Abuse or toxic relationship - and what's the difference?

[Gingembre]

I keep going in circles about this so I'm asking here to get some outside-my-head opinions. Is this abuse or am I being unfair/exaggerating if I call if that.

I'm in a marriage that I am ending - hopefully soon. He has never been violent with me. Never even a threat of it, to me. Some of the things that have happened since we got together 15 years ago:

• I have been gaslit every single time I even vaguely challenged him on anything.
• for about 14 years, he walked out when I talked, talked over me, or plain didn't listen. And then when I challenged him on that, he'd deny it! (Literally would have to walk back in to deny it and accuse me of being unfair to him!)
• he would have a discussion with me about some important thing and agree to something, then when I later brought it up, he'd deny we had the discussion, deny he'd agreed or say he'd completely forgotten the discussion.
• I'm allowed to think whatever I want about anything, but if he has an opinion in it, I have to think the same as him
• he used to control what I ate by whining (a lot) if I ate something he didn't want me to
• I used to have to go to bed when he did (10pm earlier than normal for me) or he'd whine about being lonely in bed, I was being unhealthy, I needed to sleep. To stop the whining I'd go, then lie there for a good hour awake. I eventually decided the whining was easier to deal with than lying awake in the dark.
• checked everything I spent money on for a while to make sure I didn't think I was going to be a "spoilt expat wife", which I'd never shown any hint of bring anyway. We had just moved countries back to his home country, I couldn't speak the language well and I was pregnant. I was only shopping at the supermarket and pharmacy. I had to account for everything. He would check the accounts and ask me what things were if it wasn't clear. He got angry (never violent) if I couldn't remember and said it was because I "didn't know the value of money" and everything I forgot was further proof of my incompetence (which used to be good with money).
• I had to stop language classes when I was pregnant because he was unhappy with the level of housework I wasn't doing. I was exhausted from the pregnancy, we were only two adults there, and I had a lot of homework from the class (in his language) and I was doing housework every day.
• he's on a six figure salary and we have no support nearby (not in his country now). When I wanted childcare so I could study at uni he said no, we couldn't afford it. I couldn't access the account to just take the money so ended up having to study part-time, online (no part time options near me) - over a far longer period of time. NOT what I wanted.
• I told him, in the presence of a couples therapist, so he couldn't "forget" what I'd said, I wanted a divorce. He has refused to move out. We're abroad and I can't leave/rent somewhere alone etc because of my income, the housing market and laws with regards the kids. He knows this, he wants me here for childcare when he's at work (he's actually said this to me) so he hasn't gone. We even downsized, and bought a second place but he moved in here with me and rented the other one out. This was not a misunderstanding on my part btw.
• For years (hence the therapist) he said he couldn't have sex with me because a) I didn't welcome him home nicely, so he didn't feel comfortable, b) I wasn't fair to him c) I didn't keep the house tidy enough so he didn't feel relaxed (we had TWO cleaners at that point, both of whom were good) and I forget the other reasons, but suffice to say, they were my fault/due to my faulty character. And it wasn't only sex, it was any form of physical intimacy - hugs and kisses too.
• he didn't tell me not to see my friends, but he made clear to me he disapproved of them and saw them as a manifestation of my inability to make good choices. His friends were all lawyers and doctors and engineers. Mine were more like artists, passionate people, who usually were not financially flush. He thought they had all made mistakes in choosing their crafts/trades/line of work and wouldn't support me seeing them.

It's long, sorry, but when I write this, it seems like nothing. I feel a fraud to refer to it as abuse. But is it? Or is it "toxic"?

If it matters, these things (plus others) have broken me. I'm completely unrecognisable to people I knew before him, both in terms of physique and energy levels.

He may not be violent but the rest is worst believe me. Bruises and cuts heal, scars fade psychological, mental, emotional and health in general with break down untill he's made you a shell of who you are. ere's a list of the abuse your recieving in black and white

He is financially abusive

He's isolated you from contact, moved you to a country you didn't know and cut finances of there impeding your efforts to be able to communicate or get help if needed.

Controlling food and bed time is believe it or not physical..... He's making you feel bad and your doing it to please him or avoid his temper
He has an image and you don't fit it

He gaslight you beyond belief

Clearly is a narcist

Doesn't care about anyone but himself

GET OUT!!!! THIS GETS WORST. You say your pregnant, would he want someone treating his child like he does their mother.... What example is he setting that would show different? Honestly get out. You baby will need a mum not someone who's walking in eggshells in a state of panic or anxiety, it's not healthy for the baby. You say he'd moan if you didn't go bed etc but what will he do when a child also takes that time away from him because it's a common thing for men to feel jealous over the attention their kids have from a mother..... Being a mother needs to be #1, your main priority and he's not gonna like it.

My name is Emma, I'm 34 and ill let you in a little if it helps. This is hard for me but if it stops another women going through it then I'd lay it all on the table for anyone no matter how hard.

I am speaking from 10yrs child abuse, being beaten and having bones broke by my step dad and witnessing him beat my mum to the extent I'd be dragged out the bed and forced to watch..... I almost seen my mum killed twice and she's still with him now. She was too afraid to protect me or my Siblings. Fast forward, im21 with 2 girls and 1 boy.... Entered a new relationship.... He grinded me down mentally, emotionally and psychologically doing the things your husband is..... He beat me daily for 4yrs, my youngest boy is the result of him forcing himself on me after beating me then 6 months in pushed me down stairs and kicked me 4 times in the stomach, even beat me for having a male midwife he's not involved and my son thankfully doesn't know him. I'm now 34 and suffer with psychosis and clinical manic depression. Please do what is right for you and your baby to be happy. You deserve so much more hun. I'm here anytime please feel free to message or reply

Also hun I had Stockholm syndrome. I trauma bonded to my ex because I'd grown up in it I knew no different. Was so in love with him and didn't see what he was doing as wrong or abuse.

If someone is horrible to you, by your measures and standards, what else needs to be said? All these definitions and thrown-around terms like ‘abusive’ and ‘toxic’ are often unnecessary. What you think is what counts, what you are prepared to put up with is what counts.

The fact is that if someone is nasty or unpleasant to you, they are being nasty, and unless you are in a prison cell or similar you don’t have to put up with it. If it’s a significant other - get rid. If it’s family, go NC or LC, depending on circumstances.

ps this isn’t an attack on people in difficult circumstances they find hard to leave - it’s just the semantics of the wording I don’t like. Trying to make feelings fit a ‘word’ - like a kind of permission - rather than accessing our feelings and strength to take the right action to get away, if that makes sense. Hope your legal advice is helpful to you, OP.

There are a couple of things on your list that on their own I could deal with and accept in an otherwise perfect partner.. That's about the only positive thing I can say!
But good god, run and never look back.

Ive done alot of work around domestic abuse. He is a covert abuser by the sound of it. What you need to realise is domestic abuse is so much more than just physical violence.

Please don't feel you have to give him or your relationship a specific or accurate label in order to feel justified in dumping him. Whatever you want to call it, your relationship sounds like hell and he sounds like a vile creature. It's toxic and abusive. By which I mean he is toxic and abusive.

@Gingembre The last time I checked India is not a signatory.
If I had the knowledge I have now, back when I was leaving my ex (except the passports were hidden), I would have tried to get to India.
Do you have the right to remain where you live, if you split from him?

He is highly abusive and you need to get away from. And thats all you need to know about with regards to him and the relationship for now. Because what matters at the moment is the practical stuff - the how to get out. The country you are in is very relevant. Are you from the UK? Did you know you can file for divorce in any country you are domiciled (which means you have an enduring connection to it. So if you are from the UK you can file here, which is advantageous to you. But it is a race to file first, the country filed in first takes precedence. Consider this first. And tell him nothing, give him no warning.

You could have a good case to leave the country you are in as well, you need a lawyer experience in international custody law to do this. If you have no support, no family there, no job and you have those things elsewhere your case will be considered. He may be forced to return to where you came from. But you need money to pay your lawyers. If you have marital assets and he has a high salary that can be leveraged to get the legal help you need, especially if the divorce is filed in the UK.

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea the habitual residence comes into effect when children are involved.
Or having lots and lots of money. But custody decisions would still be made in the country of habitual residence.

I well understand what habitual residence is. Its irrelevant for the purpose of divorce - I am talking about the money. For an international custody case yes habitual residence is where you cannot take the children from without Court permission. The point I am making is that if neither of you are in your home country and you have no support or income where you are then you do have a good case to get permission to move back home. But it costs a lot, which is why you need to sort the divorce and money first, and if there are assets London is the best place to do that.

Gosh! I hadn't been back to this thread since Feb and now more comments. Thank you. I am feeling a bit better at the moment but honestly I cannot be told enough that it's not me who is being unfair in this relationship.

I have to say that I've seen reporting on the Heard and Depp case (not flowing it at all) and while thankfully it's nothing like that, the commentary around it of people believing one side of the other makes be go back to the idea that there's always two sides to every story and perhaps what he's said about me is right, I just can't see it. I try to hold on to concrete things - like the finance situation - to stop myself going down a rabbit hole of self-questioning.

You cant see or start to heal from abuse while you are still in it, so you can only put that on hold and focus on the practical aspects. Time to understand and heal will be later when you are free. Good luck.

Re moving back to the UK- I actually have nowhere to go.

I am going to try and build a life here because it's my children's home and I'm getting on with the language..slowly! If it doesn't work then I'll have to see.

I have a SHL who is kind to me plus her senior lawyer "boss" is similarly SH. Sometimes I just think about them Im and it makes me smile. What is also nice is that while I can't yet get him out of the house, he's not allowed in their building! Technically he can go in but nobody there will work with him. So it's kind of my place. I don't even go there much but the fact that there is a place he's not welcome and I am is quite incredible! 😃

Got a question for you wiser than me people.

In a few weeks is a large family (his) get together. It's been planned since autumn. Extended family all coming from far away, like us. I'm included in all emails and WhatsApp groups because everybody thinks I'm coming. I thought he'd told them I'm not coming (I'm not in touch with anybody other than his mother who has been gravely ill and had surgery). He's told me he'll tell them, doesn't want me to. So, not seeing a big deal in it, and it's his family anyway, I assumed he had (why wouldn't he - "Gingembre won't be coming" isn't hard to say).

Anyway, today yet another email asking me what we're bringing for a part of a pot luck meal. He's copied so I'm leaving it to him.

But I feel SO GUILTY that these people are planning on me being there, ordered things for me (he paid!) as part of a group fun thing, have a special meal from the caterers for me (I don't eat the meat they're having - and he's paid for it too) and I'm fucking silent for MONTHS. I've even had to pretend to the kids I'm coming in case they let slip to his DM. They're know now and are sad I'm not.

It all looks like me being rude and inconsiderate, and it's true I've not said anything. And it looks to the kids like I'm withdrawing for some unknown reason. But I don't know what to say or to whom and he explicitly doesn't want me to.

Sorry this seems completely ridiculous now I'm typing it out but this sort of thing happens all the time. I end up looking rude and/or inconsiderate. I feel quite pathetic and confused - and embarrassed. Even though I'm (sadly) unlikely to see these people ever again.

What on Earth is going on?