The pick me dance

[DressingPafe]

I have read literally dozens of threads on here about infidelity and many posts mention, “don’t do the pick me dance”. I do sort of understand why. It allows you to retain your dignity. It puts you in a stronger position etc. I can see all the arguments for it. I don’t necessarily need any convincing on it. But equally, is it always the best advice?

The one person I was close to, who was cheated on badly (it was her so called best friend), established relationship, multiple DC etc. She cried and begged him not to leave her. Apparently at one point threw herself to the floor and held his legs to stop him leaving! At the time, I was a bit, wtf! Have some self respect woman. But he did stay with her. It’s now 20 years on from the affair. They’re happy and, as far as I am aware, he hasn’t cheated on her again. Had she followed MN advice he’d have been off living with the other woman and she’d have been devastated.

I know in an ideal world the scorned woman would end up either with a man who treated her much better or would be embracing a single life. But that doesn’t always happen. Sometimes women do never get over it. I personally couldn’t stay with a cheater, as I’d never know another days peace because I just wouldn’t trust them. But is that advice right for absolutely everyone? I’m not sure.

I honestly think from reading here that people misunderstand what those in affair psychology/affair recovery mean by don’t do the ‘pick me dance’, it is not simply LTB and walk away. It’s don’t engage in the drama which will continue leading to abuse of the betrayed.

Not doing the ‘pick me dance’ saved my marriage, it forced my husband to pull his head out of his a*.

When I discovered my ex was cheating, he begged and begged me to reconsider dumping him. Even texted me a week later point black asking me if there was really no chance I'd have him back before he started officially dating the other woman.

I always laugh when I think of that silly woman. They're still together now but imagine the humiliation of literally being second best and only chosen because I dumped him. I'm sure he spun her some yarn and made her think he'd left me for her, but I know the truth.

Mine did pretty much the same.

He told me in the end that he was going to "make a go of it" with her because he wanted to make the "best of a bad situation".

They are also still together but she has no idea he begged me for months to give it another go and ended up in therapy to help him come to terms with the situation.

Probably not the win she thought it was...

Agree with other posters. He stayed because he wanted to, for whatever reason it was.
The ‘pick me’ dance, whilst understandable in the initial panic and fear of loss, erodes self esteem, makes you angry with yourself later down the line that you did it, makes him respect you even less, and ultimately doesn’t work. Would anyone feel secure that their errant spouse stayed because the puck me dance ‘worked’ or forever wonder if the begging and pleading made them stay out of guilt?
I understand why it happens, but calm ultimatums and huge kicks up the arse are a far better reality check than that. ‘Pick me’ feeds the pleasure the ego receives from triangle, cheating spouse enjoying being at the top of the triangle watching two women/ men (depending on the relationship) jumping up and down below trying to ‘win’ them. Pure gold for the ego and practically a guarantee that the triangle will stay put.
Pick Me is a totally understandable response initially in the shock of it all, but it achieves nothing positive.

Puck me or pick me, whatever you want... typo attack.

I had never considered the OW doing the pick me dance.
My DH had a brief EA with a very ancient ex last year. Nothing came of it because I noticed the change in his behaviour straight away. He had told me he was reconnecting with her via social media and at the time I didn’t think it would do any harm. However it reignited “ feelings”.
Fast forward and DH deeply regrets the whole situation because OW/ex has spent the last 12 mnths trying to regain his attention. It’s all been via social media. Her last attempt was to travel to the other side of the country for an overnight stay in a place that obviously held memories for them. Who the hell goes to Great Yarmouth for a night midweek in the middle of November?
I, on the other hand, told him he was free to leave if he no longer wanted to be with me. He is still here so I assume that he’s made a choice.
It has been a difficult time but recent events have made the whole EA so insignificant in the scheme of things. I have resisted the urge to share my “wonderful “ marriage in sm but have shared our recent situation so maybe she will back off back under her stone.

I see what you mean really...

I know a couple where the husband was having a flirtation (possibly an EA) at work, had gone through a bereavement and both he and his wife had some significant MH problems. Anyway, they sensibly went to counselling and during one session they decided he should move out to a hotel for a week or so to clear his head. He had attempted suicide etc and they had small dcs in the house. Anyway, I honestly think think wife had been on Mumsnet as, no sooner had he left than she had changed the locks and told him he wasn't welcome back again. She then said he'd left her and the children for another woman, which wasn't actually what happened. They are divorced. He isn't with the flirty woman at work. He's single and the wife has now moved on. Tbh, they had a toxic relationship and it's a good thing they aren't together, but I know the couple well and I do think things got very Mumsnet. It was the assumption he wanted to move in with the OW etc, when I think he honestly just was very unhappy (as was the wife) and the thing at work, the suicide attempt etc etc were all symptoms of this unhappiness.

Also, not everyone thinks affairs are unforgiveable or the worst thing anyone can do in a relationship. So it depends on the couple really and I do think it's more nuanced than The Script etc. Mumsnet is not real life and the relationships board can be a little extreme sometimes.

Actually, thinking about that couple, I think he might be gay and struggling with coming to terms with it. I know him quite well and he's been dropping hints lately that he is interested in guys. He hasn't dated any guys yet though.

It's not always cherchez la femme!

Deciding to stay and forgive or at least try to move past it, after an affair isn't doing the pick me dance.

@RachelTheRedNosedReindeer

Actually, thinking about that couple, I think he might be gay and struggling with coming to terms with it. I know him quite well and he's been dropping hints lately that he is interested in guys. He hasn't dated any guys yet though.

It's not always cherchez la femme!

It is here, though, isn't it? He's admitted it. These men seem to follow a script. Cheat or have their head turned and then act like utter bellends so when their wives eventually get sick of their shit, they can run off to the other woman complaining about how horrible wife was and absolve themselves of any guilty feelings.

It's uncanny how they all do exactly the same shit.

Yes, in the op, the husband had cheated clearly. The advice on here would definitely have been to kick him out or you have no self respect etc. Possibly very true. But you don't know the ins and outs of relationships on here is my point.

Re my friends for example, if the wife posted on here saying "he's been having an ea at work and now he's gone to stay in a hotel for a week", everyone would say "he's gone to shack up with her. Don't do the pick me dance! Don't let him back etc". But she'd have missed out the suicide attempt, their mh issues and the fact they'd agreed together at counselling that he should move out temporarily. Because everyone on here "knows" the script and "knows" men are all the same, they may sometimes be giving bogus advice and it's rarely done gently or with any room for argument.

I also BTW know a couple who both had affairs but they turned a blind eye and seemed fine with it. They stayed together till the wife died. The husband was devastated. He adored her, it was obvious. When he doing evidence of her affairs just after she died, he just laughed. If either of them had posted on here, they would have been told to get rid. They're no good blah blah. It isn't always the end or even a big deal for every couple. You rarely see people saying that on here, but I know it to be true of a few couples irl.

Found evidence *

@RachelTheRedNosedReindeer your posts aren't really making sense.

In the first situation, you have no idea how it would have played out if they split straight away. And also, they could also achieve that without one doing the 'pick me dance'.

Advice about not doing the pick me dance, isn't really relevant to staying or not.

The second situation - why would she post if she was having an affair, herself, and didn't mind her husband having affair.

But, if someone posted that both of them had OM/OW, but neither minded, I would guess very few to no posters would tell her to leave him. People post all sorts of different relationship set ups all the time.

Again, doesn't appear that woman did the pick me dance and its not relevant.

No, I suppose there was no pick me dance in either of those situations.

I think my point is a more general one about the relationships board. The op said she wonders if the pick me dance (or begging him to stay) was such a bad thing as they're happy now and still together. I don't know the ins and outs of that particular situation, but I agree that she would have been strongly advised not to do that on this board. If she had followed that advice, she may have been unhappy.

I was giving examples of couples I know who, if they happened to post on here, would have been strongly advised to leave, because "we all know - this IS how it is - no argument". When i know that isn't true.

So my point is that this board can be extremely helpful but sometimes extremely dubious. Because we don't know the ins and outs of the relationships. I know that's to be expected. It's the nature of the forum. But I do think that people posting here do need to remember that this site isn't full of relationships counsellors or experts. People posting in response on here are doing it to make conversation or to share their experience or just because they're bored and in need of something to occupy them. That can be useful. But it doesn't mean you have to listen to the LTB mob when they get going. Sometimes, I'm in total agreement with them - I don't wish to be disparaging -, but they aren't always right. It can get very my way or the highway on here from people who "know".

Is that a bit clearer? Genuine question! I can get quite wordy and it doesn't always translate well into text

While I wouldn’t advocate staying in a marriage where the DH has lost all interest in and respect for you long term, sometimes it can be counterproductive to focus on keeping your dignity over saving your marriage. What if he had the affair because he thought you’d lost interest in him?
This is your marriage, not the teen disco where you have to be cool and play hard to get. If you want him, fight for him. If he still leaves you haven’t lost your dignity. You fought for what you wanted, it didn’t work out, you were bruised but you’ll never have any regrets. Regrets are the pits and will stop you moving forward.

So yes I see what you mean.

I do agree that some posters can be my way or the highway.

But I still think 'don't do the pick me dance' would have been right advice in these situations.

In the ops situation, he stayed because she grovelled his feet and begged. Not because he wanted to? I think people can stay together successfully after cheating. But the person will stay or they won't. Begging won't change that, creates more drama and just damages the person doing the begging. And who wants to be in a relationship with someone because they begged them to? And want if that person did really want to leave but feels they can't because of guilt? It's likely he would have stayed anyway.

In your first situation, doing the pick me dance would still have been right. But that doesn't automatically mean leave straight away. Thats 2 separate pieces of advice.

In your 2nd example, the only time a pick me dance would have been mentioned is if she was hurt by his cheating and was going to try and compete with the OW. Which she wasn't. I, genuinely, can't imagine anyone saying leave the bastard if she was happy in an open relationship with her husband. And given they were both cheating, if he was a bastard that should be left so was she.

People may say they couldn't live like taht and would prefer to leave rather than both sleeping with other people all the time. But that's nor the same as someone saying that woman should leave.

Hopefully you're right re the second one...but I can't help but imagine "you don't know your own mind because you must have low self esteem" posts.

Re the first, they would probably have said "he's cheating and away to shack up with the OW". That is what the exw said too! It was not true and I don't actually think this guy is interested in women at all. He got a lot of stick for "leaving his wife and kids for a younger woman from work" because that was the assumption. Because "everyone knows the script". He had already attempted suicide and he went on to attempt suicide several times after. So, I don't agree with you that the advice given on here (all hypothetical obviously, although maybe she did post on here...I don't know obviously) on that situation would have been right. I actually think it could have been quite damaging.

He's the cheater, if he wants to stay with your friend he should be the one begging for forgiveness. It's as much about respect as anything else, she should have more respect for herself and honestly I'd feel like shit if I thought my husband had only stayed with me out of pity or because I'd begged him to. But also agree with others, her DH probably didn't stay with her because of that anyway, if he'd really want the OW he would have left, your friend made it fine and easy for him to get away with being a cheating cunt though

I suppose that's what I'm getting at. The advice is kind of "one size fits all", when relationships are very complex. One person may feel their dignity is the most important thing, while another (as someone mentions above) may feel happier having "fought" for the relationship, regardless of the outcome.

When me and my ex split up, he'd been emotionally abusive more or less throughout, I ranted and raved at him in a way that would have been seen as most undignified on MN! Do I regret that? Not at all. It needed saying. From my perspective it was better let out than me holding it all in. I frankly couldn't give any fucks as to what he thought of me afterwards. I also believe I healed faster having been able to say what I wanted.

I think the problem is if you beg someone to stay, it changes the power balance for ever. If someone is with you because they don't think you can cope without them, or because they feel too guilty about your reaction to leave....I just don't see how that can be a healthy relationship. The person who has begged will always be feeling like they've got to stay on their best behaviour so they don't get left again. People should be together because they want to be, not because they feel other emotions such as guilt or obligation.

I did beg him to come back a few days after he moved out but that was before I discovered he was seeing my friend who lived next door to me. I would certainly never do the pick me dance now, he’s proved how utterly disrespectful he is and the two of them are actually extremely well suited no morals whatsoever.

So, I don't agree with you that the advice given on here (all hypothetical obviously, although maybe she did post on here...I don't know obviously) on that situation would have been right. I actually think it could have been quite damaging.

I guess I don't see how not doing the pick me dance or that woman leaving would have definitely led to a worse outcome. Had she done the dance and he did actually want to leave, he would have left. Or stated through guilt. Either of those situations could have impacted their mental health far more. Staying may have prolonged the issues that would have been resolved earlier. We just don't know. But I can't fathom how trying to beg, persuade, guilt someone into staying would definitely improve a situation.

One person may feel their dignity is the most important thing, while another (as someone mentions above) may feel happier having "fought" for the relationship, regardless of the outcome.

I agree, to a point. After affairs trauma bonding is real thing. When the dust settles, realising this person stayed only because you begged at their feet, not because they wanted to is nor a good basis for a relationship.

If they leave anyway, that realisation that you changed your behaviour, changed everything about yourself, had sex when you didn't want to etc (pick me dance isn't just begging) and they still picked someone else, will impact you in the future.

Also, from the other side. You want to leave a marriage but when you try, that person does everything they can to stop you and even begs at your feet.....then you feel you can't leave.

So one person is there our of guilt. The other person only kept their partner by guiltily them into staying...How's that ever going to be healthy?

I guess I don't see how not doing the pick me dance or that woman leaving would have definitely led to a worse outcome. Had she done the dance and he did actually want to leave, he would have left. Or stated through guilt. Either of those situations could have impacted their mental health far more. Staying may have prolonged the issues that would have been resolved earlier. We just don't know. But I can't fathom how trying to beg, persuade, guilt someone into staying would definitely improve a situation

No, that's not at all my point! I'm obviously having some sort of communication fail with you.

I'll try again; this friend of mine should not have done the pick me dance. But she did not need to go off on one saying that her husband had left her and her small children for a younger model, when that was not what happened. There was no pick me dance because he was not interested in the woman at the office. I think he just saw flirting with her as a catalyst to get out of his unhappy marriage.

"Don't do the pick me dance" is just one piece of common advice trotted out on here, so I am making a general point about people who ironically stick to their own "script" on the relationships board (namely, he has shacked up with the OW. Don't let him back. Get angry". I honestly did wonder if she had been on here after agreeing her husband should move out for a bit to allow things to simmer down a bit, because she went from trying to support him, to telling everyone he had moved in with the Ow (he hadn't) and changing the locks. All advice I see on here a lot from people who believe they know exactly what is going on in every relationship.

Anyway, as I said, it's a good thing they aren't together anymore and she has moved on and is happy. It is also a good thing her ex did not actually die by suicide as he very nearly did after everyone took the exw's side because she had convinced herself that he had gone off with an OW. Which he hadn't.

I'm sure she wouldn't have been thrilled that they split regardless of whether there was an OW. But certainly that idea made her very angry with him, when I think they otherwise may have managed a less drama ridden split.

Basically, I don't think "they're all just the same" is always useful on here, but it is almost always the way those sorts of threads go.

Had she followed MN advice he’d have been off living with the other woman and she’d have been devastated.

@DressingPafe Not necessarily. Part of why he stayed was probably that he thought she was more right for him after all and/or because of their home life, kids etc.

Throwing herself at his feet won'tve been what made him stay obviously, not in and of itself. If he'd really wanted to leave he could just have stepped out and left the building.

If she'd been less pathetic they might have an even better relationship now.