Provocative ;-) but this is most of what you need to know before selecting a man to have children with

[Bouledepetanque]

Once the egg card is played, it's pretty much game over for women.

Have you got the link to the wider study?

As usual really depends on the woman and the circumstances ....no one says you have to take a year off on maternity leave - I've taken 20 weeks each time (main earner) and within a few months of retuning both times I've had significant pay rises and promotions.

Doesn't take a genius to see the link between 12 months out of the workplace and then probably back to back maternity leave and earnings? 🤷🏻‍♀️

www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/gender-wage-gap-childcare-penalty

Of course it's averages here. I'm not attacking or criticising anyone's lifestyle choice or saying that NO women recover their earnings (or earn more) after having children

I’d argue that is in no way “most” of what you need to know before selecting a man to have kids with!!

I don’t see why this is always portrayed negatively.

I took the 1 year mat leave then back part time route and it was great to have the option to do that. Didn’t occur to me that this was “game over”, quite the reverse.

Also didn’t occur to me that someone should keep paying me my old full time salary when I was working part time either, which seems to often be the implication.

@DropYourSword

I’d argue that is in no way “most” of what you need to know before selecting a man to have kids with!!

Agreed.

I was expecting great wisdom here!

I know, I said provocative for a reason, but it does represent "actual" outcomes . It highlights the need to choose a partner who is kind, power-sharing, appreciative of your nurturing capacities since in all likelihood you will lose power in society after childbirth and a high quality partner will reduce the impact of that loss of power.

That is a rubbish graph. Minus 2 what? Percentage of pre-kid pay? Pomegranates? Danish Kr?

What Danish statistician would use 'kids' on a chart anyway?

It highlights the need to choose a partner who is kind, power-sharing, appreciative of your nurturing capacities since in all likelihood you will lose power in society after childbirth and a high quality partner will reduce the impact of that loss of power.

Very well said OP

@Bouledepetanque

I know, I said provocative for a reason, but it does represent "actual" outcomes . It highlights the need to choose a partner who is kind, power-sharing, appreciative of your nurturing capacities since in all likelihood you will lose power in society after childbirth and a high quality partner will reduce the impact of that loss of power.

What tosh

I don't see what it has got to do with what partner you pick at all

It does however have everything to do with what employer you pick and the career choices we make for ourselves

See I don't think it's provocative at all. We all know it's true.

But there's no holy grail answer. There's needs to be a huge shift in society and how we view mother and fathers.

I believe all of society is responsible for that. Not just men, but women too.

That article doesn't really address the fact that lots of women go part time or give up work. And the reason for that is hugely varied. From some women saying they have a biological need to stay at home to not being able to afford childcare to both people viewing the man's job as the priority.

When it comes to shared parental leave, in my years as a manager, I have found women are the ones more likey to nor want to share it. They view it as their leave.

The couples that have shared it, in my limited experience, have had a much more equal responsibility for the child after mat leave finishes, than those that don't.

A huge part of the gender pay gap when looking at these things is women reducing work hours. Alot may be single parents(more likey to be women) who can not work full time.

Then we have the fact that a man doing the basics is a hero and a woman doing the basics, isn't focused on her career. Or women having to take on most of the emergency care, which does impact a career.

I have also known far to many men who pretend they have no flexibility and women who support that notion. When it's clearly not true. Which ends up with the women taking on more.

I think its too easy to say that employers need to do xyz. But personally, I think its bigger than that. Until men and women truly share responsibility for the child/children this gap will always be here.

I appreciate its a hot topic to say that women actually DO more caregiving than men, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up. I think it's realistic to assume it could happen to you, simply because you are a caring person, which is universally viewed as a "good thing"!

www.caregiver.org/resource/women-and-caregiving-facts-and-figures

Important, yes, but only a part of what women should think about before having a child with someone.

Has to do with career choices of women. Many who ‘sacrifice careers and earnings’ didn’t really have one to start with.
Nothing wrong with that if a job is all you want but then don’t blame anything else than the choices you made.
Women also chose to give up work or reduce hours rather than go back. Again perfectly acceptable choice but then can’t complain when being out of workplace for 10 years you’re not on a high salary

Well, assertive women with high self esteem capable of being appropriately selfish seem to make up the responders. I am pleased to see there are so many out there.

Despite that, the statistics seem to indicate there is some awareness raising to do in helping women choose decent partners and retain enough power after children arrive for their lives to continue to feel satisfying to them.

I don’t really think “choose better partners” is helpful advice.
Mostly because nobody purposely chooses a bad partner. They either think that they’re a good partner, or they have self esteem issues/previous abuse that makes their partner look “good” in comparison.

Also, I was with my partner for 11 years before we had a kid. When I got pregnant we were both working full time and in a great place relationship-wise. Within a year he had lost his job, become extremely depressed and cheated on me.
People change. Lots of men turn shitty when their partner is pregnant.

At best, “choose better partners” sounds naive, and at worst it’s condescending.

I don't understand what you mean by "power". Do you just mean earning power?

DH and I share looking after our child because both of us massively prefer doing that to working. So the idea that the higher earner (which is me, and ATM I do more hours, but that's short term and is to do with the fact we want another kid and so the more I get paid while on mat leave the better) has more power just doesn't relate to anything in my life. DH and I have equal power, in as much as either of us has any power at all.

Who gave you the monopoly on wisdom?

What the graph doesn't show is the corresponding increase in outgoings once children are born. My earnings have dropped but my DH has picked up more of the spending. A better graph would be disposable income after outgoings.

I don't think that having a baby and taking time off paid work necessarily equates to "losing power in society". Mothers can be extremely powerful and influential in their homes, in their communities and in the world.

@Magnited

That is a rubbish graph. Minus 2 what? Percentage of pre-kid pay? Pomegranates? Danish Kr?

What Danish statistician would use 'kids' on a chart anyway?

I was thinking that.

Where are the damn units?!

Anyway; I earn more since going on maternity leave.. they gave me a pay rise. Took 10 months first time will probably take 8 this time I’m getting bored. But my earnings did drop whilst off because of smp.

They will be higher on my return so I suppose I don’t fit ☹️☹️☹️

I think it would be more helpful for the dilemma women face to be talked about.

My own view is that generally speaking (I don't claim universally) having a baby really puts women in a dilemma of wanting two things at once. To be both totally focused on her babies/small children AND also to be able to progress her career and power.

There is no magic way of having both sadly.

This reality has to be faced and the things you can't have given up and mourned.

The biggest reality, I found, for both men and women, is that you are a woman and not a man, or you are a man and not a woman.

If you're a woman you carry and feed the baby and you are preoccupied with it in way a man just is not, much as he loves you both.

If you're a man you have to accept that this is something you can't do - you're not a woman, you can't carry the baby or feed it, your partner is focussed on something other than you.

I do think it is important that equal pay and Women's rights be fostered and men allowed and encouraged to feel like babies are their province, too. I'm not saying roles are rigid of course not.

But all the societal and legislative advances in the world will not change the fact that a woman who wants a child has to make some difficult choices and give up some things in order to have others. If we ONLY blame men/society then I think it masks this reality, to our detriment.

If you're truly in touch with the reality that it is a choice you have to make then it helps to make a good choice and recruit others to help you.

A woman who knows she can't "have it all" will be best placed to negotiate some sort of good enough compromise that allows the best chance of everyone in the family's needs being met as best as possible.

Manically trying to have it all, or simply railing at men/society is less likely to lead to an arrangement that meets needs most of the time, because you aren't realistically in touch with the choices you want to make and the support you need to make them.

This thread is hilarious.

So many posters jumping in to say that somehow it doesnt apply to them, that they kept the same wage blablabla.

Forgetting that they are not average. They might well have done even better than they have. And that having children affect women’s life in a way that it doesn’t affect men’s life.
Basically trying to hard sell this idea that women can have it all and actually HAVE TO have it all, be a ‘mother’, take time off to be with the baby, and still have a stellar career.

Let’s forget that it’s that sort if attitude that is detrimental to women tbh. Because it’s not possible to have it all for most women. And even for those who do, it more of ten than not comes at a cost. Realised and accepted or not.

In answer to the point about being naive I suppose I get very disturbed by what seems to be social injustice and I feel partner selection is one of the decisive areas where this plays out for women.

As for having power, I think in essence having power is about the capacity to get your needs and desires met. Having access to money is one of the ways people can do that.

I think we don't talk explicitly enough about power as women or as a society as a whole, and that seems to translate into women having less power than men

It seems the essence of a satisfying relationship is the feeling that things are "fair" for both parties.

Women earning less than men after childbirth COULD be an indication of unfairness at play.