Abuse or toxic relationship - and what's the difference?

[Gingembre]

I keep going in circles about this so I'm asking here to get some outside-my-head opinions. Is this abuse or am I being unfair/exaggerating if I call if that.

I'm in a marriage that I am ending - hopefully soon. He has never been violent with me. Never even a threat of it, to me. Some of the things that have happened since we got together 15 years ago:

• I have been gaslit every single time I even vaguely challenged him on anything.
• for about 14 years, he walked out when I talked, talked over me, or plain didn't listen. And then when I challenged him on that, he'd deny it! (Literally would have to walk back in to deny it and accuse me of being unfair to him!)
• he would have a discussion with me about some important thing and agree to something, then when I later brought it up, he'd deny we had the discussion, deny he'd agreed or say he'd completely forgotten the discussion.
• I'm allowed to think whatever I want about anything, but if he has an opinion in it, I have to think the same as him
• he used to control what I ate by whining (a lot) if I ate something he didn't want me to
• I used to have to go to bed when he did (10pm earlier than normal for me) or he'd whine about being lonely in bed, I was being unhealthy, I needed to sleep. To stop the whining I'd go, then lie there for a good hour awake. I eventually decided the whining was easier to deal with than lying awake in the dark.
• checked everything I spent money on for a while to make sure I didn't think I was going to be a "spoilt expat wife", which I'd never shown any hint of bring anyway. We had just moved countries back to his home country, I couldn't speak the language well and I was pregnant. I was only shopping at the supermarket and pharmacy. I had to account for everything. He would check the accounts and ask me what things were if it wasn't clear. He got angry (never violent) if I couldn't remember and said it was because I "didn't know the value of money" and everything I forgot was further proof of my incompetence (which used to be good with money).
• I had to stop language classes when I was pregnant because he was unhappy with the level of housework I wasn't doing. I was exhausted from the pregnancy, we were only two adults there, and I had a lot of homework from the class (in his language) and I was doing housework every day.
• he's on a six figure salary and we have no support nearby (not in his country now). When I wanted childcare so I could study at uni he said no, we couldn't afford it. I couldn't access the account to just take the money so ended up having to study part-time, online (no part time options near me) - over a far longer period of time. NOT what I wanted.
• I told him, in the presence of a couples therapist, so he couldn't "forget" what I'd said, I wanted a divorce. He has refused to move out. We're abroad and I can't leave/rent somewhere alone etc because of my income, the housing market and laws with regards the kids. He knows this, he wants me here for childcare when he's at work (he's actually said this to me) so he hasn't gone. We even downsized, and bought a second place but he moved in here with me and rented the other one out. This was not a misunderstanding on my part btw.
• For years (hence the therapist) he said he couldn't have sex with me because a) I didn't welcome him home nicely, so he didn't feel comfortable, b) I wasn't fair to him c) I didn't keep the house tidy enough so he didn't feel relaxed (we had TWO cleaners at that point, both of whom were good) and I forget the other reasons, but suffice to say, they were my fault/due to my faulty character. And it wasn't only sex, it was any form of physical intimacy - hugs and kisses too.
• he didn't tell me not to see my friends, but he made clear to me he disapproved of them and saw them as a manifestation of my inability to make good choices. His friends were all lawyers and doctors and engineers. Mine were more like artists, passionate people, who usually were not financially flush. He thought they had all made mistakes in choosing their crafts/trades/line of work and wouldn't support me seeing them.

It's long, sorry, but when I write this, it seems like nothing. I feel a fraud to refer to it as abuse. But is it? Or is it "toxic"?

If it matters, these things (plus others) have broken me. I'm completely unrecognisable to people I knew before him, both in terms of physique and energy levels.

It's controlling, it's toxic AND abusive.
Run! And don't look back.

Oh! I didn't expect that answer. I thought I'd be asked why I stayed if I'm complaining about these things.

Where's the line between toxic and abusive though? Sorry, I genuinely find it hard to know.

Does it matter? Toxic or abusive are not good qualities in a relationship so you're right to separate.

Look up trauma bonding and abusive relationships OP.

Get the kids’ passports and get the heck out of there. I know you’re abroad but call women’s aid. Look up coercive control including financial abuse which is against the law here in the U.K. as it’s a form of domestic abuse (without violence). I don’t know which country you’re in but if it’s a country that gives the fathers the custody you need to make a plan and run.

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/coercive-control/

You can call it abusive or toxic or whatever else but the fact is it his is domestic abuse here in the U.K. Please get help.

There doesn't have to be physical violence, or even the threat of it for someone to be abusive. This is definitely abuse.

Yes he is abusive and controlling

@Gingembre

Oh! I didn't expect that answer. I thought I'd be asked why I stayed if I'm complaining about these things.

Where's the line between toxic and abusive though? Sorry, I genuinely find it hard to know.

A relationship can be both toxic and abusive. Can I ask why it matters if it’s one or the other?

Thank you all - I'll take a look at the links/terms.

I cannot leave the country with the kids without his permission (plus I have nowhere to go to in the U.K. or anywhere else if I did). Many countries are signed up to The Hague Convention on child abduction like the one I'm in now. That means I'd be charged with kidnap if I left, the kids would be returned to him and I wouldn't get custody - I'd have to see them in a supervision centre. At least I've changed my visa and can remain here in my own right - previously I was tied to his. I can't leave my house here either as I have nowhere to go here and as he's not violent, I'd not get a place in a shelter. It's a shit situation, which has worked out well for him.

I've got an appointment with a lawyer very soon. Hopefully she can get him out and get my divorce through!

I have to say, he's really nice to everybody else and can be to me. It's hard to get my head around these things that have happened/are happening. I feel like I'm a fraud to use the words "I've been in an abusive relationship". I think it would have helped if he'd been violent just once. Not that I actually want that experience (grew up in a violent home, so know I don't want any of that!)

@Gingembre You are in a toxic and highly abusive relationship.
This article may answer your question:
cerebral-sexuality.com/2018/07/31/toxic-relationships-vs-abusive-relationships/
Please tell your family and friends what you're going through. Abuse flourishes when there is secrecy around it. Make plans to leave as soon as you can.

A relationship can be both toxic and abusive. Can I ask why it matters if it’s one or the other?

Because I have the impression, now that I think about it, that "toxic" could involve both parties adding the toxicity, whereas "abuse" would be only one way. Or that in "toxic" relationship there can be a balance of power. And again, as I think about it, I do not think there's a balance with us. I think it matters because I don't want to take the blame, even implicitly, for it because I've taken the blame for everything since the beginning. I've had enough of his behaviour always being at least partly my fault. Toxic could be two people who aren't good together - I think. Abuse places blame on one party.

So I guess iI'm trying to understand if I'm thinking of these terms correctly. At the same time I'm very afraid of one term and afraid I could be exaggerating by using the other. And that exaggeration would be hugely insulting to people who have actually been in an abusive relationship.

Not sure if that last post makes much sense. Half my brain seems to switch off when I think about this.

Sorry OP he sounds like a typical abusive man. Charming to everyone but he will also be nice to you to make you second guess yourself. If he’s horrible all the time you wouldn’t be asking yourself and us if there’s anything wrong with your relationship. They mess with your head where you don’t trust your own judgement. There is a book called Why does he do that? I also think it’s worth contacting women’s aid for clarity and they might put you in contact with organisations in your country as the situation you are in is common where women are trapped due to the country’s laws and not recognising abuse unless it’s obvious violence but it’s great you’re getting a lawyer. I’m sorry you’re in this situation and hope you get to leave him safety with access to your kids

I think there definitely is a power imbalance he earns the money and he’s using you for childcare and you feel trapped and the law is against you. Just because you don’t feel powerless day to day and can stand up to him you’re still under his control. Please read that women’s aid page and try not to focus on the terms as that doesn’t really matter the point is how he makes you feel. Also there is a thing called reactive abuse where your perceived toxic behaviours are a result of how he treats you.

Sorry I didn’t read your post properly I thought you were saying there was a power balance sorry yes you’re right

Yes you’re spot on with the terms now I’m re reading your post. I think when it’s toxic it’s just looking at traits but abuse looks at it as being a systemic problem where one person is the perpetrator. We can all have toxic traits but abuse is systemic often the result of one person being toxic and controlling someone’s life by being that way. I have never really thought of the difference but your distinction makes a lot of sense.

To me, toxic means two people who just don't work together, they bring out the worst behaviours or characteristics in each other, they dont get on, even though it may be no ones fault. For example on here the other day there was a poster who hot triggered by people losing their temper and it made her over emotional and her partner got triggered by other peoples emotion and it made him angry.

Abusive means one person basically bullying and controlling the other, using their power over to them for their own advantage, causing that person physical or emotional harm.

The various things he has done to you - no access to family finances, not wanting you to go out, refusing to help facilitate you studying, constant low level criticism, gas lighting, lying, controlling you to the point of trying to change what you eat and when you slept is all emotional abuse. Quite severe emotional abuse that you will need help to recover from. Is there an equivalent of womens aid where you are? You could always try and contact them in the uk

OP, Lundy Bancroft’s ‘Why Does He Do That’ has saved many women from abusive relationships. I hope you read it and that it helps you.

Here’s a link to a free PDF: ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

Even in an abusive relationship, both people play an active role: the abuser abuses, the victim sticks around to receive it.

It doesn't matter how you define it; your relationship is making you feel like shit, so you need to get out. Pulling it apart and trying to define the nature of the problem is unnecessary drama right now, like watching your house burn down with all your treasured possessions inside, and trying to work out the exact colour of the flames.

Where do you stand in terms of divorce? Which country are you in? What happens with finances?

Thanks everybody. The replies and links really help.

Where do you stand in terms of divorce? Which country are you in? What happens with finances?
I can't say where I am because it's definitely outing (to other people there). I'm not in a "bad" country in terms of human rights etc though. It is one, however, where there is protection available to victims of physical domestic violence/abuse, but emotional isn't recognised in law, unless there's serious threat of violence.

I am likely to be in a difficult financial situation after the divorce. But the thing I want most is to not have him in the house. I just want him out. The lawyer I'm going to see appears to have a handle on men like him (I had a chat with her before). So I'm hopeful. :)

In a toxic relationship you are both losers (that sounds wrong!). I mean the relationship suffers neither of you are happy. Arguments end unresolved and you are both reeling. One pushes one pulls but you are both unhappy but don't know how to change. You are human and infallible. It just isn't working but both of you want it to work but don't know how.

Abuse is when one of you is the loser and the other appears to win. Although 'winning' for the abusive person might look different to them for example it might be making you cry, starting an argument, having you beg, pouring that extra glass of wine etc. Abusers don't compromise, they don't want to agree what is healthy because they don't want to lose. They feel entitled to a relationship in their terms and will pull out all the stops to achieve it.

AfraidToRun
DH talks ALL the talk of your first paragraph there.

I have been living your second paragraph. It feels like I'm up against a machine and will never beat it. It's programmed to never lose, never be wrong, ever (unless half-heartedly admitting being wrong gives it an even bigger advantage elsewhere).

I feel like a chump for not spotting and understanding all this years ago. I've spotted abusive relationships of friends and helped them through them splitting up ..NEVER thinking mine was, primarily because he's such a nice, normal bloke (not charming) and I'm clearly not doing something right as I'm failing at everything. Or that's how it felt. I wasn't failing, I'd just - "just" - been broken.