MEN of MN. The last of 3 personal questions.

[bunglebells]

So, we've done the first two controversial subjects. I started these partially out of self-interest but also as I often read threads where assumptions are made. I though it would be useful to hear things from men. First thread was popular, second not so much.

The first thread I thought proved that SOME MEN DO NOT WATCH PORN. So maybe some women who say this about their partners should be believed. Granted, probably more men do, or lie, or minimise etc. But some simply do not.

Anyway. Last of three. PAYING FOR SEX. Again, hundreds of threads debating this or discussing the devastation caused by it in a relationship. The aim of this thread if it does get any replies is not that. I am interested, not in why someone never would. Not in why someone is a regular punter and thinks it's okay.

I am interested in if any men of Mumsnet... have done and wouldn't now/ever again.

Is doing it once/ever an indication of deeply held attitudes to women that will never change. Or, as seems to be the case often, have you done this when younger, more foolish, drunk, in Amsterdam (etc.), on a stag night, in curiosity. And yet, you would never do it now for whatever reason. Is it something that can mean nothing (for the man) in terms of future behaviours. I would not for a minute claim it means nothing from a feminist/women's perspective, just trying to keep the thread from veering towards absolute ethics, and more about past versus present versus future actions and behaviour.

Discuss? 😎

@DerAlteMann

One thing I have noticed is that paying for sex is no longer something men keep quiet about. When I was in my 20s (in the 1970s) no bloke would ever have admitted to paying for sex. It marked you out as a major loser. Guys who regarded themselves as "ladies men" (aka "players") would proudly state that they had never had to pay for a shag. Now it seems that part of any stag-night or lads weekend away involves boasting about how many professionals you've given work to. Odd. BTW I've never paid for sex and have no plans to start doing so.

I think this is an interesting point and I think part of it is the internet and a sort of acknowledgement of the effort it takes to be a "lothario". I have a friend that I've known literally since primary school. In our early 20s, he got into the pickup artist scene to the point that he even did some coaching in hi late 20s/early 30s. He's had a lot of sexual partners and some outright fantasy scenarios for most men (3 "girlfriends" who were all aware of eachother at one point). The truth of it is that he spent dedicated hours, multiple times a week trying to get into situations where he interacted with women. Obviously this involves a lot of discomfort, a lot of rejection and just takes up a lot of time. He's had a girlfriend for years at this point, mainly because the level of effort was too much to sustain. It's not a lifestyle for everybody. For a man who craves a lot of sexual novelty but are not naturally gifted/famous or prepared to put in the hours, a transactional relationship is seen as a reasonable compromise rather than personal failing these days.

Never have, never would. I’m not going to be able to help with your specific questions.

I agree with others that this is not a site you’ll find men who pay for sex, and the tiny number who may be here would never admit it. They are very likely to believe they’ll be torn to shreds.

OP you present deep questions which I expect even the punters themselves would find hard to answer.
A man once told me that he visited prostitutes during a three year period in his marriage which coincided with his wife's menopause. So I would guess this also coincided with him coming to terms with approaching a mid-life/older age stage in his life.
He didn't visit prostitutes before this period in his marriage and he didn't visit prostitutes after this period in his marriage. Just this three year blip. So you could infer that this man's behaviour is not indicative of deeply-held beliefs about women. I would infer it was something he felt he was missing out on and wanted to do before he died? Perhaps something he felt he was entitled to because of peer pressure, media images and so on.
The behaviour in this case must surely be related to his own shortcomings/lack of self-esteem/FOMO rather than being related to how he views women?
I would argue that this displays a lack of emotional maturity because he does not factor in the female perspective in his choices - not from the perspective of the prostitute nor from the perspective of his wife.

@BillMasen

Never have, never would. I’m not going to be able to help with your specific questions.

I agree with others that this is not a site you’ll find men who pay for sex, and the tiny number who may be here would never admit it. They are very likely to believe they’ll be torn to shreds.

I know. There just be one at least on here. What if we promise not to flame. Just listen? And just name change... then change back! 😒

@Themummilly

OP you present deep questions which I expect even the punters themselves would find hard to answer. A man once told me that he visited prostitutes during a three year period in his marriage which coincided with his wife's menopause. So I would guess this also coincided with him coming to terms with approaching a mid-life/older age stage in his life. He didn't visit prostitutes before this period in his marriage and he didn't visit prostitutes after this period in his marriage. Just this three year blip. So you could infer that this man's behaviour is not indicative of deeply-held beliefs about women. I would infer it was something he felt he was missing out on and wanted to do before he died? Perhaps something he felt he was entitled to because of peer pressure, media images and so on. The behaviour in this case must surely be related to his own shortcomings/lack of self-esteem/FOMO rather than being related to how he views women? I would argue that this displays a lack of emotional maturity because he does not factor in the female perspective in his choices - not from the perspective of the prostitute nor from the perspective of his wife.

That's a bit sad. Assume she never knew.

Weird it was just then. Not before or after. And just when she probably needed support and love. Awful really. But interesting I that it was a discrete/discreet thing!!!

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@bunglebells
I think “viewing” sex or nudity is largely normalised in our society now ( rightly or wrongly), just look at mainstream TV, Outlander, Game of Thrones etc, but I think paying for sex, or a sexual service is still so taboo that most people would never admit to it[/quote]
Do you think it's taboo in a way that porn isn't? Between men? Is it the paying element or the contact?

What about camming etc!? Would this be considered just posh porn, or would most men view it as virtual prostitution. Is it something do you think men would admit to?

I mean there's a whole range of research projects just waiting to be carried out on this subject, OP. Sociology departments are probably getting their teeth into these sorts of questions as we speak (type).
Those who point out the change in attitude between the 1970s and now are spot-on. I'm old enough to remember the 1970s attitude and the shift has been incredible. It seems that we are sprinting towards a sea-change where prostitution is just another part of everyday life, like ordering a takeaway pizza. I am both horrified and fascinated in equal measure. Horrified because this is raising the patriarchy and diminishing the feminine simultaneously. Fascinated because (like you) there are so many questions surrounding this that reach into so many different aspects of the human condition.
If you wanted to be brave, you could read UK Punting. But it's a Pandora's box and you would need to steel yourself.

My ex son in law started working late all of a sudden. This coincided with the bath time/bed time of his young family.

Eighteen months later it turned out that instead of helping with his children, he was seeing prostitutes. His favourite time of day to visit was 5pm.

It turns out he's been paying for sex all his adult life.

We wondered why he never had any money. 🤔

I’ll give a slightly different answer here. I’ve never paid for sex up to now and it never crossed my mind to do so. But to be honest it has lately.

Back story is that my wife died a year and a half ago after a long illness. I have been having what I thought was a casual relationship with a woman for a while and it’s been great, just what I needed and her too I thought, we had fun, the sex was great. She is divorced after a bad marriage.

Except last week she dropped the “L” bomb on me despite me constantly saying I’m not looking for anything serious. So I’m going to have to stop seeing her now, just working out how I do it to avoid hurting her as much as possible.

So no strings sex without the emotion is what I currently want, paying for it might be a solution so no one else gets hurt.

Not me but my mate (yes yes I know but really my mate ) who has Crohns disease , ptsd and is generall a bit socially inept and clumsy . I think he's stopped now as getting older but he would have a regular session with an escort / sex worker who was a mumsy mid fifties woman who would visit him once she'd got to know him . His Crohns would sometimes cause problems but generally it was for him a sress relief and safe experience and cost about £120 for a couple of hours .

And for me personally, no never paid for it , considered it once or twice in my very horny twenties ..remember the small ads in the back.of local free papers ? I lived near Brighton so there were a lot of escorts advertising their services, but never actually went ahead with it out of cowardice ...fear of disease and humiliation as much as anything else .

@Slackbladder22

I’ll give a slightly different answer here. I’ve never paid for sex up to now and it never crossed my mind to do so. But to be honest it has lately.

Back story is that my wife died a year and a half ago after a long illness. I have been having what I thought was a casual relationship with a woman for a while and it’s been great, just what I needed and her too I thought, we had fun, the sex was great. She is divorced after a bad marriage.

Except last week she dropped the “L” bomb on me despite me constantly saying I’m not looking for anything serious. So I’m going to have to stop seeing her now, just working out how I do it to avoid hurting her as much as possible.

So no strings sex without the emotion is what I currently want, paying for it might be a solution so no one else gets hurt.

I would tell her the truth.

Sex without emotion is pointless. You can get better results DIY.

Therein lies the difference between men and women I guess.

@Slackbladder22

I’ll give a slightly different answer here. I’ve never paid for sex up to now and it never crossed my mind to do so. But to be honest it has lately.

Back story is that my wife died a year and a half ago after a long illness. I have been having what I thought was a casual relationship with a woman for a while and it’s been great, just what I needed and her too I thought, we had fun, the sex was great. She is divorced after a bad marriage.

Except last week she dropped the “L” bomb on me despite me constantly saying I’m not looking for anything serious. So I’m going to have to stop seeing her now, just working out how I do it to avoid hurting her as much as possible.

So no strings sex without the emotion is what I currently want, paying for it might be a solution so no one else gets hurt.

Brave and honest. Am very sorry about your wife.

Just a question as to whether you've considered a longer term personal impact. If you do use sex workers, and then meet someone else in the future. You then are a man that has paid for sex. You could lie if asked (she may well not be that bothered or appreciate your honesty and reasoning), but she may well be very anti (I think this is the majority of women in my own experience), and see it as something of a red flag, despite your obviously sad (and pragmatic I suppose) situation.

Would this put you off? Would you consider it not worth mentioning or not important? Does that make sense?

@ginandbearit

Not me but my mate (yes yes I know but really my mate ) who has Crohns disease , ptsd and is generall a bit socially inept and clumsy . I think he's stopped now as getting older but he would have a regular session with an escort / sex worker who was a mumsy mid fifties woman who would visit him once she'd got to know him . His Crohns would sometimes cause problems but generally it was for him a sress relief and safe experience and cost about £120 for a couple of hours .

I'm impressed with a couple of hours. Fair play.

Joking aside, difficult isn't it as many bring up these types of men when we talk of sex buyers. Do they have a right to buy sex? Is it different somehow. Anyway, that's not the point of this, but interesting all the same. I suppose it doesn't point to him being an entitled misogynist as much as a rather lonely character.

@MyOtherCarIsAPorsche

My ex son in law started working late all of a sudden. This coincided with the bath time/bed time of his young family.

Eighteen months later it turned out that instead of helping with his children, he was seeing prostitutes. His favourite time of day to visit was 5pm.

It turns out he's been paying for sex all his adult life.

We wondered why he never had any money. 🤔

That's really grim and awful. You see, how can he justify that. That's conscience-less? Poor woman.

We are getting closer. We have mens' friends that do/have, and men on here that have or are toying with the idea.

Getting Warmer...

@Themummilly

I mean there's a whole range of research projects just waiting to be carried out on this subject, OP. Sociology departments are probably getting their teeth into these sorts of questions as we speak (type). Those who point out the change in attitude between the 1970s and now are spot-on. I'm old enough to remember the 1970s attitude and the shift has been incredible. It seems that we are sprinting towards a sea-change where prostitution is just another part of everyday life, like ordering a takeaway pizza. I am both horrified and fascinated in equal measure. Horrified because this is raising the patriarchy and diminishing the feminine simultaneously. Fascinated because (like you) there are so many questions surrounding this that reach into so many different aspects of the human condition. If you wanted to be brave, you could read UK Punting. But it's a Pandora's box and you would need to steel yourself.

I've looked once. That was enough.

It is fascinating. In terms of assumptions. I would assume that it meant something about attitudes to women. But I wonder if, as per the previous thread last week, it's about attitudes to sex. I know it's a subtle difference if heterosexual but it is an important one perhaps?

If a man is gay is his (in some instances) attitude to sex/men similar to what we would consider objectionable if he was heterosexual.

I obviously have thought about this previously, but a poster on my thread last week made me think some more about this, in terms of whether porn, stripping, sex work is necessarily about misogyny/sexism.

Definitely a difference between men and women or maybe just different people. Sex without emotion is different, with emotion is definitely better, but without is still lots of fun!

@bunglebells yes that is a concern. Would I have to lie about it in future? I defo would like to be in love again and if this is deal breaker for someone then it’s an issue. Anyway not something I’m considering imminently, just a few of my thoughts.

I know the Mn mantra is no one has a right to sex, but for many men like my mate Mick , finding a relationship which included sex has been almost impossible...as an older man he is not of the incel type or generation and has always been fairly philosophical about his lack of attractiveness to women . I dunno ..its a difficult one , as I can see the threat that sex workers can appear to pose to womens' status and role within a patriarchal society...but also does 'my body my choice ' not extend to sex for money ? I know that debate has been thrashed out here and on FWR many times .

Could you link to your other threads please? Cant seem to find them.

bunglebells I got deleted for commenting once about the openess of gay men to multiple sexual partners , well before AIDS anyway and the bath house scene , which seemed to sum up an extreme expression of male sexuality....I know not all gay men were involved in that scene but at one time I sort of envied the easy acceptance and availability of consensual casual sex these guys had .

@ginandbearit

bunglebells I got deleted for commenting once about the openess of gay men to multiple sexual partners , well before AIDS anyway and the bath house scene , which seemed to sum up an extreme expression of male sexuality....I know not all gay men were involved in that scene but at one time I sort of envied the easy acceptance and availability of consensual casual sex these guys had .

My close gay male friends aren't that open. But a comment from a straight man last week about his experiences in gay company/beach etc was interesting. It's obvious people Of all sexes differ in attitude, but as a general point... we wouldn't accuse a gay man using sex workers or gay porn as misogynist. He may be uninterested in deeper ethics or whatever. Doesn't mean he hates men.

And I say that as a fairly radical old school feminist.

@ginandbearit

I know the Mn mantra is no one has a right to sex, but for many men like my mate Mick , finding a relationship which included sex has been almost impossible...as an older man he is not of the incel type or generation and has always been fairly philosophical about his lack of attractiveness to women . I dunno ..its a difficult one , as I can see the threat that sex workers can appear to pose to womens' status and role within a patriarchal society...but also does 'my body my choice ' not extend to sex for money ? I know that debate has been thrashed out here and on FWR many times . Could you link to your other threads please? Cant seem to find them.

How do I link?

@ginandbearit

I know the Mn mantra is no one has a right to sex, but for many men like my mate Mick , finding a relationship which included sex has been almost impossible...as an older man he is not of the incel type or generation and has always been fairly philosophical about his lack of attractiveness to women . I dunno ..its a difficult one , as I can see the threat that sex workers can appear to pose to womens' status and role within a patriarchal society...but also does 'my body my choice ' not extend to sex for money ? I know that debate has been thrashed out here and on FWR many times . Could you link to your other threads please? Cant seem to find them.

My mate Mick?

[quote Slackbladder22]@bunglebells yes that is a concern. Would I have to lie about it in future? I defo would like to be in love again and if this is deal breaker for someone then it’s an issue. Anyway not something I’m considering imminently, just a few of my thoughts.[/quote]
Not giving you hard time but you'd either have to lie - not good if she did want to know. And you would know you'd lied.

Or be honest, and I think if you read many threads on here on the subject, it's a big fat no from most women. Food for thought perhaps. I've always thought that. As soon as that man walks through the door on the stag night etc then he becomes a man that's paid for sex. I know you could say this about any action we take in life the first time we do it, but I suspect this has the potential to have deeper vibrations than might immediately spring to mind!