How do have conversations with your DH about issues, without angry escalation?

[OverTheHill50]

Don't know whether it's the intensity of being together too much during the pandemic, or the fact that our youngest child left for uni, so it's just us together, but DH seems to be getting on my nerves more and more with all the little things he does feeling like constant microaggressions.
But when I try to raise anything, ask that he not do certain things it always ends up in an angry shouting match.
How do you manage to have productive discussions about things without being accused of being a 'nag' or him storming off and being huffy for 24 hours?

Examples (some trivial, some less do?)

• if he empties the kitchen bin and there is 'bin juice' in the bottom he leaves it open, without the lid on "to air" rather than washing it out. Result is it ends up as a sticky smelly mess on the bottom and I end up washing it out before putting a clean bag in

• we have a pull out drawer under bathroom sink. It's deep, so I organised it a few years ago with organiser boxes with different sections for e.g. toothpaste & teeth; soap & shower gel; DH's shaving stuff; my sanpro etc. When DH buys anything he just throws it in on the top, toothpaste still in box etc presumably assuming I will sort it into its proper section later.

• he just suddenly decides to take over part of the house without discussion. He has an office in a 'posh shed' at the bottom of the garden, but over Christmas brought his laptop and set up a 'temporary desk' on a table in the corner of our little TV room (where the DSs would watch TV and I would sometimes sit & read, or use for having coffee with a friend over). He's still in there, monopolising it all day, every day! When I tried to raise it he said if I wanted to use it to just tell him and he'd move into another room. But that's not the point, as I think it's part of the living area of our house and I shouldn't have to 'ask' to use it!

I just can't seem to have a reasonable conversation about any of these sorts of things!

Just have a tidy up. Tidy his stuff back to the shed. Hopefully he will follow it.
My dh never ever behaves as you describe.
Exh did.

Ex
H

My ex was like this
We split up !

But is there a magic way I should raise these things?
Should I be pretending I really don't understand why he doesn't wsh the bin out, or unpack the toiletries?

It's exhausting. We've been married over 20 years but somehow I feel it's got worse. Or perhaps in the past I just used to do everything (for everyone) and now I'm thinking "I'm not taking this shit anymore".

Life is short.
The dynamics change between a couple when the nest empties, they are 'forced' to talk to each other without the distraction of dc in the mix.
The pandemic obviously hasn't helped either.
I think you need to reframe the relationship, can you talk with him without it flaring up ? What do you both want from the future ?

Is his shed at the bottom of the garden fully heated and insulated? And with access to a loo, hot drinks etc without having to go outside? I would imagine its too cold to comfortably be able to work there right now. I can't imagine being sent to a shed in the garden to work in the middle of winter, while everyone else is in the warm house. Is the "TV room" the only living space in the house, or is it in addition to a sitting room/other reception rooms? If its an additional space, I'd suggest that he moves there over winter, and back outside (if he wishes) when the weather warms up.

The other things (bin/bathroom cupboard) are just you doing things differently to him. I get that you see it as him leaving things for you to do, but actually maybe he thinks the bin doesn't need washing out? And that the bathroom drawer doesn't need to be separated out? We just put "bathroom things" in the bathroom cupboard - we don't have separate sections for each sub category - that seems unnecessary and faffy to me. And I'm pretty sure we don't wash the bin out every time the bag is changed. Just because you do things differently to him doesn't mean that your way is right and his is wrong!

I would say, if you don't want to use the garden office I'll have it as a craft shed.

As for other stuff, just calmly explain that he creates more work, assumed for you, by not taking a few moments putting things away, emptying bins etc.

Go into you coffee den with him and have a open loving conversation, our youngest has left, we've done for the time being, our bit as parents so it's time to take stock of life, new year new start.

Explain you need to be more than a mum and wife now. Have a conversation about the future, how you feel, your dreams.

No blame, no accusations. Yes it might take a few gentle good humoured reminders "is that where toothpaste lives honey"

Surely he wants an interesting, independent wife with stories to bring home and stuff to chat about that isn't 'bins'.

I think this happens when you've 'put up' with things for years (maybe they didn't seem such a big deal or you didn't notice it so much, or perhaps you felt the other person was pulling their weight in other ways, or you had more time than them so you just did it.

Then something changes - a child moving out / being together more often in lockdown, or one person becomes busier through work for example. And you notice. You notice the small things that are just lazy or thoughtless. And once you've noticed them you can't un-notice them. And you even start looking for them. You notice you're picking up after another adult and you resent it. It could be they've been acting like this for years, or maybe it's got worse recently. But you realise it isn't fair.

So you mention it. You keep mentioning it. The other person, who is acting just like they've always acted, sees you've changed. They aren't doing anything different but you're now 'nagging' (hate that word). They feel picked on, a victim. Why are you so picky and angry these days?

So then you're both resentful.

You are raising perfectly reasonable points. Is there any chance of having a reasonable conversation, in a calm happy moment. Say you can see they don't like being criticised but why, as a grown adult, can't they put things away? Why do they think you are there to run around after them? You don't want to be constantly criticising, but nor do you want to spend your time running around like you would with a toddler.

If he still won't listen, then it may be that he simply doesn't respect you or your time. Which is a whole bigger issue.

By the way, with regard to the WFH thing. I can see how that happens. Having to go outside to your office on a cold and wet winter's day, when you could stay in the house, I can understand. Me and DH have an 'office' but on colder days it never gets properly warm and we work elsewhere in the house. I don't think it's fair to ban the WFH person from certain rooms, if there is a good reason for them using it.

If you work it out please let me know as we are the same. I feel picked on and sometimes now don’t even want to go home, he just is SO moody and I never know when a strop will happen. Sad times.

My DH isn’t like this. Maybe you have a DH issue?

I'd be pretty pissed off if my partner started insisting I put toothpaste etc into compartmented sections! If you enjoy that sort of thing then do it. Plus Im not sure if want to work in a shed, just how posh is 'posh'!

I wind dh up because I don’t care too much for his (imo) pointless systems, however he also winds me up on things I care about.

I suppose it’s just a bit of give and take. The organised bathroom is important to you so accept that you’ll have to keep it that way.

Ask him why he’s taken over the snug and listen, maybe it’s time to turn that into his office.

Things change and we have to be adaptable. Kids leaving home is a big time for re-evaluation. Maybe he’s missing them more than he realises. Maybe you are. Maybe it is the end of the road for you without kids. Hopefully you can readjust together.

Chatting at a neutral time about the readjustments needed might be the way forward.

Honestly I am beginning to think that the only way is to leave. Every time I try to have these conversations it turns into “Well yeah, but you….” Like it’s an accusation competition. I have even spoken to him about how to resolve problems without escalating anger and resolution, but guess what he said? Gaaaah

Some good points here. Just to clarify a few things - the 'shed' is a properly insulated/ heated room, but no water/ loo. Only about 25 yards from house though. DH wanted it, arranged it, and it cost £28k about 5 years ago! Firstly it was a gym/teenage TV room then DH decided he wanted it as an office away from the house. My gym equipment is now squeezed into a tiny box room upstairs!
We are not short of rooms in the house. DH could use either of the DSs bedrooms which both have desks in but he says it's a waste of money to heat them. In fact DH tends to run the house colder (19c) than I would prefer (20-21c) and is always turning radiators off etc.
The issue with him moving into the small TV room is that it is one of the few rooms in the house I feel warm enough and comfortable in.

@frozendaisy - sorry, I can't relate to any of this, it sounds so 1950s!

I’m not married to a dick

I'm not an obsessive organiser to be honest - the bathroom drawer thing was done because it was just such a massive deep mess and nobody could ever find anything and DH just kept buying more of everything instead and tossing it in, which of course made it worse!

@AnyFucker

I’m not married to a dick

I fear this is probably the reality of the situation!

I think you have to pick your battles - bin smell I agree is gross, non smelly bins is part of the bin job. But organised bathroom drawer - that’s your thing and putting new toothpaste in the toothpaste zone that you have created is on you.

The lounge thing is more of an issue as I feel this impacts you more.

I think only solution is to come at this from feelings rather than blame, say “I know this is probably a bit irrational of me but it really makes me happy to have one room in the house where work doesn’t exist, that’s just ours for cosy relaxation. Even though this might be a bit hard to understand and I know it’s a lovely warm room so I do see how you would like to work in it, it would mean so much to me and make me feel much happier if you could choose a different place in the house to be your office area - any area you like as long as I get to keep my reading nook and cosy lounge. I understand the heating concern but we are in an empty nest now so let’s make the most of these years and enjoy more rooms in the house, we are after all saving money with the DC gone anyway! Anyway I’ll leave that up to you to decide now. Would you like a cup of tea? ”

And then if he doesn’t immediately change, just leave it. No need to start shouting. You might find that he takes it on board in his own time. Just explain your piece and move on.

Often the ingredients for compromise are just 1. Explaining how it makes you feel. 2. Acknowledging that this feeling is subjective and probably just down to your own unique quirks, and that there is nothing wrong with him not agreeing. 3. Asking them to change just because it would make you happy, rather than forcing them to accept that your way is correct/the objective reality. 4. Step back and let it sink in and let them be better on their own rather than having to admit wrong immediately.

In the kindest possible way…. You need to calm yourself down. If his stuff is in the way (as much as it can be in his own home) the. Have a cardboard box and put it in there and then in the corner of the room and use the said space.

I can pretty much guarantee that you will do stuff that drives him round the bend.
Is it really worth throwing away a marriage for some ‘bin juice’? If so then I suggest you may have bigger problems x
My hubby can be too tidy which whilst can be a positive is a right pain in the arse when I’m trying to find the school letters than need handing in and other stuff.
Empty nest can be hard try and focus on doing something together.

I have to be honest and say that I don't think these are things worth getting too wound up about.

My own DH does things that could drive me nuts if I focused on them - he leaves crumbs all over the kitchen surface. I rarely eat bread and crumbs make my flesh crawl, but I;m the one who clears them up every morning and lunch time.

He complains abotu other people leaving lights on or not clearing up after lunch and yet he leaves lights on and I clear his lunch stuff away al the time, I just don;t whine on about it.

If I focused on this stuff, we'd split up. Instead I focus on enjoying muddy walks with him, planning what gigs and shows we want to go to, chatting about DC, the news etc.

Are you perfect? Is it possible he does stuff for you or puts up with stuff you do without complaining?

I'm not saying what he does is not irritating. But it doesn't have to be an issue. It expends less energy to take toothpaste out of its box than it does to have a fight about it.

Also focus on having sex. I find most of my day to day irritation magical bounces off me like I’m a Teflon pan if I’m having enough sex.

I would definitely turn the shed back into a gym

How do you raise it at the moment?

I agree that none of these things amounts much on its own (except perhaps the unilateral decision about his home office) but isn't the problem that when there seem to be endless amounts of these things, every hour, every day, it begins to obscure any of the nicer things you might do together.
I'm by no means perfect, but if DH tells me (or I realise) that something I do annoys him, I try not to do it again. Sometimes it's just a matter of communication. One example was that I always used to leave cardboard boxes from deliveries in the garage as there was a period when he was selling stuff on ebay and wanted them to post things. Turned out he was pissed off as he thought I was leaving them for him to flatten for recycling. A simple discussion sorted that out and I now flatten them.
But if I mention anything he just keeps doing it. Sometimes I begin to wonder if he remembers that certain things that irritate me and does them as a form of control .

There’s a fairly popular book called nonviolent communication. Weird title but I’ve found some of the concepts useful in avoiding shouting matches etc. It might be worth a read but a super short summary is to say what you’ve observed, how it makes you feel and what you would like the person to do.

You avoid ‘judgements’ like you’re selfish, inconsiderate, you always do this etc which tend to escalate things rather than help.

And instead say something like

When I saw the toiletries on top of the drawer rather than placed in the different sections, it made me feel unappreciated because I’ve taken the time to organise that drawer and it makes my life easier to keep it that way. I would like you to place the toiletries in the separate sections in future.

Doesn’t mean he will necessarily listen to that request but you can communicate your needs clearly and hopefully avoid it escalating.

If he doesn’t actually want to change these things I think that’s a whole separate issue but as a starting point you should be able to communicate your needs without getting into an argument.

Hope that makes some sense.

My exh was similar