When does a bad relationship become what you would call an abusive one?

[eazyduzit]

I was talking to my friend about my relationship today and she said 'what he has done to you is abusive, do you know that?' and to be honest, I didn't, or don't. I said 'yeah yeah, he's been so crap' but when I put the phone down I actually felt quite shocked. It's bothered me all day since.

So, about 3 years ago we had a bad argument and both said some hurtful things. My DH admits he hasn't really gotten over that argument. For the last 3 years he has:

1. Ignored me for long stretches of time. Periods of months. Silent treatment. For example, waking up in the morning and saying good morning to all of the children, but not me.

2. I don't know how to explain this without sounding silly, but I feel it. He plays with the children or does things with them in a way that makes me feel left out. It's like he has built this world around them and only they are involved in that world, I don't exist.

3. Left our bed and sleeps on the sofa (this is intermittent, but it just feels so rejecting)

4. Tells me every now and again he doesn't love me anymore and no longer wants me intimately

5. When I try to talk about our problems he says cruel things and is highly critical of me. It definitely feels like he's trying to be mean, but he says he's just being honest. It could be that, some people are just more blunt

6. If I mention anything good that I have ever done he casts that as the past

7. If I ask a question or try to engage him in conversation, he frowns, or looks angry, leaving me wondering whether I have done something wrong, said something out of turn, I don't know. It's strange, it just seems like me just being me is enough to make him exasperated. On word answers. Like blood from a stone.

8. Says he's leaving, and he has half moved out.

There's more, but on the whole it makes me feel stupid, boring, ugly, unwanted, unloveable around him. I actually don't think I am a bad looking woman, I think I'm ok actually! Around other people I am still me, laugh, jokey, chatty, I don't think most people would know how incredibly sad I am. Around other men I still feel attractive, I don't think I am ugly, I'm at least average(!) But around him, I have noticed if he walks into room I might walk out just because I think he dislikes me so much I don't want to be in his sight. I feel like he's disgusted by me. The feeling that someone dislikes me just makes me want to disappear or run and hide, and I think it is especially because he used to love me. Around him I feel shit. I've got so little confidence. In other areas of my life, I'm ok.

Now, I had never thought any of this was abusive as such, mainly because I have thought maybe other women wouldn't feel this bad, they'd be more resilient or stronger, and it is just me. I've been thinking about it today. If someone punches you, you bruise, some skin tones might hide it, but it would show on me and many of us. The evidence of the hurt is clear cut and obvious, obvious cause and effect. But this is emotional, and I guess I think some other women wouldn't be so badly impacted by it, so it's got a lot to do with me the way I am feeling. If I said to him 'this is abusive, the mean things you say and do' he would deny it. He would say it wasn't his intention.

So last night, no sorry, the night before, he accused me of not making much of an effort around Christmas. He is right, I kind of stepped back and just let him lead on everything. This is really unlike me. But I was just petrified of doing anything wrong and I just thought if I am led by him, if I don't initiate I can't upset him and he won't be mean to me. But then he criticised me for not doing enough and I just broke down in tears and told him I'm often too scared to speak or do anything through fear of drawing criticism, or upsetting him which would lead to a feeling of hostility or tension, and as I said it I realised that I'm kind of broken around him. Not elsewhere, just around him. And it's weird, that argument we had 3 years ago, we both said things, but I've reconciled what he said to me, he apologised, I accepted. I apologised, but he hasn't accepted, he says that actually what I said just shows I'm not the one for him, we're on different 'wavelengths' and our relationship just won't work. So what he said is done and dusted, but what I said will never be so. It's part of who I am, it revealed my character. And everytime that argument is mentioned, I end up apologising again, he says ' I don't want you to apologise again', but then what else am I supposed to do? It was 3 years ago. I can't forever be punished for it, can I? It's just forever held against me, and the reason my children will now be raised by separated parents. And I feel awful about it, it's all my fault. That somehow I've got to save the relationship.

Since I cried a couple of nights ago he has changed, actually. And on that night he said 'the things you are saying about how you feel, it's like you're making out I'm beating you or I'm one of those men'. At the time I said 'no, I've never said you have beaten me'. But after what my friend said, I now wonder whether I am displaying some of the signs of a crushed woman. I'm rattled by it. My sister was in a physical DV relationship and I vowed that would never happen to me, and so the idea that my relationship is or has been abusive it's unsettling to say the least.

Look, this has been a long post. And it's worth saying he's not always engaging in these behaviours, but they aren't rare, at all.

And the past two days he has been much nicer, and I can feel a relief in my body. I noticed I wasn't worried as much when I was around him. At one point I was with the kids and I laughed with them while he was in the car driving with us and I hadn't done that in ages.

Your friend is absolutely right.

Please don't dismiss this kind of abuse as "lesser"

I'm the child from an abusive marriage and the emotional/verbal abuse is by far the harder to deal with.

Please get help and support to leave and don't blame yourself for this.

If he couldn't forgive whatever happened with the argument he should have left then! Not stayed and punished you! So childish and selfish!

I think from some comments and actions of his, that you also need to be prepared that there may be an ow in the wings I'm afraid too. The semi moving out, lack of intimacy, not "in love" with you...

Is that what the argument was about? You had suspicions? Or had he (without cause) accused you?

(You don't have to tell us but consider these questions yourself)

My dad also drew we children into participating in the emotional abuse presented as "humour" - sickening to realise as an adult please don't continue to put your dc through that

OP, I don’t understand how you can still believe you have a relationship with this man. It’s obvious that it died long ago. Only you can say whether you’re still cohabiting through habit, fear, stasis, financial need.

No one needs to wait for the word ‘abusive’ to end a bad relationship. Yours is over. You need to think about how to move into your and your children’s future.

He's a vicious, cold man. Abusive. He says:

" I'm not the one for him, we're on different 'wavelengths' and our relationship just won't work". Fine. You're still the mother of his children. It's been 3 years since a row where you were both unkind. If you're not right for each other fine, but why would any decent human spend so much effort making their co-parent feel so awful unless he was a cruel, nasty bully? You need to stop caring what he thinks. He doesn't want you. He is trying, fairly successfully, to make you so small you dry up and blow away so he can carry on YOUR life in your home with your children.

You know this already but there is NOTHING to save. Your children will be a million times better for out of such a toxic environment, learning that it's okay to treat a partner this way, seeing their mother too cowed to make an effort at Christmas. They will thank you, even if not right away.

He is emotionally abusive towards you. Were there none of these behaviours before the argument? Or has the argument given him the excuse to be even more obviously abusive than he was before?

You say he's been better the last couple of days. That is because he senses a change in you. It's part of the cycle, he's on his best behaviour, you'll breathe a sigh of relief (as you have said), think things will be okay then BOOM, he'll punish you again. It will carry on like this. He will not change.

Do not tell him you think he is being abusive, just start on building your self esteem and trying not to be affected by his behaviour. Easier said than done, I know

In my head recently I thought 'I wonder whether he would be happier with me dead?'

Keep that thought in your head. I don't want to sound melodramatic but it is a possibility. Do whatever you need to to keep yourself safe.

Please consider contacting Women's Aid. They will help guide you through coming to terms with what he is doing to you, give you any advice you might need and support you whether you stay or go

What a horrible way to live, OP.
Some big changes need to happen. Making them will involve a good bit of work and upheaval but something big needs to happen. You can’t live like this for the rest of your life.

I answer to your thread title: It doesn't matter, because if a relationship is either bad or abusive, you leave. Your question is a bit like 'When does an angry dog become a dangerous dog?' It really doesn't matter - you just need to get away from it. Pulling apart the ins and outs of what each growl might mean is a really bad idea; you don't need to understand. You only need to respond to your feeling that's telling you to put distance in between you and the dog.

So, stop pulling apart the whys and wherefores of his behaviour. There's one rule when it comes to relationships: stay away from people who make you feel shit, and especially those who make you feel shit about yourself. That's it. One rule. It doesn't matter how they do it, why they do it, whether you've caused it (because you never have), whether they'll stop doing it, what happened in their past to make them do it, what habits they have that make them do it... nothing matters except that when you're with them, you regularly feel like shit.

Your feelings are the signposts. Not some idea of 'whether he's wrong or justified', not some idea of 'maybe I did the wrong thing and set him off'. After all (and I don't think for a minute that this is the case) even if you had done something wrong and caused him to treat you badly, you still ought to get away from him because it still would signify an unhealthy relationship.

Our bodies are very clever. If we're somewhere that's not good for us, they tell us. Our job, in order to respect that natural part of ourselves that responds with pure instinct, that true part of ourselves (it's the part of us that really needs love and respect, in order for us to feel contented and fulfilled) is to respond to those bodily feelings. If someone gives you a sinking feeling, a sick feeling, an anxiety feeling, a scared feeling, a tense feeling... respond to that. Move yourself, physically, to a place where you stop feeling these things. We all have inbuilt sensors. Those who choose not to respond to these inner signs are the ones who stay in poor relationships. But the inner signs are the only signs we have that point us to where 'happy' is. There are no rules, and there is no map.

Your feelings are in charge: you are responsible. You are in charge. Take the responsible steps to get away from this relationship.

I tried for myself and for my children. There are four under 7.

We actually had a really lovely relationship before this. Not a 'kinda ok' relationship, a really great one. I am in a type of shock, I think, even after 3 years. The 15 years before were so good I counted myself lucky.

It is very jekyll and Hyde as some of be sad d above.

We don't say mean things to each other, we had an argument 3 years ago. The argument before that was the night of the grenfell fire, and there was no blaspheme, no harsh words, just shouting. It lasted maybe a minute. We came home from work, apologised, never mentioned again. This last argument was also short, he said something mean, then I did. Then later that day he apologised, as did I, and I thought it woukd be as it had been the previous 15 years, but for some reason he held on to it. Within a month, I felt bad. Kept asking if anything was wrong, he said no. Around 6 months later he said it was that argument. He said he'd talk to people to get his head round it. But that didn't work. In the meantime he just can't help but push me away, short temper, can't stand to talk to me, and it's gone on. He tried counselling but said he couldn't stick at it talking to people about his feelings. That brings us to about a year ago.

Around a month ago I told him I just couldn't take it anymore. Could he move out as he'd been saying he needed space and maybe space would help him shake it. But we spent Christmas together which brings us to now.

I have told him the only reason the kids haven't been badly impacted by this is because they are so young they don't u deratabd the nuances in our communication, but my eldest soon will.

So he's now saying he's making the move permanent.

Just honestly, I didnt think about it being abusive. Someone above said its a word. To me it's a bit more than that. It conceptualises it differently and it's alreasy shaping my responses and my way of assessing what the heck I'm currently in.

I put my hand on my heart and say the children are very happy right now. But it can't stay this way.

I do wonder about co-parenting.

He says he really didn't realise how much it was all affecting me. Maybe I was hiding it well? I don't know. He has apologised and we're now in a good patch for the last few days.

But I honestly think it was abusive and I wasn't really aware he was capable of that. Now that I'm actually thinking about it all, I'm taken aback.

I think I might not be explaining myself well at all.

Yes, it’s hard as you don’t want to split up the family. And now things are better between you you’re wondering what to do.
You don’t have to be hasty. But if, over the next few months, you are “mostly unhappy” you should reconsider.
Have you both tried counselling?

I'm a qualified psychologist.

Yep! Imagine that.

I think that made this worse because I had apparently boundless empathy for him in his pain, I'm so bloody good at empathy for others, and it seems not enough compassion for myself.

Your qualification doesn’t help at all when it comes to your own relationship - the dynamic is one you’ve got used to over a period of time and you’ll likely not have realised how much you’ve changed to accommodate him and his behaviour. Don’t beat yourself up for not realising before now - his behaviour is abusive.

Where your psychology knowledge should help is in understanding that even though they are young, your children will be impacted by the abuse in the relationship. You know the early years are so important for child development, their attachment patterns are formed in their pre-school years. At very least, they’ve not had the benefit of knowing who you are as a mum without the impact of abuse on you - you haven’t been able to freely be yourself.

It sounds like it’s a very new realisation for you - take time to process it, and to decide what you want for yourself, and to plan your next moves. Please don’t think he’ll change - his behaviour is his responsibility and on some level he knows exactly what he’s doing, it’s purposeful and regardless of where you think it’s coming from, it’s not ok.

Have some empathy for yourself, for the parts of you that live in fear, the parts of you that deserves a living, caring, respectful partnership. Let that person out, hear what that part of you is saying. Then leave.

So let’s get this a bit clearer up. He said he’d move out. He’s half moved out. He’s been so bad and refused to engage in counselling that you felt you had no choice to ask him to go. He didn’t and now he’s being nice again. Do you see the pattern here? When you’ve got to the point of no return he suddenly backtracks when the reality of actually doing hard work hits. Counselling is hard work and commitment and he didn’t follow through. Moving out is hard work and get didn’t follow through. He’s doing nothing and taking everything. My honest opinion is that now is the time you have to stand up to him. Have some empathy for yourself! What would you counsel one of your clients to do? Stand firm. Say “it’s great we’re getting on better now so I think it’s now time you did what you said you would do and move out” I honestly think once he’s gone and you’ve got some space to actually breathe and recuperate you’ll wonder why you put up with this crap for so long.

@barbedwired

Read the Lundy Bancroft book Why does he do that - inside the minds of angry and controlling men. You don't have to buy it it's in pdf format on the internet.

They don't have to beat you to be abusive

Seconding this advice! That book is gold!

Wise words from @Jellycatspyjamas.

It's hard to see the woods for the trees in relation to your job. I see it a lot at work, (social worker) where the endless 'caring' for others means you sometimes forget to care about yourself.

This will be impacting your children.

@eazyduzit

I tried for myself and for my children. There are four under 7.

We actually had a really lovely relationship before this. Not a 'kinda ok' relationship, a really great one. I am in a type of shock, I think, even after 3 years. The 15 years before were so good I counted myself lucky.

It is very jekyll and Hyde as some of be sad d above.

We don't say mean things to each other, we had an argument 3 years ago. The argument before that was the night of the grenfell fire, and there was no blaspheme, no harsh words, just shouting. It lasted maybe a minute. We came home from work, apologised, never mentioned again. This last argument was also short, he said something mean, then I did. Then later that day he apologised, as did I, and I thought it woukd be as it had been the previous 15 years, but for some reason he held on to it. Within a month, I felt bad. Kept asking if anything was wrong, he said no. Around 6 months later he said it was that argument. He said he'd talk to people to get his head round it. But that didn't work. In the meantime he just can't help but push me away, short temper, can't stand to talk to me, and it's gone on. He tried counselling but said he couldn't stick at it talking to people about his feelings. That brings us to about a year ago.

Around a month ago I told him I just couldn't take it anymore. Could he move out as he'd been saying he needed space and maybe space would help him shake it. But we spent Christmas together which brings us to now.

I have told him the only reason the kids haven't been badly impacted by this is because they are so young they don't u deratabd the nuances in our communication, but my eldest soon will.

So he's now saying he's making the move permanent.

Just honestly, I didnt think about it being abusive. Someone above said its a word. To me it's a bit more than that. It conceptualises it differently and it's alreasy shaping my responses and my way of assessing what the heck I'm currently in.

I put my hand on my heart and say the children are very happy right now. But it can't stay this way.

I do wonder about co-parenting.

He says he really didn't realise how much it was all affecting me. Maybe I was hiding it well? I don't know. He has apologised and we're now in a good patch for the last few days.

But I honestly think it was abusive and I wasn't really aware he was capable of that. Now that I'm actually thinking about it all, I'm taken aback.

I think I might not be explaining myself well at all.

Well reading that I can't help but think that either... what you said was SO heinous that no rational reasonable person could ever get past it in 3 years of really really not trying. Or he is narcissistic and you've flipped his switch. they are attracted to very empathetic people because those people fill the void so well and it... works.

So much truth in this post by @moremoony

He’s bullying you because he can and because it’s now a habit and he enjoys the thrill it gives him and the ego boost he gets. It’s addictive. He probably doesn’t enough really know fully he’s doing it but breaking you down appeases his anger at the argument. Some people can’t bear to feel any sense of shame or guilt and so they go to OTT stubbornness and anger to avoid feeling and difficult emotions. By being the way he is, your husband avoids feeling any difficult emotions., he gets to punish you and elevate his own sense of righteousness. It’s gone too far. He’s turned nasty and there really isn’t anyway back. He doesn’t care about your feelings anymore and it paves the way for him to have an affair as he’s the poor man who has an awful wife and how he has suffered and tried. It’s just classic. You are at the lowest point and really you need to now take that huge leap and get out and build your life and self confidence back up without this awful marriage holding you back.

He also refuses to have counselling as again, that involves bringing up painful emotions and is hard. Much easier to put all of the pain on to you. It's 100% abusive - whether he consciously realises that or not (and I suspect he does know what he's doing more than he'd let on). I think he has latched onto whatever you said and is using it as a stick to beat you with in order to have an outlet for all his emotions/anger at you/life/whatever.

Your children are happy but I'd be surprised if they didn't sense something even if they don't have the words for it. My DS was 5 and certainly sensed something when my ex was emotionally abusing his gf.

Whether you can label it abuse or not isn't the issue. If that's making you view it differently, that's because the word validates you, it allows you to feel justified in feeling bad about the way you're being treated. You need to learn that this:

but on the whole it makes me feel stupid, boring, ugly, unwanted, unloveable around him

is enough.

There are a list of recognised 'abusive' behaviours, but if you rely on those lists, you will be missing the point, which is that any action could be abusive, dependent on context. For example, if you were terrified of spiders, and your partner kept putting spiders near you deliberately, that would be an abusive action. But if you loved spiders, it wouldn't. It's not the action itself that's abusive, it's the disrespect of your feelings. So, your feelings have to lead you, rather than whether the action can be labeled 'abusive'.

Your body will tell you if something is abusive to you, and that's the only metric you need to use. There's no external list of rules about what is acceptable/unacceptable to you. The lists of 'abusive' behaviours are generic: all of them would be classed as abusive to all people. But the list are not conclusive, which is why it can be risky to rely on the label. You could end up thinking 'Well, putting spiders next to your partner isn't on the list, so it must be acceptable, I need to just put up with it, I'm just a bit pathetic if I can't cope' etc.

It's not about the argument. I imagine if you think about it you might notice things that happened before the argument. I'd also almost guarantee that he deliberately picked the argument with you, probably using something that he knew would really push your buttons.

He's said that he's making the move permanent? Good. Your only response to that should be "When are you leaving?"

All of it is abusive, and more importantly it's setting your children a terrible example of how relationships should be.

Thanks.

My plan is to initiate the conversation about the children this weekend, something along the lines of 'you're leaving, let's talk about how to introduce this to the children, reassure them and also to discuss when and how you'll see them'.

I'm looking at them now and I feel rotten about it, but they are better off with a happy mum. I know I won't ever be happy with him again. People who hurt others, especially in a prolonged fashion, because they themselves are hurt, need to do a lot of emotional work. Sadly for him, that's beyond him, and now so must I be.

Thanks you all

So glad that you’ve found the strength to take the next step towards a peaceful and happier future . All the best @eazyduzit

I made not much effort and looked in the mirror this morning, I thought I looked quite good actually! I've got a nice face, thank you very much and the baby fat is dropping off nicely. I'm not toned, but I'm 1 stone off my pre 2nd baby weight, which is when I looked my best.

My children are home after a positive lateral flow. I loved them so hard, we had a whale of a time.

Had some good chats with him, too.

He's lost something so good. People who don't value love, life and laughter don't bloody deserve it.

His loss, totally.

@eazyduzit

I made not much effort and looked in the mirror this morning, I thought I looked quite good actually! I've got a nice face, thank you very much and the baby fat is dropping off nicely. I'm not toned, but I'm 1 stone off my pre 2nd baby weight, which is when I looked my best.

My children are home after a positive lateral flow. I loved them so hard, we had a whale of a time.

Had some good chats with him, too.

He's lost something so good. People who don't value love, life and laughter don't bloody deserve it.

His loss, totally.

Lovely post OP! When I once asked for advice here on my own marriage, one post stood out for me. A mumsnetter said that she considered herself to be fabulous, and anyone who could not see that could simply step aside. Such a simple statement but I LOVED it - I really had never thought of myself that way.

@eazyduzit so happy to hear that you are planning to separate OP. Now comes the hard part. You got this, you deserve to be happy and your kids deserve to grow up in a nontoxic home. Remember that.

A lot of women on these threads have been through similar. Keep posting for support if you need it.

Good luck

@Itsallinthebook I have sent you a pm 😊