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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't know what to do now

43 replies

Notsuchaniceguy · 20/02/2022 10:53

Apologies, long post from a man.

DW and I have tried to rebuild after agreeing to separate (I raised it) in early Jan. together 20 years, no kids of our own, mine and hers adult. Came together in an emotional affair for both of us, went from meetings at work, after work to living together straight away. Huge suspicion and mistrust that I would leave her, have affairs, by DW for many years, some really horrible rows, never physical although DW would often stop me leaving a room and I was quite capable of storming off from house. Various money problems and pressure to split from family but we stayed together out of sheer bloody mindedness. Then 8 years ago I kissed someone else whilst drunk. I don't know why, I didn't even like them much. Maybe I wanted a way out? Maybe a narcissist act of self destruction. We sort of got past it but it remains a trauma memory for DW.

After agreeing split in January we agreed to try Relate. I moved back into bedroom and we were intimate again for the first time in 3 or 4 years. Not entirely successfully TBH. We have talked a lot, almost always about my failings. I have done a lot of reading on here and in various books and we concluded I was in part, maybe fully, a vulnerable narcissist. I certainly think I'm a really shitty human being, always have been. I was an unwanted child. So was DW. Neither of us were loved by our parents.

We spoke more yesterday and I spoke about maybe not being able to love someone properly, not having empathy. Although I do love my children. In journey home from an afternoon out DW said some things about me that became increasingly critical and attacking, some mocking, some awful to hear that she thought about me and my behaviour. But mixed up with saying she loved me didn't want to lose me. Back home it continued and I said then we had reached an end. DW became very very angry, threw a tin of biscuits. Hard. Not at me but for a moment I really thought she was going to. Then she ordered me to leave the house. I said no as I had no idea if she would let me back in. We own it together. She threw some clothes outside and then said she was calling the police. So I left. I was parked up in a lay-by booking a Travelodge when she appeared in her car, having tracked me on my phone. Full of apologies, said she regretted all the things she had said and done and said she hadn't called police, just faked her side of the call. It sounded real to me though. So I went home.

DW said her anger was because I am breaking her heart. I think this is true but I don't see a way back. I think we are a horrible toxic mix now. I am a narcissistic self-absorbed shit who should not have relationships and DW is someone for whom intense emotions are expressed as anger. She can be cruel and mocking. Doing 'impersonations' of me (sing song voices, air quotes) was quite common although until yesterday almost gone since we agreed to try again. I go 'calm' and undermining with logic. But yesterday was a whole new level. I absolutely get she was hurting badly. I know if I agree yesterday never happened we can return to our version of normal. But should I do that? DW said yesterday she lives in fear of me. I asked her why she stayed and she then said fear meant anxiety, worrying about upsetting me. She said I sulk whereas she blows up and forgets about things. I'd say I live with anxiety about upsetting her. We both walk on eggshells and have always done.

I feel shell shocked today. I feel I want to record our conversations, I don't trust my memories, we argue over what was said a few minutes before, how it was said. I want to leave today, go to a hotel for a few days but I am afraid about whether she will change the locks or hurt herself. She never has before but she said yesterday she nearly walked under a car to see if I'd even notice.

But maybe this is all my narcissist stuff in play. I wonder now if I do and say things and then genuinely don't recall them or genuinely recall them said in a different tone or with different words. Is that how it is for some narcissists? In a sense I'm scared now of both of us and what we are capable of.

We haven't spoken today. DW is in bed. I have no idea what to say.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 20/02/2022 16:23

@Notsuchaniceguy I am sorry things are so hard at the moment.

It sounds like your relationship is very complicated and your own understanding of yourself is also complicated.

If I were in your shoes I would look into some counselling, not necessarily relationship counselling but just fir yourself. To work out what is best for you.

Good luck.

Pinkbonbon · 20/02/2022 16:37

Why do you want to.stay together?
Neither of you are happy right? So why are tou prolonging the torture.

Relationships are supposed to be happy. They're supposed to allow your personalities to flourish and encourage the best of you both to shine.

Not only does this relationship not meet the bare minimum of doing thìs, its literally the opposite.

Do both of you a favour and end things in a civil manner and get the hell away from one another.
Then consider some therapy as an individual to help you get to the bottom of why you have stayed in a toxic relationship for so long .

Notsuchaniceguy · 20/02/2022 16:57

@Pinkbonbon

Why do you want to.stay together? Neither of you are happy right? So why are tou prolonging the torture.

Relationships are supposed to be happy. They're supposed to allow your personalities to flourish and encourage the best of you both to shine.

Not only does this relationship not meet the bare minimum of doing thìs, its literally the opposite.

Do both of you a favour and end things in a civil manner and get the hell away from one another.
Then consider some therapy as an individual to help you get to the bottom of why you have stayed in a toxic relationship for so long .

So from speaking today DW is adamant she loves me and doesn't want me to leave, that she won't ever be happy without me. She wants me to stay, sleep alongside her. What right do I have to hurt someone to be more at peace myself is my question I go round and round with and have done for years.

Like most relationships that are awful in parts it isn't always that. We can have good times. Holidays are usually good - less eggshells, less tension. DW says if we had more money we'd be happier. DW says I can love her if I make an effort as she makes an effort to love me. Is love supposed to be an effort to find? I get it requires tending and work to maintain. But effort?

OP posts:
PussInBin20 · 20/02/2022 17:07

It sounds toxic and shouldn’t be this hard. Maybe your relationship has just run it’s course. Neither of you sound happy.

I expect she is just scared of change.

You say you agreed to go to Relate - did you go/did it help?

Pinkbonbon · 20/02/2022 17:07

Op, on a similar vein- if you don't love someone and life life them involves walking on eggs shells and tension - what right do you have to stay with them? Irrelagelrdless what they want. Because you will nevr make them happy and because there is someone else who could out there in the world for her (and you). IF I genuinely believe you are that much of a martyr.

You both deserve someone who loves you and who makes you happy and who.treats you right.

Also, narcissists don't tend to have the level of introspection you are displaying here. They don't think about sacrificing their wants and desires to maintain a relationship. Of course, you could be having us on so that we come on here and say 'oh but you can't be a narcissist, because of this' but I dunno. Just pointing it out.

And no, love is not supposed to be an effort. It is as easy as breathing. That doesn't mean that relationships don't sometimes take work. But you should only undertake that work if they are healthy for the most part and worth saving. 'Good when we are on holiday' is not worth saving.

Come on op. I'm not sure I believe you genuinely hate yourself this much. But if you do, get a shrink. And either way, get yourself single.

Crikeyalmighty · 20/02/2022 17:08

If there’s a fundamental friction like this in a relationship, I can assure your wife having a lot more money really doesn’t sort it out. I know from experience.

supercali77 · 20/02/2022 17:08

This just sounds traumatic. Do you actually love her? Does she actually love you? What does that mean when you are seemingly both busy rubbing each other up the wrong way. Dont go around diagnosing yourself, do you act in ways that you know to be harmful to her emotionally? Does she do the same in return.

Aquamarine1029 · 20/02/2022 17:12

Your marriage is a toxic nightmare, and you are allowing your wife to manipulate you. The only sensible course of action is to separate and divorce. This is no way to live.

MunchyMonsters · 20/02/2022 17:13

Why do you think you are narcissistic ? You show good insight.

It partly feels like to are being gaslighted

chillied · 20/02/2022 17:15

Come on OP. Get packing. Pack your stuff then you don't need to worry if she changes the locks. Pack, find an airbag or something, leave. Start divorce process. There is no future in your relationship. What does it matter what she says about apparently loving you... you know at heart she mocks you, is angry.

You don't even have joint kids to worry about!

chillied · 20/02/2022 17:16

airbnb not airbag!

billy1966 · 20/02/2022 17:23

I think you need to separate but if she is threatening the police then you need to ring 101 and tell them you left the house last night because of her threats to contact them.

I would be protecting myself on that score.

See a solicitor and seperate.

Notsuchaniceguy · 20/02/2022 17:33

@MunchyMonsters

Why do you think you are narcissistic ? You show good insight.

It partly feels like to are being gaslighted

Sometimes it does feel like that. But I'd say we do it to each other. I'm not entirely convinced that narcissism, like any personality type, is all or nothing, much more a spectrum of behaviours that can also be influenced by the behaviours of others. Albeit with some people being a long way down one end a lot/all of the time.

DW is afraid of change as someone said. She married two people before me to escape her family in the first and to have children with/settle for the second. Then we had our affair. I married first time because I thought no-one else would ever have me. In fact my mother actually told me that. So neither of us have much of a track record of marrying for love as we married each other after our cruel exit affairs.

I think DW would feel hugely afraid to have a third marriage fail. Her family would not be supportive of her, instead very "I told you so". She has, like me, very low self esteem and also no confidence she'd find anyone else. I guess the difference is that I've moved to thinking that actually I'd be OK if I never did whereas DW is nowhere near that place. I don't think she can see being single as anything other than being alone, lonely, poor and unlovable. And that is a horrible fear to have.

OP posts:
Notsuchaniceguy · 20/02/2022 17:40

@billy1966

I think you need to separate but if she is threatening the police then you need to ring 101 and tell them you left the house last night because of her threats to contact them.

I would be protecting myself on that score.

See a solicitor and seperate.

She denies she called then last night. She says she would never do that, never hurt me that way. She says all her really unkind things are said when she is hurting and so are a defence and not borne of anger. I disagree on that, when you throw things and want to lash out you are angry. I had never seen her that angry as last night. It was genuinely shocking. I know I am really hurting her.

I think we have to wait for Relate work - maybe a third person can see us in ways we can't see ourselves. We have had assessment, we wait for sessions now.

OP posts:
LeifSan · 20/02/2022 17:42

Why do you want to be with someone who has ‘helped’ you to self-diagnose as basically a total cunt? And does the sort of things she does? She sounds vile.

Pinkbonbon · 20/02/2022 17:43

It is a horrible fear to have. But it's not your responsibility to save her from it. Especially considering doing so, condemns her to an unhappy marriage.

It sounds like you both need individual therapy to work through your low self esteem issues.

It's good that you've recognised some of your issues. She might not be in a place to do that yet. But you both need to be single. Potentially permanently, as opposed to getting with people thinking that they will heal your issues. Because they won't. Only the individual can do that.

She needs to break away from her toxic family entirely. And you need to break away from her.

Pinkbonbon · 20/02/2022 17:45

Relate cannot help you in relationships every there is rage, gaslighting, manipulation and abuse.

It exists to help emotionaly healthy couples who are going through hard times. Not to put a plaster over the gaping wound of toxicity.

Movingonup22 · 20/02/2022 18:08

Cripes just leave. You’re not helping yourself or her.

Rip the bandaid off. You are responsible for you and she is responsible for her.

It is actually that simple once you cut through it all.

candycane222 · 20/02/2022 19:41

Just because shes frightened of you leaving does not mean you need to stay, or indeed, mean that it's in any way a good thing for her either.

Sunseasun · 20/02/2022 19:55

This sounds horrible op.

I don’t think you should stay together for he reasons you listed. Just because you both feel you won’t find someone else is not a good enough reason. So what if you don’t? What’s wrong with being single and at peace over this?

Also what’s this narcissist stuff? Is she a mental health professional?

Italiangreyhound · 20/02/2022 19:56

MunchyMonsters "Why do you think you are narcissistic ? You show good insight.

It partly feels like to are being gaslighted"

I felt this too, that your assumption you are a narcissist may be wrong! I think just some plain old counselling could help you to work out where you are and what you want.

HoneyRose87 · 20/02/2022 21:11

There appears to be co-dependency going on here. You also sound like you have very low self-esteem and have low standards due to your upbringing. I would work on yourself and get some therapy, this relationship is not doing you both any good.

Notsuchaniceguy · 21/02/2022 08:01

@Italiangreyhound

MunchyMonsters "Why do you think you are narcissistic ? You show good insight.

It partly feels like to are being gaslighted"

I felt this too, that your assumption you are a narcissist may be wrong! I think just some plain old counselling could help you to work out where you are and what you want.

Well maybe we gaslight each other at times? I think we both now struggle to remember what was said, what happened when, what level of emotion was involved. We are both prone to tell the other "you are thinking/feeling, you must be thinking/feeling...." really unhelpful ways to communicate.

I am actually more convinced that I'm a narcissist than DW is although she has said I have traits. I doubt I'd get a formal diagnosis of NPD but I think I fit the popular definitions at times.

I think @Pinkbonbon suggested to the effect that a narcissist might well paint a picture of themselves in order to have others say they weren't one. I am trying not to be that person who seeks sympathy for 'poor me'. But reading this thread back I see I have done exactly that. Do narcissists know they do what they do when they do it I wonder?

Thank you all for your advice. Lots of work for me to do on me and so much to think about for DW and me.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 21/02/2022 08:08

I think we both now struggle to remember what was said, what happened when, what level of emotion was involved.
I think this is normal when emotions are high? It's easier to remember what was said to you than what you said.

Gey rid of the labels. It's not helpful to try to identify whether or not you are a narcissist. It's probably quite damaging in fact.

I think you need to see a counsellor yourself to understand yourself better. Then you can decide what to do about your marriage.

She sounds awful though.

EvenMoreFuriousVexation · 21/02/2022 08:21

You've got to get out of this OP. Do NOT enter joint counselling with this woman. You are in an abusive relationship - whether there is abuse on both sides or just one, there is clearly abuse and counselling cannot work on that basis.

Get therapy for yourself and work on your self esteem. You need to walk away from this got both your sakes. On your own you could be a stable, sensible person, with work on your own issues. Together you are a toxic car crash.

She has spent 20 years punishing you for the way in which you BOTH got together. Fuck me, if you'd committed armed robbery you'd have been out of prison years ago! Set yourself, and her, free.

And if she wants more money, what action has she taken to get it?