Abuse or different set of moral standards….my mind is blown!

[Mymindisblown]

I was speaking to someone today about my issues with Cafcass. What they said to me kind of blew my mind.

I can’t understand why they aren’t doing more to protect our child. But that’s another thread. What blew my mind was what she said to me about abuse. What is one persons abuse is another persons different set of morals and experience. I’ve been having issues with my ex. Admitted abuse in court, mostly emotional with lots of aggression and threats. Did 4 sessions of anger management and some perpetrators course he was ordered. He blames his abuse on his childhood amongst other things.

Whilst I am sympathetic he had an abusive childhood he must fix himself. I told a friend that I don’t understand if he feels he has taken on abusive behaviours from his father why isn’t he doing therapy to make sure he doesn’t pass this on to daughter. Then she said to me he is probably just saying all that but doesn’t believe he has a problem. I couldn’t understand it.

She then said my idea of abuse is not his idea of abuse. My idea of what is right and wrong is different to his idea. So simply to his set of standards he is not abusive. He has nothing to change.

So what is abuse then? He said I was too sensitive, to him I was, to me I wasn’t. So was he abusive? In my eyes he was in his eyes he isn’t. He isn’t then going to fix anything he is?

@WonderfulYou all of those were in his home country of Africa so nope. I only involved the police after when he came kicking my door with me and daughter inside.

Wow, that's very scary, I'm so sorry you went through that.

From the behaviours you listed, I expect that the courts would only perceive this:

• Pinning up against wall and shouting inch in front of face

as being a material threat of physical harm, but if he did not leave marks on you it can be hard to prove as genuinely harmful enough to restrict contact with a child.

It's very challenging to accept but all the rest is psychological and the courts do not really restrict contact on that basis.

I think you have to accept that yes, he's going to be a terrible role model and probably psychologically abusive to your child, hard as that is. However, you have the ability to show her a highly contrasting environment, role-model healthy behaviours and and offer clear counterpoints to what he says to her.

A lot of the harm of psychological abuse is caused by the victim being isolated by the abuser and thus having no objective support or access to a different perspective on the abuse. They grow up thinking it's their fault because they're bad or that it's normal and okay. The abuse remains hidden because they don't talk about it to people who could give them a different perspective or act swiftly if the abuse escalates to the threat of physical harm.

But your daughter won't think her father's behaviour is okay or that it's her fault because you can tell and show her otherwise. You know what he's like and you'll be on guard.

I know you must be terrified that he will physically harm her so you do need to stay super-alert for any sign of escalation and apply for changes to contact if something more threatening becomes apparent.

@CheekyHobson I think I’ve kind of come to that conclusion now. His admittion means nothing. Originally I thought great now we can work on that but if he doesn’t seek therapy off his own back then asking will make no difference.
He has admitted the allegations purely to move the case on not because he believes he has done no wrong. He will show his abusive behaviours to her because he knows no different.

I thought for a while what was the point in me leaving and going through all of this just to send her back into it. But then I’m much healthier now. I have moved on and been with a great man for what 15 months now.
He has shown me what a difference two men can be. She will see what healthy looks like and she would never have before. It kills me to think I can’t protect her when she will be with him.

Yes he kept me from my family and friends. I was alone, I knew things were wrong but I never spoke out and got no perspective until I eventually believed I was simply just faulty and put up with it. Then my daughter came along and I couldn’t let her love like that.

I’ve often wondered why we made criminal laws against abuse when not only are they not upheld in family courts, they don’t even know what the fuck it is, allow the abuser to continue abusing the woman and children and gaslight her.

I feel absolutely gas lighted. The judge actually said to me at the last hearing .” Trust me I’ve seen many cases and rarely do they admit the abuse, I believe you have nothing to worry about”. Absolute shit!

If you gave evidence along the lines of your list, it is so shocking that the court found as it did. AFAIK - based on experience and professional advice I sought at the time:

• the verbal and physical abuse as you describe as a pattern of behaviour are indicators that the abuse could and probably would escalate, become more physical, or other types of abuse - he said he hadn't beaten you and I would add the word "yet" - the advice I got was that I was at risk and that if he behaved like that to me, he would to others and of course your dc would be at risk
• the verbal abuse towards you in front of your dc is hugely damaging, if you google it is well established afaik that it can cause low self esteem, anxiety, mental health problems and the fact that he was not aware of this or couldn't control his behaviour is a risk
• the fact that he seemed to have a short fuse indicates he may not cope with looking after a child on his own, because children can be frustrating and push buttons

This is not saying that he could not change, with therapy, but as you say a lot more than he has had so far. I hope he does change for your dc's sake. But until there is evidence of that, they should have made it supervised contact surely.

I am so angry for you and for all the women who have to put up with this.

In relation to what the person you spoke to thought, ime people who haven't been through it or have professional experience don't understand the impact and the risk of escalation.

*or turn into other types of abuse

I thought for a while what was the point in me leaving and going through all of this just to send her back into it. But then I’m much healthier now.

And this is the key thing. Many of us who have been in abusive relationships ended up there simply because we did not know how to see them coming. But you can teach your child what you have learned.

Lots of adult-relationship abuse victims grow up in a basically healthy environment and interact mostly with healthy people, so we develop a set of beliefs that pretty much everyone we meet has good intentions and healthy functioning. Maybe we have some undiscovered people-pleasing tendencies or had parents who didn't communicate with us very fully about awkward topics like relationships, so there are some gaps in our knowledge or a tendency to over-compensate for others.

When we enter a relationship with someone who in the early days is hiding quite serious personality dysfunctions, we form a view of them that they are like all the other decent, healthy people we've known.

When the cracks start to show, we tend to repeatedly give the benefit of the doubt, or try to compensate or fix things ourselves in some way, tell ourselves that relationships require work, etc. By the time the abuse becomes more severe and entrenched there are often reasons (kids, lack of money) that we can't instantly extract ourselves.

It's a hard hard lesson to learn and it sucks to think your daughter will have to deal with a shit dad. But it will be a very valuable set of understandings for her to have before she embarks on adult relationships herself.

She then said my idea of abuse is not his idea of abuse. My idea of what is right and wrong is different to his idea. So simply to his set of standards he is not abusive. He has nothing to change this might be right from a philosophical or sociological point of view but in our culture we have evidence based research going back decades relating to parenting and child development to draw on, and there are clear indicators that certain parental behaviours will be damaging to children

OP, the family courts are notorious for allowing contact with abusive fathers. You are not alone in this, it's a huge problem across the country and it only seems to be getting worse. I don't think anything will change unless mothers start getting together to take collective action.

I'd also recommend this podcast, it's an interview with Lundy Bancroft (author of the book 'Why Does He Do That') he discusses this exact problem in details and is also very good at explaining how guys like this think.

[quote Mymindisblown]@thymeforgotten some of the examples.

Pinning up against wall and shouting inch in front of face.

Throwing objects

Bullying for sex and telling me I need therapy because I didn’t want it.

Locking away money in a safe.

Telling me I was unless f ing paracite.

Telling me when I tried I speak to shut my fucking my mouth. Sometimes offered to shut it for me.

Ignoring me.

Telling me I needed therapy all the time.

Chucking Dinner I made that wasn’t good enough.

Blowing off the handle then ignoring me if I spoke to a man.

Telling me constantly I owed him for everything we had.

Blah blah and many more. So glad that’s all in the past.

To me those are all abusive to him he would say whats the bloody matter I never hit you. His standard as that’s what his dad did to his mum.[/quote]
I think a big majority of people would say these behaviours are abusive, especially the physical ones. I agree with your friend that it's likely he doesn't believe his behaviour is abusive. Most people think of themselves as decent human beings. Therefore their actions must be decent too. Knowing you're abusive, really knowing, not just giving lip service to things like the court, would cause massive cognitive dissonance in their brain, you can't live like that, the choice is stop, which is unthinkable, or believe that your behaviour is justified. You can't understand thinking that way, but he does and others do too. That doesn't mean he's not abusive, but yes it's highly likely he thinks he isn't abusive. I expect people who commit violent or sexual crimes think they're fully justified behaving that way too.

In his mind the physical abuse was justified, it was your fault, you made him do it, if you hadn't triggered him, if you'd given him everything he wanted, if you'd behaved exactly as you should have he wouldn't have had to... insert abusive behaviour. Of course none of it is your fault, but he thinks it is. A friend's emotionally abusive H had an affair and ended their marriage yet went on abusing her because it was all HER fault HE had an affair. You can't reason with these people, it will always be someone else's fault or responsibility.

As a manager H has supported women in physically abusive relationships, he is absolutely scathing of their partners, he'd have no time for anyone that was physically abusive. Yet he thinks it's ok to pressure for sex, gaslight, gets really angry and yells aggressively, gets in the kids faces yelling, push or smack our DC. Especially the last I know some people would consider this fine and yelling and gaslighting are open to interpretation. A lot of H behaviour would be open to interpretation.

Sorry, here's the link:

podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWZlbWFsZWRhdGluZ3N0cmF0ZWd5L2ZlZWQueG1s/episode/dGhlZmVtYWxlZGF0aW5nc3RyYXRlZ3kucG9kYmVhbi5jb20vZjQxZjMwNjctMzdjZi0zNmU0LWI3ZTItNzkyZmQzZmE0ZTU1?hl=en-GB&ved=2ahUKEwjsg-72pcH1AhXiQUEAHSSiD00QjrkEegQIJRAI&ep=6

@cheekyhobson that sounds positive but I am not sure I agree with your final paragraph. If you have been through a relationship like this as an adult, it does mean that you know what to look out for. For a child spending time alone with an abusive parent it is quite a different thing. They can be helped to recover but it makes it harder for the healthy parent to help them if they have not seen what is happening or what has been said. Because children will not be able to talk about it the way an adult would. A lot of time which should be spent living and learning and having fun is spent working out what has happened and helping the child process. I think the starting point should be working towards change in how this sort of situation is viewed by the courts. A relationship with the biological father is important, but it doesn't have to be unsupervised contact.

What you have described OP is very clearly abuse
The question of 'different moral standards' makes no difference to that really.

However, an interesting question is who (or what class of people) he behaves like that with. If he has been raised (as he would say) to think that grabbing people by the throat - or whatever- is acceptable, he will do that with anyone who annoys him- mates, co workers, random strangers etc I would bet good money that this abusive behaviour is confined to his female partners, people he feels he has a right to control. This is what makes it domestic abuse and not random shitty behaviour.

Secondly, I would invite him to consider all those men who grew up as frightened little boys in families where there was an abusive man and did NOT become abusive- infact some go on to campaign and speak openly about the harm caused. It isn't inevitable, it's a choice he makes.

You might want to check out the Freedom Programme, it's widely available and will help you get this straight in your head.

I think your friend either worded what she thought badly or does not understand domestic abuse.

@cheekyhobson I have now read your earlier post - sorry some of my last post will be teaching grandma to suck eggs! I am guessing you were trying to be positive about something which the OP cannot change. I do agree that children can recover, and enter into adulthood with awareness and healthy boundaries

I think the starting point should be working towards change in how this sort of situation is viewed by the courts. A relationship with the biological father is important, but it doesn't have to be unsupervised contact.

I don't think we disagree at all, really. I think a child should have minimal contact with a psychologically or physically abusive parent and that the OP should make it an aim to minimise her child's contact with this abusive man where she can. But given that the courts don't have a good record of protecting children, I'm trying to give the OP some encouragement that her child will not suffer in the same way as she would if she were growing up in a household where the abuse is constant.

I have now read your earlier post - sorry some of my last post will be teaching grandma to suck eggs! I am guessing you were trying to be positive about something which the OP cannot change. I do agree that children can recover, and enter into adulthood with awareness and healthy boundaries

Cross post! Thanks.

To be honest @StillWeRise he would pick a fight with anyone who looked at him the wrong way. He generally was not a nice person. Mostly women though but I think it was the girls and women who were just more intimidated by him so spoke up more.

My ex did similar, and had a massive drinking problem that caused huge financial issues in the 3 years I was with him. Very clever at hiding it and lies rolled off his tongue so fucking easily.

And at 6”6 to my 5”2… If he’d ever been violent, even once, I’m sure I’d have had significant injuries. However, he’s far too smart for that - if he hit me, there’d be clear cut evidence (his words) Better to gaslight the fuck out of me until I believe Black is white and up is down.

I thank all the Gods that ever existed that he fucked off when I was pregnant, briefly appeared when DC was newborn then went, never to be seen again.

He did that because he knew I was terrified of being alone with 3DC (elder 2 not his), so to him, abandoning us was the worst thing he could do me, so he did it.

It was the best thing he ever did to me.

Is he from Morocco by any chance? I was in an abusive relationship, I now realise, with a Moroccan man. Long distance and on and off more times than I have had cups of tea or Mrs Doyle has made them, so it went on and on for much longer than I believe I would have allowed it and forgiven him so many times had it been here in Ireland.

Not Morocco no. We were married 12 years. Took 2 years to divorce that bugger as he dragged his feet.

I was scared of him physically. He wasn’t tall but he was aggressive and always in his face. He made it known he could and he had so I always knew to not push him.

I think I’m slowly coming to the realisation that I can not make this any better in my head. My daughter is going to an abuser end of. I think him admitting childhood abuse is a get out and fed into his victim mentality and not a genuine realisation that he will do work to fix.

I’ve been trying to find something positive to calm my mind but the fact is my mind is right he will not change and he will abuse our daughter because he is just warped.

In an abusers head the end justifies the means. They don't want to feel shame at all, so will often find a way to bully someone into submission. As long as they avoid feelings of shame, it was all ok. In that process they blame the other person further distancing themselves from their actions.

If he wants access then he will do whatever he thinks he needs to do. Threatening you with abusive acts is no longer going to work (apart from emotionally it seems) so he's playing a new game, lying that he understands because he gets some kudos from the judge and what he wants, access and pissing you off in the process. Real regret is incredibly rare.

It's absolutely heart breaking that these acts work and children get sent to see abusive partners. The system is broken. I wish I had the answers for you but hope that your presence in your daughter's life will be protective and comforting to her.