Help please with permanently angry dd - possible mental health issues

[Cuddlemequick]

I have a 9 nearly 10 year old dd. She has been angry since the day she was born and I'm at my wit's end. I desperately need somewhere to vent.

That is basically the bottom line of it but to give a little more context, she is going through puberty (body changes but no period yet), lockdown hit her hard, we moved city last year and I'm divorced from her extremely difficult dad. All of those things explain why her anger has ramped up in the last couple of years, but not really why she has been prone to anger from the beginning of her life, which is what I want to tackle.

She's currently in play therapy because I broke down to her teacher about it and school recommended play therapy as a first step. Her play therapist has suggested it's a relationship issue between dd and I, her SENCO has suggested possible ASD and heavy masking, her dad is saying it's because I moved her away from him (we moved 45 mins away for a fresh start and she now sees him regularly whereas when we lived near him it was inconsistently and on his terms).

She used to cry fairly constantly as a newborn and she'd wake up from naps and scream angrily which I put down to reflux. As a toddler she would stomp around angrily and have huge meltdowns which I put down to age/stage. When she started school she would cry before school and explode after school which I put down to tiredness. Now she's 9 she talks to me like shit, still has off the scale meltdowns, and rarely seems happy, and I've been putting it down to lockdown and, more recently, puberty. I can't keep putting it down to external things - this is the way she is.

She has friends in both old and new cities, we see them often. She does 2 after school activities per week that she enjoys - she can't handle doing more or she gets overtired. She has a fairly standard, easygoing life. I would say I'm more relaxed than strict - I've had to become relaxed over time in order to maintain my own sanity. I used to try and implement consequences around the behaviour/meltdowns but it just made things worse and she would scream that I was trying to control her.

On her dad's side of the family there are mental health problems. Her paternal uncle is undiagnosed (not in UK) but looks to me to be schizophrenic. He doesn't function at all and has spent the last 20 years in one room. Her dad also has undiagnosed issues, again to my very untrained eye, I would hazard a guess at ADHD or, at a push, bipolar disorder. My concern is that she has been born with a predisposition to poor mental health.

When I talk to her about her anger, she says there's nothing wrong and that I'm making her feel that there is something wrong with her.

Please please please - if anyone has any experience of an angry-by-nature child, I need to know if there's anything I can do and if not, how to live with it.

It's interesting that @Bellyups has given the same diagnosis as my DC1 had.
And sorry that this is long...
DC1 was very unsettled as a baby (hated being carried facing in towards me, was born screaming their lungs out, etc).
My suggestions are:
Decide on three things that are solid boundaries, (e.g. swearing at anyone in the house, violence towards anyone in the house), for example. You might also want to include outside of the house if that happens, but it may not.
Ignore the rest - don't sweat the small stuff, as the saying goes. (I quickly realised that pointing out every single thing would mean that I was constantly moaning at them.)
Have someone you can tag-team with - when it all gets a bit much you can hand off to someone else (this is very important so you can get a break, but you both need to be absolutely on board with how you deal with DC).
Insist on the school making an EHCP for her - that way it's set in law that the school should meet her requirements.
It's not all bad, OP.
If your child turns out to have a LD or other need, it's something you can deal with, as you know what the problem is. (My DC1 is now a fully functional independent adult.)

@bellyups I have wondered if it is more ADHD/ADD than ASD with my dd as she doesn't struggle with a lot of the 'typical' ASD characteristics.
Hearing all your stories of your angry children is making me feel so much better and less alone, thank you and hugs to all who are going through this or have offered advice!

I have wondered if it is more ADHD/ADD than ASD

They and other neurodiverse conditions share traits and are not mutually exclusive. A multi-disciplinary assessment can sort it all out, but for now don't think oh that's ASD, that's ADD, that's ADHD, that's PDA, that's DCD, etc. just use whatever techniques work for you and your DD.

It's quite common to have a diagnosis of one condition with others as secondaries.

My sister is absolutely volatile for lack of a better word-she's bipolar,borderline personality and I strongly suspect attachment disorder. She was a very difficult baby screaming day and night and never changed. Trouble with keeping relationships and falling out all the time with people. I'm not suggesting that's your daughter's issue it's just my observation. I really think narcissism is in play as well. Our parents most definitely passed some of it along as it can be genetically linked. Best of luck

Exactly blank. Mine is strong ADHD but ASD is not so. Then she has other things going alongside it.

I don't sweat the ASD stuff much, I focus on the ADHD but I would never have known this without the assessment and more importantly neither would DD.

She is relieved in a way she knows why she responds in certain ways.

@BlankTimes

Another vote to pursue an assessment and to look at Ross Greene's book The Explosive Child and his website Lives in the Balance.

Are you aware of any Sensory issues she may have which will trigger her anger (or more likely IMO frustration)?
This is a quick overview of sensory issues www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/social-care/disabilities/docs/young-people/Making%20Sense%20of%20Sensory%20Behaviour.pdf?

This site explains many things that can cause problems for neurodiverse people, perhaps some of the strategies mentioned can help you and her?
www.theottoolbox.com/

This explains why your DD seems perfectly ordinary in some ways and not in others
the-art-of-autism.com/understanding-the-spectrum-a-comic-strip-explanation/

I know it's a lot to take on board, but you've already worked out that ordinary parenting techniques aren't working for either of you so now it's time to have a look at neurodiversity as a possibility for your DD's behaviour. Ten out of ten for her SENCO, she sounds as though she's on the ball.

There's also a Facebook group of parents, who follow Ross Greene's method, called The B Team.

On the whole being angry since birth, it's possible she always found the world overwhelming due to sensory issues. Too loud, too bright, too busy, too many tastes. If you can recognise and minimise triggers that may help.

My DDs (ASD, GAD, Social anxiety) go to emotion is anger, if she's worried or overwhelmed or hurt or embarrassed or doesn't understand or made a mistake or thinks someone's looking at her the wrong way, it's always anger. The anger masks her anxiety and her struggle to understand friends and her feeling that she doesn't. We've found CBT useful, not so much the one to one, but a group program we did for anxious children. It helped her feel a bit less alone and out of place. There was also a parent component as at this age it's really the parent that has to do a lot of the work helping the child to implement the strategies.

@Cuddlemequick

Yes that's a good idea, I can ask at school. I asked if someone there could go through zones of regulation with her but there isn't really the staff or resources or time for them to do it. She's currently mid meltdown because she has suddenly decided she no longer wants to go to play therapy and I've said I won't cancel her sessions.

It's not really something you can just go through. It's a lot of building, first recognising the emotions and the feelings, then those feelings belonging to certain zones, then helping you child recognise when they're in each zone and building techniques that they can use to regulate and so on. Even with professional help it's a slow process.

Are there any times of day or bribes that would help her engage with you for 5 -10 minutes a day? The strategies have to be taught and practiced when things are calm enough that she will pay attention. You can get the textbooks, but you do need engagement, even if just for a few minutes. Things like zones of regulation are about how to avoid getting to the red zone (meltdown). If she won't engage at all then something like Ross Greene's program is probably a lot more suitable then zones or the alert program.

What about if the child says "no I'm FINE I don't need to go to a group or use strategies, you're the one that's making me feel like there's something wrong with me, you go to a group if you want to but I'm not going, I AM FIIIIIIIIINE" (to be read in screechy angry 9 year old voice)

Sorry for all the posts, just saw tech mentioned. Our ASD 6 year old is having a lot less meltdowns now we go straight to screens when he gets home from outings and school. The right amount of screen time helps him regulate. It allows him time out, because the world is too noisy, too busy, too bright, too much. 30 minutes of screen time, with some crunchy food and he's a different person. Chewing and fidgets and enough sleep help him regulate too, but nothing works as well as the right amount of screen time Too much screens isn't good either, it's a fine balance. We do a couple of set 30 minute blocks at specific times for school and non school days.

I kind of understand that, my daughter was like that too and it's why the assessment is useful.
It's coming from professionals who can help her understand that she IS fine, she's just neuro diverse and it's the reason why she feels x y z.
That medication perhaps will help with her adhd (if she is) and that evidence may help you get her into a school with smaller class sizes for secondary for example.

DD is so much better in her current school. Classes of 12, not as noisy etc and the medication that she only takes on school days helps her a lot.

I know it's really hard when they are volatile. I did say earlier I hug her when she's melting down but sometimes she really hates contact so I just have to be verbally calming but equally sometimes I have to just walk away. Leave her to have her own space.

Is she messy / always losing things / running late? if yes, I would also second possible ADD. Often undiagnosed as females.

@Cuddlemequick

What about if the child says "no I'm FINE I don't need to go to a group or use strategies, you're the one that's making me feel like there's something wrong with me, you go to a group if you want to but I'm not going, I AM FIIIIIIIIINE" (to be read in screechy angry 9 year old voice)

Mine mostly started therapy younger, 3DC, all Autistic. Early on there was a lot of bribery involved. Usually along the lines of getting tablet time. All the psychologists I've worked with recommend rewards, that surprised me. I've also done the you will be doing it no matter what, which isn't all that useful and sounds like it wouldn't work with your DD. Does she have a currency?

Our eldest was diagnosed the latest. She wasn't willing to engage until she was falling apart, lots of angry screaming followed by sobbing and saying she wanted to die. She was around 7 at this stage.

If my DD said that I'd agree with her, It's not that there's something wrong with her it's that she needs some extra support with this. "There is nothing wrong with you. Sometimes every single person needs a bit of extra help, everyone has things they find hard. I want to help you not to feel so angry all the time....". I've had various discussions along these lines with DD especially, but I'm her safe person, she wouldn't listen to this from anyone except me.

Yes we have experimented with using screen time straight after school. It does help her get through the post school collapse but then I have the problem of getting her off the tech again.

At the moment all she wants to do outside of school is get cosy in her room, watch netflix or call a friend, eat snacks, go to her swimming/dance class, read. So that's pretty much all we do. Which is fine by me, or would be if there wasn't so much anger directed at me if I dare look at her.

@lunaandhermoondragons I've had this exact conversation with my dd, but when I say I want to help you not feel so angry, she says I'm not angry except when you make me angry.

@Cuddlemequick

Yes we have experimented with using screen time straight after school. It does help her get through the post school collapse but then I have the problem of getting her off the tech again.

At the moment all she wants to do outside of school is get cosy in her room, watch netflix or call a friend, eat snacks, go to her swimming/dance class, read. So that's pretty much all we do. Which is fine by me, or would be if there wasn't so much anger directed at me if I dare look at her.

I use digital timers for that. It took time, and meltdowns, but they now come off when the timer beeps.

Is there anyone who could talk to her about the anger and needing some support to learn to deal with it, in a more general way? Point out that it can't be nice for her to feel that way so much and that she doesn't need to feel this way so much.

Honestly if there is no one she'll listen to or engage with I'd go straight to reading Ross Greene's The Explosive Child. If your child isn't in a place where they can engage, there's Plan C, which involves zero expectations and stepping right back for a time, before using the other strategies to work out a way forward.

I've ordered the book. Plan C sounds like what I'm doing now, maybe?

This is a good summary. drlizangoff.com/2020/05/04/plan-c/
Plan C involves removing or altering, for a time, expectations they're struggling with. It gives you both some time to recover.

Is the not wanting to do play therapy an ongoing issue or a one off? This might be something that she needs a break from or tweaking a bit. We've taken breaks from therapy when it was obvious it wasn't helping or when it was obvious they were too exhausted to get anything from it. There's a lot of information on his lives in the balance website and the FB group is good too if you're on Facebook.

It hurts to be facing a child who is hitting and kicking you, or screaming horrible things at you. It hurts more because you love them so deeply. I'm sorry you're having to deal with so much.

I hope the book or something posted here helps you both start to find a way forward.

Thanks @lunaandhermoondragons yes it really hurts and I find it so tiring to live with.

Having read through the plans, I can see that I have been using plan C for the last few years. If something starts causing conflict then it comes off the table. Later I might try to gradually reintroduce it and see how it works. Eg after school activities were very clearly too much when she was 5 or 6 so they stopped. They've just been reintroduced this year now that she's 9 and can manage them and even enjoy them.

As for play therapy, she's had one term so far, was enjoying it and liked the therapist. Then we had Christmas hols and I think the idea of going back to it is causing her anxiety. Same with going back to school/swimming etc. It's that feeling after you've had a holiday of going back to structure. I've told her she is going back to it and we will review in 3 weeks.

Sometimes I find she prefers to be told what she is doing (with activities that she has previously enjoyed and now has new anxiety about) rather than being negotiated with. I think she appreciates the help of getting over the anxiety rather than allowing her to give in to it, if that makes sense. Even if she is still raging and screaming at me about it, I can sometimes sense relief from her when I lay down the law.

That sounds like a good plan to review in 3 weeks. DD needs me to do that too, when her anxiety is bad, decisions and choices can be very overwhelming for her.

There is another option to potentially consider down the road, at some stage discussing medication with your GP. It wouldn't necessarily have to be for long , but medication can give some mental space to engage with things like CBT or zones.

I went cold reading this OP, you could have been describing me as a child.

I was ragingly autistic and undiagnosed. I have confirmed ADHD and am being referred for ASD, I also suspect ADD with OCD and possibly some traits of ODD.

As a child I completely withdrew into myself at home, I wanted to be on my own, didn’t want to be played with, held, touched, bathed, spoken to etc. Every waking second out the house was spent with me trying to mask, to be normal etc so when I came home it was just destructive mode.

This manifested a lot as anger, overly emotional, sheer frustration, devastation and I tried SO HARD to make people understand, that was all I wanted, someone just to get it rather than to be upset or angry with me.

It sounds at the moment like the first steps are being made. In addition to SENCO/CAMHS could you see if you can get the GP involved? Is there an option to be referred privately at all?

I have nothing but sympathy and the upmost respect for you OP, it’s exhausting to live with. Please know she loves you and most likely explodes because you are her unconditional safe space.

Thank you @arethechildreninbedyet were you aware that you were angry or that there was anything different about you? My dd says that she is not angry and she doesn't feel different from her friends. So I can't talk to her about it because obviously I don't want to make her feel like she's different when she currently (apparently) feels fine. I'm between a rock and a hard place really.

I think my current mindset is, let her blow all her anger and frustration at home, at me, so that she can continue to function outside of home.

She SAYS she's fine, she's doing well at school, she has friends, her life isn't limited. The biggest impact is on her relationship with me, and my energy levels.

I've just watched this recently and got the book and it has helped a lot! Might be worth a watch.

Oh, OP, I so wish I could reach over the internet and give you a hug. I know exactly what you mean, and I've been there.
Knowing that you are the 'safe place', but also the one that frustration is taken out on, is so terribly difficult to bear. I really feel for you.
It won't last for ever and you will get through this.
I do urge you to re-read what I said about having someone else who can take the load and give you a break.