Abuse or different set of moral standards….my mind is blown!

[Mymindisblown]

I was speaking to someone today about my issues with Cafcass. What they said to me kind of blew my mind.

I can’t understand why they aren’t doing more to protect our child. But that’s another thread. What blew my mind was what she said to me about abuse. What is one persons abuse is another persons different set of morals and experience. I’ve been having issues with my ex. Admitted abuse in court, mostly emotional with lots of aggression and threats. Did 4 sessions of anger management and some perpetrators course he was ordered. He blames his abuse on his childhood amongst other things.

Whilst I am sympathetic he had an abusive childhood he must fix himself. I told a friend that I don’t understand if he feels he has taken on abusive behaviours from his father why isn’t he doing therapy to make sure he doesn’t pass this on to daughter. Then she said to me he is probably just saying all that but doesn’t believe he has a problem. I couldn’t understand it.

She then said my idea of abuse is not his idea of abuse. My idea of what is right and wrong is different to his idea. So simply to his set of standards he is not abusive. He has nothing to change.

So what is abuse then? He said I was too sensitive, to him I was, to me I wasn’t. So was he abusive? In my eyes he was in his eyes he isn’t. He isn’t then going to fix anything he is?

Are you sure you didn’t misconstrue what your friend meant.

It is very common for abusers to actually see it the way your friend describes. They don’t see their behaviour as a problem, nor do they see the need to change. It’s what makes therapy/ working with abusers so hard. They deep down see nothing wrong. So of course they don’t need therapy. Why would they? In their minds they haven’t done anything wrong.

The rest of the world is sensitive, or the ex has gone crazy. An abuser very rarely takes full responsibility for either their actions or the carnage they leave behind.

Sorry I might not have worded that too well @sassbott. I was trying to get across that I simply don’t understand how he can’t see how damaging his behaviour is because he isn’t actively doing anything off his own back to fix it. She said I’m looking at it through my eyes and with my experience having come from a pretty decent childhood. He has a totally different experience and according to his life experience he has done nothing wrong so why would he be seeking help. He thinks I need help.

We were talking about intention. What seems like intent to me is just standard usual behaviour to someone with a warped upbringing.

My BiL says about his behaviours that he understands that a lot of people disapprove of what he does (prostitutes) but he doesn’t think it’s wrong so get over it. He absolutely refuses to countenance that it’s in any way abusive to either the women he uses or to his now ex wife. Psychopaths the lot of them.

She's right. He feels there is nothing to fix. It's 2 different perspectives on the same incident. For example my dh tells me I'm shouting when I raise my voice. To me I'm not - i agree i have raised it but my definition of shouting is much louder. Who is right? Him or me? Probably both of us....I'm technically right that shouting is something else.....he's right that to him it sounds like i am shouting.....(FYI.....this isn't regular behaviour....just an illustration....).

BiL’s boundary seems to be physical violence. That’s abuse. Anything else, not so much.

Trying to get emotional abuse understood at court has been a nightmare. They don’t understand at all. They have one person saying one thing the other person another. They sent me on a separated parents class. Pointless as his idea of parenting is right in his eyes. Totally abusive in my eyes, court going down the suck it and see route. It’s all down to perception, it’s ridiculous.

Yep @JosephineDeBeauharnais that’s what mine used to say to me….I haven’t hit you what’s wrong with you then. Very low bar and that didn’t include my boundaries at the time!!!

She's right. His past experiences and ACE'S will have formed his behaviour. However, if what he's doing is abusive in the eyes of the law, that's the definition of it.

That bar @Gilda152 is extremely low and contact at all cases whatever the consequences later on in life. That’s if you have enough proof as emotional abuse is hard to prove. Just one persons view against another. Mine was proven to be emotionally damaging but contact is still continuing.

I think that everyone has different perceptions of 'good' and 'bad' and 'harmful' and 'harmless', so if you are wanting a hard-and-fast absolute definition of which behaviours constitute abuse and which do not, then you are going to be disappointed.

To a degree almost all 'challenging' or 'aggressive' or 'assertive' or 'conflictual' behaviours except the most explicitly harmful (eg punching someone in the face) could qualify as either abusive or non-abusive depending on the context, at least in a one-off situation.

For example, if your husband talked over you during an argument as a one-off, pretty much nobody would call that abusive. But if he regularly talks over you during arguments as a way of controlling the conversation and getting his way, then this might reasonably be seen by many people as a low-level abusive behaviour, or even high-level depending on how aggressive he is about it.

However – as your friend says – even if most people would agree that consistently talking over your partner in arguments is a form of abuse, that doesn't mean that every individual (including, probably, the person doing the talking-over) will agree that the behaviour is abusive. Because people do have different standards for what they consider acceptable. You just won't get all people to come to an agreement on it.

So, the important thing is to recognise that your own standards are your own standards and just because they don't match those of another individual, it doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong, or you're wrong and they're right. It means you're not well-matched in terms of standards. And at the end of the day, that's all you need to know.

Your ex said you were "too sensitive" and he wasn't abusive; you feel that you were not too sensitive and he was abusive. Who is objectively right or wrong is less important than the fact that you didn't like the way he treated you and he didn't think there was any problem with the way he treated you.

Maybe you are quite a sensitive person but being sensitive isn't a necessarily personality fault in itself, it just means you work best with a partner who is also quite sensitive.

Maybe you are not especially sensitive but your ex sees you as being overly sensitive because he is extremely insensitive. It's also possible also that you are sensitive to a fault and over-reactive but if this is the case, you will probably find that you have the same problems you have with your ex with everyone else in your life. If you don't, the answer is more likely to be that you fall within the range of normal sensitivity but your ex falls below it.

@Mymindisblown

I was speaking to someone today about my issues with Cafcass. What they said to me kind of blew my mind.

I can’t understand why they aren’t doing more to protect our child. But that’s another thread. What blew my mind was what she said to me about abuse. What is one persons abuse is another persons different set of morals and experience. I’ve been having issues with my ex. Admitted abuse in court, mostly emotional with lots of aggression and threats. Did 4 sessions of anger management and some perpetrators course he was ordered. He blames his abuse on his childhood amongst other things.

Whilst I am sympathetic he had an abusive childhood he must fix himself. I told a friend that I don’t understand if he feels he has taken on abusive behaviours from his father why isn’t he doing therapy to make sure he doesn’t pass this on to daughter. Then she said to me he is probably just saying all that but doesn’t believe he has a problem. I couldn’t understand it.

She then said my idea of abuse is not his idea of abuse. My idea of what is right and wrong is different to his idea. So simply to his set of standards he is not abusive. He has nothing to change.

So what is abuse then? He said I was too sensitive, to him I was, to me I wasn’t. So was he abusive? In my eyes he was in his eyes he isn’t. He isn’t then going to fix anything he is?

The reason they dont recognise it as abuse is because it allows them to dispel their feelings of anger, shame and guilt and so they feel better. Which leads to justification and blame. " You deserved it/ you are to blame" They feel better and so they make it ok in their own head via cognitive dissonance. There is also a huge need for control to enable them to prop up self esteem

I should have that the courts will have a high-level definition precisely because of the difficulties in defining a line. Abuse of varying degrees is rife in society and the courts operate under time and expense pressures.

They are simply not able to pick through all the fine lines of one individual's perception of emotional abuse vs another's. So they set the bar high. It's shit, but it's the system. As a mother you will just have to do your best to give your child a clear understanding of the nuances of human relationships, and provide a home base that is secure and affirming.

Over time your child will learn to understand the reality that people have different standards for behaviour, and some tend to produce good, harmonious relationships, and others tend to produce poor, disharmonious relationships. What they need to learn is to not feel obligated to maintain relationships with people who make them feel bad, even if that person is family.

You need to be specific about what is being done and how it will cause harm to your dc. So in relation to emotional abuse in court, you would want to provide objective analysis of why and how it is emotional abuse (from a legal point of view, in court the idea is to present an argument so convincing and clear that the court cannot do anything but agree with you)

Almost everyone flips their lid sometimes. The line between abuse/not abuse is going to depend on how often it happens, hgow easily you are triggered, how quickly you regain control, how far you go before you lose control, etc.

Is it worth listing out what he does when abusive here?

Eg:
Calling you slut, saying you have a disgusting fat arse - verbal abuse
Continuously lying or gaslighting - potentially psych abuse
Throwing things across the room and causing damage to property and fear to people
Grabbing you by the throat
Agreeing on a course of action with a counsellor and then ignoring what he has agreed to
Punishing you for not agreeing with him by doing something to your dc or regularly putting your toothbrush in the toilet when you aren't around
Saying to you that he will only give you his share of money if you agree to have sex with him regularly

Certain behaviours indicate that he might escalate
Certain behaviours indicate that he would abuse your dc and other people
Intention isn't necessarily relevant, as even if they do not intend to cause harm, they may actually cause harm

MN isn't always helpful here as there are many and varying ideas about what "abuse" is. I have seen someone on MN say that their partner asked them where they were when they went out for a walk on their own in the dark, and some people would say he was showing concern, and others would say he was controlling - there are going to be areas where it is debate as to whether it is abusive. Someone crossing your boundaries may not abusive (just to refer to your recent post)

I do also agree with pps that a lot of people who are seriously abusive because of personality disorders will not be aware that what they are doing is abusive, until diagnosed. Also that the same people who mirrored to get you to marry them, can also mirror when you start to talk about behaviour - you can say "I think you are being abusive when you do x" and you will find them saying to you the next day "I think you are being abusive when you do y" (when x is abusive and y is not...) and you can get into a quagmire of psychological games, which makes it harder and harder to deal with and to get the help you need.

Sorry about the long post

Absolutely. Of course emotional abuse in all its nuances is hard to evidence because our perception of feeling abused is so varied from one person to the next. The law decides what counts as abuse and that's where the line is. Does it mean you've not been abused by your own measure if it's falls short of the legal definition? Of course not. But it's right to say what one person feels is abusive the other person feels isn't that bad or is only happening because xyz happened to them first. Child sex offenders perfect example. So many of them will themselves have been abused in their own childhood. Is it an excuse? Absolutely not. Is it a reason? Probably yes. The law deals with cases where there's no excuse regardless of reason. That's where the definition of abuse lies.

@CheekyHobson it is difficult. I’m talking more about extreme actions like not liking what you say so pinning you against wall and shouting in face or smashing things up. I guess that there are still people out there who unfortunately deem that to be acceptable, especially if they grew up witnessing that. Their threshold of fear and sensitivity is much higher then someone who didn’t. I was in shock and lived most of the relationship in survival mode.

If I hadn’t taken him to court he would never have admitted he had abusive behaviours. I feel he admitted them purely to get what he wanted which was contact. If he thinks those actions are acceptable then I am very worried about our daughter. Court appear to be giving him a chance to prove what he is saying. He has abused all his partner before me so I’m not convinced at all.

[quote Mymindisblown]@CheekyHobson it is difficult. I’m talking more about extreme actions like not liking what you say so pinning you against wall and shouting in face or smashing things up. I guess that there are still people out there who unfortunately deem that to be acceptable, especially if they grew up witnessing that. Their threshold of fear and sensitivity is much higher then someone who didn’t. I was in shock and lived most of the relationship in survival mode.

If I hadn’t taken him to court he would never have admitted he had abusive behaviours. I feel he admitted them purely to get what he wanted which was contact. If he thinks those actions are acceptable then I am very worried about our daughter. Court appear to be giving him a chance to prove what he is saying. He has abused all his partner before me so I’m not convinced at all.[/quote]
That must be very scary.

@thymeforgotten some of the examples.

Pinning up against wall and shouting inch in front of face.

Throwing objects

Bullying for sex and telling me I need therapy because I didn’t want it.

Locking away money in a safe.

Telling me I was unless f ing paracite.

Telling me when I tried I speak to shut my fucking my mouth. Sometimes offered to shut it for me.

Ignoring me.

Telling me I needed therapy all the time.

Chucking Dinner I made that wasn’t good enough.

Blowing off the handle then ignoring me if I spoke to a man.

Telling me constantly I owed him for everything we had.

Blah blah and many more. So glad that’s all in the past.

To me those are all abusive to him he would say whats the bloody matter I never hit you. His standard as that’s what his dad did to his mum.

What he probably first did was not see it as abuse. So you're friend may be right, that's not to say he wasn't abusive, he's likely in a party of 1 who has that pov. But you say he's now admitted it in court, so he's telling himself plan B to absole himself, which is that his childhood caused it, he may also fabricate other mitigation that drove him to it. This is more about being unable to accept that he's a bad person, he has to live with himself and he has become his own cheerleader.
So he might convince himself that it wasn't that bad, but that is irrelevant to the truth, which is that his actions were abusive. POV doesn't have any bearing in whether it's abusive or not, other professionals can see it objectively.

@Opentooffers it appears that way to me also. He has admitted but not for the right reasons otherwise he’d be doing therapy. The DAPP course he did and came back with my childhood is my trigger and I won’t do it again please say sorry to my ex wife I feel bad. They are still going ahead with contact so basically he is an abusive man who will get contact and at that’s the outcome of that.

[quote Mymindisblown]@CheekyHobson it is difficult. I’m talking more about extreme actions like not liking what you say so pinning you against wall and shouting in face or smashing things up. I guess that there are still people out there who unfortunately deem that to be acceptable, especially if they grew up witnessing that. Their threshold of fear and sensitivity is much higher then someone who didn’t. I was in shock and lived most of the relationship in survival mode.

If I hadn’t taken him to court he would never have admitted he had abusive behaviours. I feel he admitted them purely to get what he wanted which was contact. If he thinks those actions are acceptable then I am very worried about our daughter. Court appear to be giving him a chance to prove what he is saying. He has abused all his partner before me so I’m not convinced at all.[/quote]
If he grew up witnessing these type of behaviours then he will be set with them as his normal.
My own father thinks beating your wife is normal behaviour, he watched his mother being beaten and advised my DH to do it to me.
If women are beaten by him or someone else he thinks its their own fault and they deserve it.

There’s definitely a grey area where some call it abuse and some call it moral standards especially when it comes to parenting
e.g. the self soothe method where some parents leave their baby to cry and think it’s fine and others think it’s abusive. Same as smacking, time outs, grounding etc.

From some of your examples he sounds abusive towards you but you’ve not given any examples of abuse towards your DD and they may feel that because of this he is safe to be around her.

Has he ever met her?
And has he ever acted abusive towards her? This is what they need to hear, not so much what happened between you and him.

@WonderfulYou she was very small when I left. He threw an object at me and it hit her by mistake then he screamed at me and she toddled off and sat and screamed at his shouting. That was enough for me to think what are you doing you need to leave this man. She was always present when he screamed at me. He would always say when she grows up I’ll tell her what a looser her mum is. They had contact for a while but he would not stop at me in front of her so I stopped it. It was getting bad.

The thing is and I’ve tried to tell them at court. His behaviours towards women and practically anyone he doesn’t like will be done in front of her. It’s damaging. I am not the problem he is, he has a problem with intimate relationships.

I am worried if he truly doesn’t see his behaviours as a problem and just saying it as a cop out he is a huge risk to her. He beat his previous girlfriend, with me more emotional, the one before the last he cut his wrists over.

Did you or any of his ex partners involve the police?