Is this normal behaviour from a mother? *Content warning: concerns childhood abuse

[Anonin40s]

When I was a kid - about 4yo - I went to the loo for a pee. I screamed when I peed, as it burnt and my mother immediately came running in and scooped me up so my genitals were at her face level (my grandmother was holding my upper body up). My mum was wiping me. I never explained what happened to her, it was like she knew exactly what was wrong with me. I've never had this sensation since caring for my own body, and I can't relate to what might have happened or caused this. Why did my mum know as soon as i screamed?

When I was between 6-8 years old, my mum decided to tell me about menstruation. She took me into bed with her and told me about what happens. I don't remember much of her explanation, but I remember her 'affectionately' patting my vulva through my clothes, while we were in bed, whilst explaining menstruation to me.

In adulthood, my mother has pulled my bikini top off me in a playful way whilst sunbathing. I was not appreciative of this, but I was left with nowhere to challenge her because she became furious at the sight of my pierced nipple (I was maybe 19).

And to my shame, as a heavily-pregnant grown ass adult at 30, my mother insisted on giving me a relaxing massage. I started with some clothes off, but she eventually encouraged me to take everything off, including my knickers. I lay there wondering why I was completely naked, being massaged by my mother, when my genitals had absolutely nothing to do with anything.

I rarely talk to her now. I wouldn't let this happen now (I'm in my 40s). But I have noticed she does not honour my children's privacy when they use use shower at her house. It's only in recent months have I started to question how normal any of these incidents are. And only in recent months I've began to notice it in the context of other ways she violates boundaries.

Am I being crazy to even give these memories another thought? I couldn't imagine touching my children in these ways, or violating their boundaries by ripping their clothes off - even if it was 'just' 'playful'.

This is probably incoherent, which I apologise for. I've been quite upset for a number of hours, going over things in my mind.

Absolutely not normal.

Mother-daughter sexual abuse is rare, and is rarely talked about, but sadly it does happen.

Please do not leave your children alone with her. Don't let them change clothes, go swimming, stay over, etc. Ever. I would strongly suggest you go no contact with her but I appreciate you may not feel ready for that.

You may benefit from speaking to NAPAC - you need support working through these memories.

No, YANBU, that sounds extremely worrying. Is her access to your DC supervised at all times? I’d put a stop to the showering business immediately, and probably all access TBH. Get some therapy and look at how to protect your children.

It might be an idea to ask MNHQ to add a trigger warning to your title.

No you're not being crazy, and you are making perfect sense. It sounds like your boundaries, physical and emotional, were repeatedly violated by your mother, and that she is now repeating the pattern with your children.

It's totally understandable that you have a lot of strong feelings about your mother's behaviour. Please don't feel like you need to put them away or minimise them or 'get over it'. You're starting to explore some very confusing and strange experiences that you had in the past, and that is a really valuable thing to do. I would strongly recommend professional support for you with this process. Would you consider seeing a therapist? A professional person would support you as you explore these memories further and make sense of them

Very strongly agree with the advice to keep your children away from your mother

No this is absolutely not normal. My mother certainly never behaved like this . I too would be concerned about leaving children with her unsupervised

No this absolutely is not normal in the slightest. Keep your children away from her.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

Absolutely not normal.

Mother-daughter sexual abuse is rare, and is rarely talked about, but sadly it does happen.

Please do not leave your children alone with her. Don't let them change clothes, go swimming, stay over, etc. Ever. I would strongly suggest you go no contact with her but I appreciate you may not feel ready for that.

You may benefit from speaking to NAPAC - you need support working through these memories.

Thank you for your NAPAC suggestion. I tried. I couldn't get through and I struggle to keep my attention for long enough to even write an email, at times. I'm very isolated. I really appreciate being seen here in this moment, especially as I've just given a very brief account of a couple of things that I remember happening.

I rarely talk to her now. I wouldn't let this happen now (I'm in my 40s). But I have noticed she does not honour my children's privacy when they use use shower at her house

This does not make sense. If you rarely talk to her, how are your children having showers at her house?

@Thoosa

No, YANBU, that sounds extremely worrying. Is her access to your DC supervised at all times? I’d put a stop to the showering business immediately, and probably all access TBH. Get some therapy and look at how to protect your children.

It might be an idea to ask MNHQ to add a trigger warning to your title.

My kids' access to her is now supervised by me at all times. It hasn't always been. I have only unearthed this stuff properly in recent months, and it's been like watching a car crash in slow motion.

I don't know how to get MMHQ to add a trigger warning. I'm so sorry to anyone who has felt triggered by this post.

I would go no contact with her, but my kids still want a relationship with their grandparents. I have lots of problems with my mother. I am isolated with no family support and I am considered crazy. Thank you for responding to this. I have normalised these memories because they were with my mother.

'I would go no contact with her, but my kids still want a relationship with their grandparents'

OP, it's for you to decide as the parent what is in your children's best interests. This woman has a history of highly abusive behaviour towards you. Your children need to be protected from her

I really don’t understand the end of the first paragraph. Do you mean by wiping you, she made you better? Examining a 4 year olds genitals possibly ok given there was something wrong with you but to be honest I’d just bung my child in the bath with some bicarb and assume it was a uti and call the doctor rather than examining her.

All the rest is definitely not normal at all.

@DietrichandDiMaggio

I rarely talk to her now. I wouldn't let this happen now (I'm in my 40s). But I have noticed she does not honour my children's privacy when they use use shower at her house

This does not make sense. If you rarely talk to her, how are your children having showers at her house?

We have an almost estranged relationship. I've kept minimal contact because my kids want a relationship with my parents. They have stayed over at my parents' house without me, in the past. When they were little, I wouldn't have thought twice about her being part of their personal care. However, in recent months, my own memories have begun to surface and I have begun to see everything with different eyes. My kids have a relationship with her separate to me. If they choose to have no relationship with her, then that can happen.

Once I started to consider these moments that I'd normalised in my head, I began to look at my kids' interactions with her and said to them to always lock the door when using the bathroom, to make sure they've always got clothes on.

Then, I realised that I would need to be present at all times, to ensure their safety.

Then, I began to doubt my own sanity and wondered if I was making things into something that they're not.

Then I came here to check.

@NotNotNotMyName

I really don’t understand the end of the first paragraph. Do you mean by wiping you, she made you better? Examining a 4 year olds genitals possibly ok given there was something wrong with you but to be honest I’d just bung my child in the bath with some bicarb and assume it was a uti and call the doctor rather than examining her.

All the rest is definitely not normal at all.

Yeh, sorry that wasn't that clear. She scooped me up so my vulva was at her face level, I think she held one of my legs or both on her shoulders. As soon as I screamed, she came running in. I hadn't screamed, 'my fanny is burning!' But the second she came in, it was like she knew what was wrong. The way she handled me was weird. I don't know what she wiped my genitals with, but it was a tissue or cloth. I just can't understand what happened to me in that moment. It was never explained to me why I was burning. My kids have penises, so their anatomy is different to mine. Is this a usual thing to happen to girls?

My kids have a relationship with her separate to me. If they choose to have no relationship with her, then that can happen

You are the adult responsible for protecting your DC, you know your mother is not a safe person for your DC to be near. Your DC will not have the life experience or maturity to recognise what your mother is doing, you are only understanding that in your forties. Your DC safety is more important than what they want (or are being manipulated to believe they want) you need serious support to unravel your childhood experiences please get support for yourself and act to protect your DC.

"I would go no contact with her, but my kids still want a relationship with their grandparents"

Not all relatives are nice and kind and some of them are actively abusive. She abused you repeatedly as a child and now she is turning her attention to your children. It matters not either that you are there with them because the damage to them from your mother can also be done right in front of your very eyes; a look or a pinch for instance.

They are also not the arbiters of the relationship here, you are. Your children need to be protected from your abusive mother and you're the one who can do that. They are counting on you to protect them from such malign influences.

Keep trying with NAPAC as well; what happened to you here is not your fault and you are not to blame. This is all on your mother.

Where is your dad here; I ask only as he is not mentioned.

My dad is her enabler. My brother is a senior mental health nurse.

My mum has warned me to never come between her and my dad. I get the impression my brother thinks our childhoods were amazing, that my mother is an angel.

I feel like if I tell them, I will be villainised and disbelieved, or made to feel like I'm making things bigger than they are.

I'm estranged from my husband (their dad). He was abusive in our relationship.

I was ostracised because of the partner I chose.

I sound like an utter victim and I hate this.

I do need to keep the kids away from my mother. I want her to know why, I want my brother and my dad to know why. I have no support in challenging my mother.

I don't know how to do this.

"I am isolated with no family support and I am considered crazy".

The red flags are flying here re your family of origin and people from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. You are not crazy at all, infact you are likely the sanest one of the lot out of your dysfunctional family of origin. Also with family like your mother its far better to cut her off.

Is your brother younger than you?.

Challenging your mother and otherwise making her want to hear you will be a complete waste of time. Your dad and brother will close ranks around her because they also do not want to be on the receiving end.

Such people also never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Your dad has also abjectly failed you also as a parent by throwing you under the bus and failing to protect you from her abuses of you. He is truly a weak bystander of a man along with he being her secondary abuser. Women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them. .

Yes, my brother is younger than me by two years. My mother was very, very beautiful. My dad wasn't so blessed with good looks. I feel like he's rolled over and tolerated so much just because she was beautiful. I don't know.

I think you're you're about my brother and dad closing ranks on her. It feels so painful to admit to myself that this is probably the case.

I have literally just shared four small accounts of stuff that happened to me by my mother and no matter how everyone here has framed it, they have seen what I've said and not tried to explain it away.

I don't get why she's like this. I don't get what caused this to happen.

I'm so sorry you went through this. As others have said I think you would really benefit from being able to talk this through with a professional. And I would not let your children have contact.

It's not normal. I'm so sorry. Keep your kids away from her.

My kids have never even met my mother in law - they are completely OK with this and it's not harmed them in the slightest.

On the flip side, you maintaining contact definitely could.

Keep your kids safe - no 1 priority.

OP

“Yeh, sorry that wasn't that clear. She scooped me up so my vulva was at her face level, I think she held one of my legs or both on her shoulders. As soon as I screamed, she came running in. I hadn't screamed, 'my fanny is burning!' But the second she came in, it was like she knew what was wrong. The way she handled me was weird. I don't know what she wiped my genitals with, but it was a tissue or cloth. I just can't understand what happened to me in that moment. It was never explained to me why I was burning. My kids have penises, so their anatomy is different to mine. Is this a usual thing to happen to girls?”

No not normal at all. Given she seemed to know what was wrong, is there a possibility that something else may have happened before this to cause the pain, which you have blocked out?

Hi OP, my mother gave me no personal space as a child. She used foul language to describe my genitals and would "explain" to me, when I was just a primary school aged child, that no-one would ever "want to fuck me".

She also used to tell me explicit details about her performing oral sex on my father.

She would touch me inappropriately.

My experience, when I talk about this to other people, is that they victim shame far more readily than if the perpetrator is male. I am unsure why. There's an expectation perhaps that females should know how to protect themselves from other females? Or perhaps an unwillingness to accept that sexual abuse can happen between females too. At any rate, it adds to the humiliation and makes me less keen to talk about what happened or to "unpack" it.

I have a 9 year old girl, who has suffered, since she was in nappies, with UTIs. They are a particular issue in the summer when I get the paddling pool out, especially if I use those pool cleaning tablets. I assume she has a very short urethra but I am confident she isn't being abused. (This is going somewhere).

When I have mentioned it in passing around my mother (with whom I am also grey rock, but have a vague relationship with) she immediately says there must be sexual abuse happening. She talks about it vehemently.
I find it upsetting and ask her to stop making these statements. But she will not. I cannot discern whether she: 1. Gets a sick sense of pleasure out of talking about taboo subjects or; 2. Assumes everyone is inappropriately messing with their daughter's vaginas and warning me that I'll get caught. 🤢

I do not leave any of my children alone with her. Not even for a few hours.

When I was about 9 and started developing UTIs regularly, my mother reigned in some of her more inappropriate touching (and confined it mostly to my budding breasts instead.)
Nb. My mother didn't penetrate me (that I remember) but she did used to lock me in my bedroom for hours and hours at a time, without access to water or a toilet, which caused the UTIs.

Anyway, OP, there is a possibility that your mother might have taken the abuse further and knew it might risk a UTI / panicked when you developed a UTI (related or not).

I am so sorry for what you are going through. It is so intense.

I’m so sorry that you went through this.

My first thought when reading about screaming in pain when you were on the toilet and her reaction is that she knew that you had been sexually abused and knew why you were hurting although obviously I wasn’t there.

Do you know why these memories have come out now?

Would you feel able to speak to your GP? They can put you in contact with organisations that can help you.

How old are your dc?