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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Counselling unlikely to help, divorce unlikely to help. What do I do?

36 replies

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 13:57

Sorry, this is a long and complex one! I've been married to my husband for 12 years, together 15 years. We have two children, girls 6 and 10. We are at a crisis point in our marriage and are now deciding if a period of separation preceding divorce makes sense.

I need advice on if this relationship is worth saving and if counselling might be worth it? He’s not a bad person but as a couple, we have a few pretty serious issues. We both have lots of baggage from childhood. My Dad was an alcoholic manic depressive and his Dad used to violently abuse his Mum. I’ve done lots of work on my issues (counselling, daily meditation, self-hypnosis, regression therapy etc…) and I continue to work on myself daily. He’s never done any self-development work and doesn’t want to – he thinks there’s nothing wrong with him and everyone else is flawed. I’m tired of being the one doing all the emotional labour in our relationship.

I'm still in love with my husband. He feels the same way about me but we don't know if love is enough.

He is a very critical person. I cry or get emotional when he criticises me - not all the time but it builds up over time and then we have a blow out. He thinks this is me being emotionally manipulative and that I should be able to handle criticism without getting upset.

We've had two bouts of counselling already. The first time, early in our relationship, I thought we made good progress. But I only found out recently that he didn't think it was successful and that the counselling failed because I "spent the whole time lying during the sessions". He waited a decade to tell me this! He did amend his behaviour but instead of criticising me every day, he'd huff and do passive aggressive body language, keep silent but save it all up for a massive blow out every couple of months during which he'd vent everything he'd suppressed. That pattern has continued to this day.

The second spell of counselling was last year. I don't think our therapist was very good. He did give us a few useful tools though such as the 'feedback sandwich'. My husband seems incapable of giving praise though. Except to tell me I look nice when we go on a date, he doesn't praise anything else. He consistently finds fault with my parenting. This particularly grinds my gears given that I do 75% of the childcare! He said I get to be 'fun mummy' but he has to be the disciplinarian. I take them to art galleries, museums, days at the beach, parks, etc… We always ask him to come with us and would love him to but he refuses. I do actually discipline the kids. He is a perfectionist and has so many rigid and arbitrary rules, many of which I don't agree with, but I follow them anyway as I don't want to undermine his authority. However, he has no problem undermining my authority, criticising what I do in front of the children. This has led to our kids thinking he is the 'boss' and I am his subordinate and hence they now treat me with disrespect too which means it's harder for me to discipline them: a vicious circle.

Our most recent fight was over the kids' hair. Last week I picked up my daughter from school. Her gran had done her hair (our mother in law lives with us). I complemented her on it. She said “thanks” but looked sad so I asked her what was wrong. She said “Daddy asked grandma to do it because he didn't think I'd done a good job with it”. Then she said “I don't think Daddy even likes my hair”. I asked her if she had spoken to Daddy about this, she said she didn't want to as she didn't want to upset him. This made me feel really sad and was a hot button for me. We have mixed afro/euro hair and there are already so many messages in society telling us our hair is not as good as European/straight hair. I didn't want my husband's negative comments ruining her self-esteem so I resolved to mention it to him later, even though I knew this would likely end in a fight. I am trying to teach them independence so I let them do their own hair (I started doing my own hair when I was six). He doesn't agree with this and when he's getting them ready he does their hair for them - fine, he's a different person, he doesn't have to do things my way. But he is intolerant of people's differences. To him, other people's methods are not different, they are wrong.

When I told him what my daughter said, he blamed me. He said if I had tweaked it when she did it, it wouldn't have looked bad and then he wouldn’t have had to say anything. I said I'm more interested in fostering independence and positive self-worth than the way she looks. He said she'll get bullied at school if her hair doesn't look good. I said she doesn't need to get bullied at school - she already gets it at home from you. He called me a neglectful mother and said I don't care about the kids. His evidence for this is that while they're having a shower, I read a book, check emails, order the groceries to be delivered etc... I'm with them every night. He cooks them dinner then I do their homework with them, help them practice their instruments, reading practice, play games etc... Then, even after lights out, they're calling every fifteen minutes for this and that and I'm up and down the stairs for the next hour. He has them for two hours on a Saturday morning, taking them to a class. Then he checks out for the rest of the weekend and I'm left to deal with them alone. We visit my parents once a month. He refuses to come hence I'm a single parent while he gets a lovely weekend off. As I barely get any time to myself, I snatch what tiny snippets I have ie when they're in the shower, to do what I need/want to do.

He said I put so much care and attention into my other projects ie. work and my side career which I'm trying to build and transition into full-time one day, but I don't put as much care and attention into the kids. I said it’s the exact opposite - my side career is not taking off as I don’t have the time and attention to put into it given that I do the bulk of childcare. I accused him of not being supportive of my side career – he often makes comments like “lunch isn’t ready yet? What have you been doing all morning” when he gets home with the kids on a Saturday (they get back at 11h30!). He knows full well I spend that time working on my side career. He thinks he supports me as he pays more into the joint account allowing me to have a lower paying job that gives me the time for a side career. We actually pay the same percentage of our salary so although he pays more, he also earns more – a fair system IMO but it doesn’t mean he’s supporting me more. The support I need is a more equitable childcare split. When I say this to him he says he’s already ‘exhausted’ by the amount he does and it’s unfair for me to ask him to do more.

The things he accuses me of during fights would make you think I’m the worst human being on the planet. He says: I’m gaslighting him; he can’t say anything without me getting upset so now he walks on eggshells (I walk on eggshells around him because of the criticism and blame); I’m a bad listener so he’s given up talking and become a person he doesn’t recognise (I constantly try and initiate conversation by talking to him, he listens but doesn’t respond. Then later, in a fight he says I just expect him to listen all the time!) Everyone else in our life loves me – the children, his mother, our friends, my colleagues etc… Sometimes I wonder if he even likes me at all as a person. We have great chemistry in bed but aside from that we don’t have much in common.

What I’m struggling with is – I don’t know if divorce will solve our issues. Our fights revolve around how to parent the kids and around childcare. We’ll still be co-parents. It may just be costly and inconvenient. We’d still be fighting but from separate homes. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place – divorce is unlikely to solve our problems but therapy has also failed us in the past. What do I do?

OP posts:
Ursusmajor · 12/02/2022 17:13

He doesn’t seem to have any empathy or be able to see things from your point of view. He’s judging your emotional reactions on how he reacts to things and deciding you must be exaggerating rather than seeing that you are just more strongly emotionally affected by certain things than he thinks he would be.
It’s all a bit shit isn’t it?
Divorce might help but it could make his behavior worse…
Does he ever comprise? Like for your daughter’s hair, would he agree on 2 or three easy to do styles that look neat enough for school that you or he help her with in the mornings and then your daughter does her own including experimentation at weekends and on holidays? I don’t have the same hair type so ignore me if I’m wrong or unknowingly insensitive, but would it help to give the girls a style that lasts for a while? Like braids? I know that this is just one example of your issues but are there ways of reducing the flash points that cause you to argue and give you all some breathing room?

formalineadeline · 12/02/2022 17:31

I remember your other thread.

I don't want to hurt you, but you can surely see that if you stay with him you are ensuring your own girls are being damaged by their childhood in the same way that yours damaged you? Or do you think you might be comparing to your very visible & overt experiences and dismissing the present's harms because 'by comparison' it seems better?

I said she doesn't need to get bullied at school - she already gets it at home from you.

This one line should settle it, shouldn't it? This is harming your girls and you can stop it. No child should be dealing with any of this in their home from their parent.

You are right that having to co-parent after divorce won't necessarily be easy and he'll still be him - but your girls will have a home environment where they're not walking on eggshells, where they don't have to worry about when the next putdown might happen, and where you can make them feel secure and loved. That's so critical to a healthy adulthood.

Having a safe secure home environment the majority of the time - and that they always return to after any time with him even if he's a bully then - is completely different to never having a safe secure home environment or any experience of that.

It affects the development of their central nervous system as well as their minds and self-esteem.

formalineadeline · 12/02/2022 17:32

And yeh your recent counsellor sounds crap. The 'sandwich' feedback approach has been discredited because all people do is dismiss the negative and hold the positive.

But a decent counsellor/therapist wouldn't have agreed to joint therapy with these dynamics anyway.

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 17:40

@formalineadeline

"But a decent counsellor/therapist wouldn't have agreed to joint therapy with these dynamics anyway."

Really? So are you saying there's no point in pursuing therapy anyway as the relationship is too toxic?

OP posts:
Nailsbythesea · 12/02/2022 17:45

[quote TwixLeStrange]@HabitsDieHard Just to clarify, he didn't admit to lying during counselling, he said he believed that I had lied during counselling. He thinks I exaggerate things and over react to make him look like a bad person and to make myself look like a victim.[/quote]
This is typical of abusers. dARvO deny attack reverse victim offender - I would have counselling alone

TwixLeStrange · 12/02/2022 17:57

@Nailsbythesea Thank you, yes, I am going to get some counselling alone regardless of the outcome re marriage/divorce.

OP posts:
CousinKrispy · 12/02/2022 18:20

I would agree that couples counseling is pointless. He has already demonstrated that he doesn't respect or can't empathize with you. Couples counseling will just be another avenue for him to dump his bad feelings onto you.

I know it's hard to let go. Ultimately you need to do what's best for you, and make your own decision. But it is absolutely possible to break free and have a better life without being trapped in a toxic home life.

Co-parenting after separation will still be difficult. But, hell, parenting is difficult, full stop.

Whatifitallgoesright · 12/02/2022 18:23

"This has led to our kids thinking he is the 'boss' and I am his subordinate and hence they now treat me with disrespect too which means it's harder for me to discipline them: a vicious circle."

This jumped out at me because I see they are 6 and 10 now. Imagine the level of that at 12 and 16? If you split you will be the boss of your own home. You will have your own territory. You will be parenting with the balance that your instinct dictates not according to this manipulative man.

Please, you can do better.

formalineadeline · 12/02/2022 18:29

[quote TwixLeStrange]@formalineadeline

"But a decent counsellor/therapist wouldn't have agreed to joint therapy with these dynamics anyway."

Really? So are you saying there's no point in pursuing therapy anyway as the relationship is too toxic?[/quote]
Actually I would say it's worse than "no point" because all it's achieved to date is to keep you enmeshed in a damaging situation.

Professional organisations actively advise against joint therapy in such circumstances, because at best it does nothing and at worst it makes things worse / keeps people trapped in toxic situations.

Individual therapy is a totally different scenario. Massive respect to you for all the work you've put in to help yourself heal from your past.

SportsMother · 12/02/2022 18:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

movingon2022 · 12/02/2022 19:15

I am sitting alone in my living room, sipping my coffee, enjoying a gorgeous view outside my window, a beautiful sunny day and reading your post OP. All three of my kids are upstairs sleeping and the house is quiet. I am calm, rested and content. I would never have this if my ex was still here with me. He was not physically abusive, never shouted at me or called me names, but I always felt anxious, nervous around him. I rarely had a morning like this when he was around. His comments, his criticism, his lack of compromise and total inability to give in, controlling, manipulative behavior got the best of me. I did not think I would ever be able to leave, I dared not to even think about it, but I did. I spent quarter of the century walking on eggshells, feeling uncomfortable in my own house, my own life, my own skin. But no more.

I realize that there are many different people and therefore many different marriages out there in the world, and you too should choose the best option for you, but if you ask me I would tell you, you will never have your peace until you are separated from this man.

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