MEN of MN. The last of 3 personal questions.

[bunglebells]

So, we've done the first two controversial subjects. I started these partially out of self-interest but also as I often read threads where assumptions are made. I though it would be useful to hear things from men. First thread was popular, second not so much.

The first thread I thought proved that SOME MEN DO NOT WATCH PORN. So maybe some women who say this about their partners should be believed. Granted, probably more men do, or lie, or minimise etc. But some simply do not.

Anyway. Last of three. PAYING FOR SEX. Again, hundreds of threads debating this or discussing the devastation caused by it in a relationship. The aim of this thread if it does get any replies is not that. I am interested, not in why someone never would. Not in why someone is a regular punter and thinks it's okay.

I am interested in if any men of Mumsnet... have done and wouldn't now/ever again.

Is doing it once/ever an indication of deeply held attitudes to women that will never change. Or, as seems to be the case often, have you done this when younger, more foolish, drunk, in Amsterdam (etc.), on a stag night, in curiosity. And yet, you would never do it now for whatever reason. Is it something that can mean nothing (for the man) in terms of future behaviours. I would not for a minute claim it means nothing from a feminist/women's perspective, just trying to keep the thread from veering towards absolute ethics, and more about past versus present versus future actions and behaviour.

Discuss? 😎

Considering there aren’t that many men on MN and that most of the few there are are unlikely to be broadly representative of men in the UK, why not post this on somewhere like Reddit? The responses will be much wider and very different and therefore more useful to whatever survey or research you’re carrying out.

@ComtesseDeSpair

Considering there aren’t that many men on MN and that most of the few there are are unlikely to be broadly representative of men in the UK, why not post this on somewhere like Reddit? The responses will be much wider and very different and therefore more useful to whatever survey or research you’re carrying out.

I'm not doing a survey or research. Well, only in my own head. I've been on here 14/15 years and kept meaning to ask variations thereof. Some self interest along the way, but actually also motivated by comments on here sometimes. Especially the porn. 99% of men watch it and the other 1% lie about it. That's obviously just not a fact.

I guess it will be very limited. But the first thread was really interesting. I don't fancy Reddit as don't want it to get into a big discussion about who has done what, and hearing any justifications.

I may be wrong, but I have a vague feeling many of the men on here are quite regular (with some weirdos etc ), so I was interested to hear more from MN regulars in a way (albeit with names changed if necessary)...

@ComtesseDeSpair

Considering there aren’t that many men on MN and that most of the few there are are unlikely to be broadly representative of men in the UK, why not post this on somewhere like Reddit? The responses will be much wider and very different and therefore more useful to whatever survey or research you’re carrying out.

I am prepared for the thread to die before it gets started of course

One thing I have noticed is that paying for sex is no longer something men keep quiet about. When I was in my 20s (in the 1970s) no bloke would ever have admitted to paying for sex. It marked you out as a major loser. Guys who regarded themselves as "ladies men" (aka "players") would proudly state that they had never had to pay for a shag. Now it seems that part of any stag-night or lads weekend away involves boasting about how many professionals you've given work to. Odd. BTW I've never paid for sex and have no plans to start doing so.

Nope, never paid for sex, as a student I used to do bar work and would drive past the area where the street walkers worked in the city I lived in, none of them looked attractive, nothing like pretty woman.

@FabulousMrFifty

Nope, never paid for sex, as a student I used to do bar work and would drive past the area where the street walkers worked in the city I lived in, none of them looked attractive, nothing like pretty woman.

I don't think street walkers are really a thing anymore though are they? It's all online now and unfortunately rife with it only getting worse (all the sex work is real work libfem nonsense).

Of course you still have women on the streets.

They're not all online.

Isn't something I've ever considered. Obviously it may be the only way some guys will ever have sex but then again others see as something on their bucket list. The thought of paying for it seems a bit sad to me having only had sex in conventional relationships.

@coronaway,
Im in my 50’s and went to UNI in pre internet days, (late 80’s)I know that any one under about 35 can believe that there was a world pre internet, but there was and seeing street walkers was actually really common at night

Tumbleweed.....

I've never paid for sex for two reasons:

• The ethical issues regarding how the sex trade generally functions, the trafficking, exploitation and manipulation that is almost always involved to some extent

• Emotional closeness, connection and mutual desire is important for me sexually, and if I am paying a partner to have sex with me that is obviously not there

I'm not opposed to paying for sex theoretically speaking - if there could be a guarantee that the process would be exploitation-free and the person has freely decided to sell sex, then I have no objections to the principle. But this is so rarely the case that I think less of men who pay for sex, as they are willing to ignore this kind of exploitation or at best remain in denial about it.

(I have a similar attitude to cocaine use - not opposed in theory, but the exploitation and misery of those in the supply chain means I cannot respect anybody who uses cocaine)

Oh, I've just seen I've not actually answered your question. TBH as @ComtesseDeSpair says, there is pretty much zero chance of a male Mumsnet user (1) having paid for sex in the first place, given the profile of the average male user of this site, and (2) being willing to admit it.

For what it's worth, the last National Sex Survey in 2010 (conducted by good quality researchers) showed that 13% of men had paid for sex at some point in the past. So, at least that proportion were fine with entering the details in a laptop during an interview.

I used to work for a big company in Soho. On leaving the office late-ish the place was awash with prostitutes. On commenting to a colleague once 'but who are all these men who buy sex?' , she laughed and replied 'well a lot of the 'nice married middle class' men we work with for a start'.

I was so shocked but apparently it was pretty mainstream (as was coke taking). Totally grim.

Never have or would but only in the later years did I thrash out a rationale for why I couldn't, and it goes like this:

I cannot know, or trust, the reason why the woman is doing it. It's technically possible (although massively unlikely) that her decision to offer the service is done free of financial necessity or abusive coercion, but I cannot KNOW that for sure. Therefore to me it would always qualify as a 'theoretical rape' if that makes sense? The possibility of it being consent out of necessity is just to high.

I know that there's a poster here, NotTheFordType I think?, who has worked as a sex worker and seemed to genuinely be fine with it and hold nothing against her clients, but I don't see how I could be sure enough of that being the case for it to be ok? Some might be fine with it, but for all I know behind all the smiles and assurances they could be suffering the worst self loathing inside - I cannot know.

All that aside, the last time I was propositioned by a sex worker and politely declined, she looked me and up and down and then said "Really?" in what seemed to be genuine surprise. That wasn't my most uplifting woman.

@bunglebells
I think you will have more luck raising the Titanic then getting a male user of this forum to admit to paying for sex.

You might as well ask which women have paid for any kind of sexual experience, at least you might get some replies

Uplifting moment, not woman! Sorry..

It's very VERY common and in certain circles in london it is as normal as ordering a takeaway. I have friends in canary wharf, Male, who pay for sex in the same way they pay for coke. Its entertainment without hassle apparently and they can order women with a simple phone call. These guys have money and they display no shame in their actions whatsoever.

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@bunglebells
I think you will have more luck raising the Titanic then getting a male user of this forum to admit to paying for sex.

You might as well ask which women have paid for any kind of sexual experience, at least you might get some replies[/quote]
I know. They can name change though!

Men talked about porn and strippers openly and a pile on was about obvious risk of that here, I suppose this is perhaps another level?

I'm not looking for confessions and subsequent pile on/bashing. I am not pro "sex work" whatsoever, but am not looking to particularly discuss that here. I am deeply interested - as per the other two discussions - on feelings now about something they may have done in the past.

Also, I don't believe there's no men here that have. And certainly they'll be men whose friends have, and might have some insight into attitudes and whether these things can be circumstantial/curiosity and not pathological. And I mean that you men may have friends that have or "friends".... as in "asking for a....friend, friends"

@Sonaftersonafterson

It's very VERY common and in certain circles in london it is as normal as ordering a takeaway. I have friends in canary wharf, Male, who pay for sex in the same way they pay for coke. Its entertainment without hassle apparently and they can order women with a simple phone call. These guys have money and they display no shame in their actions whatsoever.

Yes. I wonder if it's circles. And money. For some.

Obviously for some it's pathological, but I understand that in some industries it's almost the norm? Does this say someone about the men as individuals, or are they products of their culture.

As in, would a decent man ever do this, if working in Canary Wharf and exposed to it as the norm? Or are those men a certain type that are attracted to the whole thing.... the coke, the type of work, and sex work. So, maybe high T, high risk, types??

I find it interesting that we are all now told to accept that sex work is a choice (SWIW and all that), and there is no shaming allowed for women (mostly, but presumably some men) who "choose" to be escorts, or do cam work, or have onlyfans sites or whatever, but at the same time nobody is willing to admit that they pay for this work.

I don't understand how it can be "empowering" for women to do this work, while remaining shameful for men to pay for it .

I have never met a man who has admitted to paying for any form of sex, though I presume some of them must have.

@bunglebells
I think “viewing” sex or nudity is largely normalised in our society now ( rightly or wrongly), just look at mainstream TV, Outlander, Game of Thrones etc, but I think paying for sex, or a sexual service is still so taboo that most people would never admit to it

As in, would a decent man ever do this, if working in Canary Wharf and exposed to it as the norm? Or are those men a certain type that are attracted to the whole thing.... the coke, the type of work, and sex work. So, maybe high T, high risk, types??

For young people trying to make their way up in the business world somewhere like Canary Wharf (and other major UK cities), there can be very much a cultural element to it.

Your whole profile is as much about what you do outside of work, and it must be very hard to be the one person not going along with things like cocaine and sex workers, if all of your colleagues are doing it and you want to move up in the business.

So whilst I do think it's probably led by a "certain type" of person, it's also a culture that can be very hard for average decent people to stay out of, especially if they are young, impressionable and maybe a bit naive.

Never paid for sex, it never even crossed my mind even when going through fallow periods of singledom. In past when I have been single, I have joined a swinging/contacts site and met like minded people who are consenting adults with whom you can form a FWB type arrangement with.

Clearly there is a huge market out there for sex work and plenty of men support that. For me though, several factors are at play that make it a no no, including supporting criminal gangs and people trafficking, the financial cost, risk of STIs, I just don't find paid sex/strippers a turn on.

It's all online now and unfortunately rife with it only getting worse (all the sex work is real work libfem nonsense).

Sex Work is real work. Nice one telling sex workers that their work isn't work.