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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Counselling unlikely to help, divorce unlikely to help. What do I do?

36 replies

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 13:57

Sorry, this is a long and complex one! I've been married to my husband for 12 years, together 15 years. We have two children, girls 6 and 10. We are at a crisis point in our marriage and are now deciding if a period of separation preceding divorce makes sense.

I need advice on if this relationship is worth saving and if counselling might be worth it? He’s not a bad person but as a couple, we have a few pretty serious issues. We both have lots of baggage from childhood. My Dad was an alcoholic manic depressive and his Dad used to violently abuse his Mum. I’ve done lots of work on my issues (counselling, daily meditation, self-hypnosis, regression therapy etc…) and I continue to work on myself daily. He’s never done any self-development work and doesn’t want to – he thinks there’s nothing wrong with him and everyone else is flawed. I’m tired of being the one doing all the emotional labour in our relationship.

I'm still in love with my husband. He feels the same way about me but we don't know if love is enough.

He is a very critical person. I cry or get emotional when he criticises me - not all the time but it builds up over time and then we have a blow out. He thinks this is me being emotionally manipulative and that I should be able to handle criticism without getting upset.

We've had two bouts of counselling already. The first time, early in our relationship, I thought we made good progress. But I only found out recently that he didn't think it was successful and that the counselling failed because I "spent the whole time lying during the sessions". He waited a decade to tell me this! He did amend his behaviour but instead of criticising me every day, he'd huff and do passive aggressive body language, keep silent but save it all up for a massive blow out every couple of months during which he'd vent everything he'd suppressed. That pattern has continued to this day.

The second spell of counselling was last year. I don't think our therapist was very good. He did give us a few useful tools though such as the 'feedback sandwich'. My husband seems incapable of giving praise though. Except to tell me I look nice when we go on a date, he doesn't praise anything else. He consistently finds fault with my parenting. This particularly grinds my gears given that I do 75% of the childcare! He said I get to be 'fun mummy' but he has to be the disciplinarian. I take them to art galleries, museums, days at the beach, parks, etc… We always ask him to come with us and would love him to but he refuses. I do actually discipline the kids. He is a perfectionist and has so many rigid and arbitrary rules, many of which I don't agree with, but I follow them anyway as I don't want to undermine his authority. However, he has no problem undermining my authority, criticising what I do in front of the children. This has led to our kids thinking he is the 'boss' and I am his subordinate and hence they now treat me with disrespect too which means it's harder for me to discipline them: a vicious circle.

Our most recent fight was over the kids' hair. Last week I picked up my daughter from school. Her gran had done her hair (our mother in law lives with us). I complemented her on it. She said “thanks” but looked sad so I asked her what was wrong. She said “Daddy asked grandma to do it because he didn't think I'd done a good job with it”. Then she said “I don't think Daddy even likes my hair”. I asked her if she had spoken to Daddy about this, she said she didn't want to as she didn't want to upset him. This made me feel really sad and was a hot button for me. We have mixed afro/euro hair and there are already so many messages in society telling us our hair is not as good as European/straight hair. I didn't want my husband's negative comments ruining her self-esteem so I resolved to mention it to him later, even though I knew this would likely end in a fight. I am trying to teach them independence so I let them do their own hair (I started doing my own hair when I was six). He doesn't agree with this and when he's getting them ready he does their hair for them - fine, he's a different person, he doesn't have to do things my way. But he is intolerant of people's differences. To him, other people's methods are not different, they are wrong.

When I told him what my daughter said, he blamed me. He said if I had tweaked it when she did it, it wouldn't have looked bad and then he wouldn’t have had to say anything. I said I'm more interested in fostering independence and positive self-worth than the way she looks. He said she'll get bullied at school if her hair doesn't look good. I said she doesn't need to get bullied at school - she already gets it at home from you. He called me a neglectful mother and said I don't care about the kids. His evidence for this is that while they're having a shower, I read a book, check emails, order the groceries to be delivered etc... I'm with them every night. He cooks them dinner then I do their homework with them, help them practice their instruments, reading practice, play games etc... Then, even after lights out, they're calling every fifteen minutes for this and that and I'm up and down the stairs for the next hour. He has them for two hours on a Saturday morning, taking them to a class. Then he checks out for the rest of the weekend and I'm left to deal with them alone. We visit my parents once a month. He refuses to come hence I'm a single parent while he gets a lovely weekend off. As I barely get any time to myself, I snatch what tiny snippets I have ie when they're in the shower, to do what I need/want to do.

He said I put so much care and attention into my other projects ie. work and my side career which I'm trying to build and transition into full-time one day, but I don't put as much care and attention into the kids. I said it’s the exact opposite - my side career is not taking off as I don’t have the time and attention to put into it given that I do the bulk of childcare. I accused him of not being supportive of my side career – he often makes comments like “lunch isn’t ready yet? What have you been doing all morning” when he gets home with the kids on a Saturday (they get back at 11h30!). He knows full well I spend that time working on my side career. He thinks he supports me as he pays more into the joint account allowing me to have a lower paying job that gives me the time for a side career. We actually pay the same percentage of our salary so although he pays more, he also earns more – a fair system IMO but it doesn’t mean he’s supporting me more. The support I need is a more equitable childcare split. When I say this to him he says he’s already ‘exhausted’ by the amount he does and it’s unfair for me to ask him to do more.

The things he accuses me of during fights would make you think I’m the worst human being on the planet. He says: I’m gaslighting him; he can’t say anything without me getting upset so now he walks on eggshells (I walk on eggshells around him because of the criticism and blame); I’m a bad listener so he’s given up talking and become a person he doesn’t recognise (I constantly try and initiate conversation by talking to him, he listens but doesn’t respond. Then later, in a fight he says I just expect him to listen all the time!) Everyone else in our life loves me – the children, his mother, our friends, my colleagues etc… Sometimes I wonder if he even likes me at all as a person. We have great chemistry in bed but aside from that we don’t have much in common.

What I’m struggling with is – I don’t know if divorce will solve our issues. Our fights revolve around how to parent the kids and around childcare. We’ll still be co-parents. It may just be costly and inconvenient. We’d still be fighting but from separate homes. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place – divorce is unlikely to solve our problems but therapy has also failed us in the past. What do I do?

OP posts:
GranolaHolmes · 12/02/2022 14:08

This sounds like a horrible way to live. what's really stopping you from ending the relationship and moving on?

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 14:23

@GranolaHolmes I still love him. He's a good father. I'm worried how divorce will impact the kids and that it might not solve anything as we'd still be arguing from separate homes.

OP posts:
DrinkFeckArseBrick · 12/02/2022 14:31

He doesnt sound like a good father!

You've said he spends the minimum time with his kids, is too strict, has lots of arbitrary rules, has to be right about everything, picks fights with you infront of them, criticises everything. He sounds, at best, a mediocre father.

Yes you would need to co parent. But you can do it your way in your house without constant criticism. You will get some time to yourself. I doubt he would want them half the time given he claims to be 'too tired' to look after them

HabitsDieHard · 12/02/2022 14:39

it doesn't sound as though you can continue like this. He admits to lying during counselling, so that seems pointless. I think you either divorce and or you stay in this situation which is crushing your spirit, and damaging your kids.
Maybe start figuring out the finances if you live separately, how can you make that work? See a solicitor to make sure you know your rights. Take it one step at a time.

Shantotto · 12/02/2022 14:43

He is not a good father in any way. If you divorce you might still disagree over the children but he wouldn’t be able to do any of the other horrible stuff he does to you!

AgentJohnson · 12/02/2022 14:49

You are fundamentally two different people.

I think it’s time you accept that this is who he is and there isn’t a kinder or self aware version of him waiting around the corner.

Stop basing your decision on the person you want him to be and accept the man he is.

Living with a critical man is not the primary relationship role model you want to model for young girls.

merryhouse · 12/02/2022 14:50

It might not help with the children but it would certainly help you.

Also, he wouldn't be able to claim he was doing So Much with them unless he genuinely had them half the time.

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 14:54

@HabitsDieHard Just to clarify, he didn't admit to lying during counselling, he said he believed that I had lied during counselling. He thinks I exaggerate things and over react to make him look like a bad person and to make myself look like a victim.

OP posts:
TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 15:02

@AgentJohnson "Stop basing your decision on the person you want him to be and accept the man he is."

Very wise and so true. I think in the past I've gone into therapy saying I'd like us to find a way of improving our communication but deep down I'm hoping he might become more self-aware. But you're right, that's never going to happen unless he wants it to and it doesn't seem like he does.

OP posts:
feelsobadfeltsogood · 12/02/2022 15:11

I live with the father of my kids in separate rooms tho not as a couple but everyone assumes we are a couple!!

Together 10 years, 2 kids
We co-parent well
Share kids and bills still do stuff together but have our own lives too

I have fwb suspect he does too

We're trying to keep things nice for the kids while they're little

Works for us

SukiPook · 12/02/2022 15:18

My ex was v similar (and we had similar childhoods as you describe).
Since I've left him (6 months ago) he has become a much better parent, more attentive (as I'm not there on those 2 days a week) .
I couldn't bear the constant criticism from him any more and the horrendous double standards. Counselling only helped a little bit a few years back- like you, it was me doing all the work on myself and trying to change, he was not self-aware and would revert to blaming me for everything and for his own unhappiness.
It wears you down too much. Even though I did genuinely love him , his behaviour ground me down and I never want to go back. Definitely I think you would be better moving forward as co-parents... yes it will have its own challenges but you don't want this pattern and type of marriage being imprinted as "normal" onto your kids, and then see them recreate it. That was my main impetus to leave... break the cycle.
You deserve to be happy and you're not going to get that in that relationship

irene9 · 12/02/2022 15:23

His mother lives with you. This is the woman who was married to the abusive depressed alcoholic. What's her role in the family?
Does she discipline your kids or does she give opinions on things?

Gerwurtztraminer · 12/02/2022 15:47

Co-parenting after separation and divorce is completely different than as a (dysfunctional ) couple.

If you are living separately then you can parent how you wish in your own home, there is far less compromise required and you can have your own house rules. You no longer have to put up with the constant criticism and arguing. Your kids don't see him undermining you constantly and they don't have to live with the fighting and tension between you. Yes it may be a bit hard at first for them to have different rules in different houses but they will get used to that and adapt.

Once living apart, other than logistical arrangements for the children you have no reason to be in touch and can keep contact to a minium, even just email if you wish. He might actually be a better father alone then together. Many men actually step up once they have to parent alone and can't use their partner as free childminder and housekeeper.

MzHz · 12/02/2022 16:03

[quote TwixLeStrange]@GranolaHolmes I still love him. He's a good father. I'm worried how divorce will impact the kids and that it might not solve anything as we'd still be arguing from separate homes.[/quote]
Your child has said she doesn’t think daddy likes her (hair) you know what your dd is feeling which is why I bracketed it.

Living with this drain of a human is sucking the life and soul from all of you

Who has lunch at 11.30?

You know what he’s doing. It’s death by 1000 cuts

If you lived separately at least you’d be able to have the positive atmosphere in your home, you’d be able to escape the relentless negativity he exudes.

You’d feel better and you know it.

Divorce him. You’ll at least then have the space and opportunity to make a better live for yourself.

Philly1234 · 12/02/2022 16:17

This sounds like a similar dynamic (like my marriage).

I think you have different attachment styles. He sounds like he’s ‘dismissive avoidant’ and you might have an anxious avoidant attachment. You end up with a push-pull dynamic and it’s blooming’ exhausting.

This is a really difficult dynamic to work with but not impossible. However it takes work from both sides.

If he’s not willing to try then I don’t see how you can make necessary changes to make the relationship better for you both.

There are alternatives to divorce such as:
Stay as you are and focus on self care;
A trial separation;
A parenting marriage;
An open marriage

Obviously these aren’t necessarily appealing to everyone but there are options.

Philly1234 · 12/02/2022 16:17

*familiar dynamic

GingerFigs · 12/02/2022 16:19

That's a very long OP. But I've read it and you need to separate, and then divorce. What a miserable bastard. He is sucking the life out of you. I am sure you have your faults but he is gaslighting you. You are not showing what a good relationship looks like to your daughters.

Philly1234 · 12/02/2022 16:19

Sorry I think you might have a ‘preoccupied anxious attachment’. Have a google about different attachment styles. Apologies for all the typos xx

Suzanne999 · 12/02/2022 16:25

Do you really want to go on living with this? Endless rounds of counselling that don’t seem to resolve anything. Is marriage really meant to be this much hard work?

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 16:37

@irene9 The fact that his mother lives with us makes it harder as we have to choose when to have difficult conversations. But she doesn't get involved, she wisely keeps to her room most of the time. She was married to a violent abusive but not the manic depressive alcoholic (that's my Dad). I'm good friends with her and she's easy to live with. She does discipline the kids sometimes.

@MzHz your words are tough love that I need to hear. Thank you.

OP posts:
TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 16:42

@Philly1234 Thank you for your suggestion. I think you're right about our attachment styles. I know we're co-dependent. I know we both had unhealthy childhoods and I knew this meant the odds were stacked against us from the start. But I thought love could conquer all. I guess I was wrong.

OP posts:
TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 16:45

@Philly1234 Also, very interesting re your alternative to divorce. I had thought a trial separation is the first step but perhaps we could also explore a parenting marriage.

@feelsobadfeltsogood is yours a 'parenting marriage' then?

OP posts:
CousinKrispy · 12/02/2022 16:46

Just divorce the arsehole. You and your daughters will be fine and will thrive without him.

Sorry, I know that's glib, and it's easy for me to say. But I've been EXACTLY where you were and divorcing was the best possible outcome.

Read up on that FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) thing and get into individual counseling for yourself.

Big hugs. You deserve a better life than this and so do your kids. I know it's hard but you can do it.

girlmom21 · 12/02/2022 16:47

You might love each other but it doesn't sound like you like each other anymore.

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 16:55

@SukiPook and @CousinKrispy Thank you for sharing. It's great to get advice from someone who has been through the same thing, took the hard decision and came out on the other side happier.

OP posts: