How to get over being so staggeringly wrong about somebody?

[Darkestdays]

The full back story is on a previous thread but a brief summary is that I was happily married with a toddler and pregnant with our second when I found out my husband was fired for sexual misconduct, which involves him cheating on me with 10+ women that I'm aware of at the moment, probably more. I left him and instigated divorce proceedings. He has been volatile and aggressive and he is someone I always considered a brilliant dad. I really, genuinely believed I had chosen a great dad for my kids. He has lost all interest in them, once he got bored of trying to use them as a weapon against me. He has only met his newborn a handful of times. He doesn't seem to care, at all.

I'm confident in my decision to leave, I know my worth. I'm just a bit stuck on how did I get it so wrong. How did I get caught so off guard. How could I of been so wrong about someone. I've been thinking for weeks about signs, things I might have missed. I just can't see it. I can't see how any of this is possible. I can't see how he did all of that yet kept up the pretence with me. It's disorienting because I have the proof, and I know it happened, but I don't understand it.

I trusted him, I loved him, I thought I'd chose well. I am relatively young, I'm in my late 20s, I hope I still have time to find a husband again. I don't want to be alone forever, although I'm not interested in anything until my kids are a lot older, and one is a newborn. I don't ask because I want to start dating, but because I want to start healing. How can I ever trust my judgement again? After being so wrong? Does that make sense?

I remember your previous thread. You are doing amazingly well during what is a horrifically traumatic time.
To be quite clear, there is simply NO WAY on Earth you could have know that this was his true character. People like him are absolute experts at concealing their true self. It’s an act they’ve mastered for years. It’s only now, when the mask has slipped and you’ve seen him for what he is (a lying, cheating, selfish, horrible person) that he feels free to show his true nature…and that’s why he’s not engaging with the children.
But the worst thing you can do here is blame yourself, you have been conned by an expert and I would bet my life that not even a professional could have seen through him. You have also been hugely unlucky, the vast majority of people are decent and honest human beings, like you. When you feel ready, get some therapy to help you work through it and move on. Do not let this worthless piece of shit affect your future life because you deserve far, far more. Good luck xx

What was your parents and other family's relationships like growing up as that is how we learn what to expect.

I know that feeling very well. It knocks your confidence massively…how can you ever trust someone again?

I left my version of this 12 years ago, my dc are largely grown up now and I do trust my judgement now, largely because of what happened.

I really do have an excellent radar for spotting these types now, I can do it in minutes. At work, I am known for being able to do this. Friends always check in on new relationships with me, And I’ve not been wrong for a long time on it. It’s hard to explain how I’ve got to this point, it’s many many things.

The first thing that’s important here is what pp have mentioned and what I call ‘the innocence complex’. A lot of us who were duped live in a bit of a ‘everyone is lovely, everyone has potential, see the good in everyone’ type of state and that just isn’t healthy, realistic or helpful. There is a balance to be struck where you are not totally cynical about everyone but you are also aware people can be cruel, nasty and unkind and they may not have potential or want to change, they just are malevolent.

They do give away signs, they are there. You just firstly have to be prepared to see them, as above, but secondly have the confidence in yourself to acknowledge those signs when you do see them. By that I mean, it’s actually really hard to stand up and say “there’s something about that person that I don’t trust”. Usually these people are 95% charming on first impressions, so most people will conform to our natural human state and ‘want to believe they are good’ so will go along with them. But if you’ve seen the 5% leak out, it’s sparked your senses, are you always prepared to say something / do something? It’s very hard to because it’s you who looks like a cynical miserable twat not them.

There have been many occasions in my life where I’ve spoken up about people because I’ve seen a 5% leak behaviour and others have thought I’m completely revolting for saying such things. Unfortunately, time always proves me right and I’ve lost track of the number of times people have come back afterwards and said “you said it years ago”. I find it fascinating now that people always remember my comments years later. I think it must hit them somewhere, they must also know that there is ‘something’

Anyway, long post. But I just wanted to say, you are very right not to trust your judgement at the moment, especially if you can’t work out what signs you missed because I know there will be signs. Do some reading on personality disorders, get to know the patterns of behaviours in cluster b personalities, the dark triads. If you can start to look back and see signs, they may not even by 5% signs more like 1%, then you will be making a start on protecting yourself in the future.

OP, you have done so well. I know the nights must seem long and it’ll feel like the dawn will never come sometimes but you WILL heal from this.

I RARELY label people, but when I read your first thread I really felt your (soon to be ex) husband has some kind of cluster b personality disorder. The level of deception is scary. Your latest post about how he has almost discarded the children is a huge indicator. These people are highly manipulative, able to compartmentalise and morph into whoever they choose to be at the time.

You didn’t stand a chance. But you do now. Your eyes have been opened. You can keep yourself and your children safe by really reading into this and watching for red flags ‘when’ you start dating again.

First, heal and huge congratulations on your baby!

I think @hamstersarse has it spot on.

We assume that they are like us - people who try their best to be kind and caring, people that say sorry and mean it, and deserve forgiveness and second chances, and that are truthful and authentic. They're not. And while it might sound a bit cynical, these days I feel its better to assume that people are not really how they present themselves, and the more charming and wonderful, the more suspicious and the more they need to prove themselves.

Take the good that is in your heart and hold on tight to it. Try as hard as you can to not let this person's behaviour and the terrible things he has done shape the person you become or impact the relationships you form in the future. People do bad things to good people, in fact regularly reading MN makes you realise that a majority of the worst treatment, lying, cheating, nastiness etc comes from within your own family. Its staggering.

You will need to heal from this and it will take time BUT you haven't done anything wrong and there was nothing you could have done, you were deceived on every level and I imagine the reason he is staying away is you and his children are a stark reminder of the shit person he has become. He probably had you in different compartments and the two were very separate. Sometimes even the worst people can't face the damage and hurt they've caused so its easier to just walk away and most likely rewrite thing in their head to justify it i.e you made things to difficult to maintain contact blah blah .
If you want him to play a part in your children's future i would, in time, send him a letter saying regardless of what he has done to you and the family you always believed him to be a good father, you will not take that away from your children so if he is prepared to be there father you will encourage that relationship as it is separate to what has gone on between you two. If he fails to take that offer then you know you have done what you can and he really is one of lifes complete low lifes.
Keep going xxx

@Fidgetty

I can really relate to those feelings. My husband didn't cheat but he was not the father I envisaged he would be at ALL. I was utterly convinced he'd be a great father but he really let me down when my DC was a baby. I struggled to contain my bitterness about it. Berated myself for getting it so wrong, but I didn't get it wrong - he manipulated and deceived me. It's not your fault. A incredibly skilled liar with no conscience will dupe even the most careful and intelligent woman.

Yes, this!

My husband even used to say how he'd helped look after his sister's child when he was a baby by driving round when he wouldn't sleep at night etc. Funnily enough, he never, ever did that with our children or helped to get them to sleep at all. Not even once. Looking back I think it was a deliberate ploy to convince me he'd be a great family man.

Having said that, I do think there were things that I could have seen but didn't know about then, so it wasn't my fault, or yours. For instance, he was too all over me at the beginning. He didn't like being told no, the PP who suggested saying no unexpectedly early in the relationship had an excellent point. He didn't like trying things that I wanted to do, that he didn't, he'd just refuse. But he'd be lovely at other times, so I overlooked it because it didn't seem that big a deal. Until he stopped being so lovely at other times...

Those were my DH's things. Yours were probably different. But if you learn a bit more about how these men operate, you'll probably find out things you could have spotted, if you'd known about them then. For example, how empathic is he about other people? What did he say about other men that had affairs (obviously not a direct question which would put him on his guard, but if you'd asked him in a more subtle way).

@hamstersarse could you give some examples of the 5%? The more we educate ourselves, the less likely these people are to cause havoc in other women's lives.

One thing I would say though is I think men are often less socialised to believe that everyone is good than women, and more socialised to try and fix relationships than men. I think it puts us at more risk than men to this kind of manipulation.

Thank you for the lovely responses and reassurance, and my heart goes out to any of you who have dealt with similar types.

I nearly messaged him last night and I'm very glad I didn't now. I just wanted to have a go at him for forgetting his kids. I wanted to send him photos of his newborn baby so he could realise what he's missing out on. I so vividly remember sitting out in the garden back in March, watching our toddler play and he did something cute and we were both talking about it, got on to the subject of the other cute little things he's done and said and my husband turned and said to me this is what single parents miss out on. Nobody loves your kids and loves talking about them as much as the other parent. I feel bad for people that don't have this.

Those words are just spinning in my head because I'm sure it was genuine. It wasn't a thought that would occur to lie about. He said it and I thought how happy I was to have this family unit. I keep almost thinking what if there's something wrong, like this is an episode of greys anatomy and his personality change can be explained by a brain tumour they magically fix and everything goes back to normal. It's so hard because I just keep doing as you all say, looking for a why, trying to figure out where it went wrong. I just really don't want everything to of been a lie. Unfortunately that's looking like the case. It's all so shit.

A lot of very bright streetwise and intelligent people can be taken in by someone. This has nothing to do with you, you are normal whereas he’s a manipulative liar. You have found out now and thank God you have and you’re still young enough to rebuild a life for yourself without him in it and you will do x

I just really don't want everything to of been a lie.

Everything hasn't been. You weren't. You were honest, and loving, and genuine. You were real and still are. And you are a huge part of this. You're not a little bystander in this con artists life. You are the lead role in yours. And you were real, the whole time.

The lies are all contained with him. They have left with him.

@Pinksloth
The forgetting of important dates OR going OTT about them but not actually being there was one of mine.

I still flip flop between thinking I’m a crazy princess and nope, I have some self respect for ditching a man who forgets my birthday for example.

First birthday together, depending on when it is not celebrating is ok but if you’ve been dating more than 6months seriously and you still can’t be bothered to write down X date and remember to pick up a damn card (or whatever, I’m not a card person) it doesn’t bode well for the rest of the relationship.

The men I’ve dated who have been terrible have all either not bothered or gone super like lovebomb style.

@Darkestdays

Thank you for the lovely responses and reassurance, and my heart goes out to any of you who have dealt with similar types.

I nearly messaged him last night and I'm very glad I didn't now. I just wanted to have a go at him for forgetting his kids. I wanted to send him photos of his newborn baby so he could realise what he's missing out on. I so vividly remember sitting out in the garden back in March, watching our toddler play and he did something cute and we were both talking about it, got on to the subject of the other cute little things he's done and said and my husband turned and said to me this is what single parents miss out on. Nobody loves your kids and loves talking about them as much as the other parent. I feel bad for people that don't have this.

Those words are just spinning in my head because I'm sure it was genuine. It wasn't a thought that would occur to lie about. He said it and I thought how happy I was to have this family unit. I keep almost thinking what if there's something wrong, like this is an episode of greys anatomy and his personality change can be explained by a brain tumour they magically fix and everything goes back to normal. It's so hard because I just keep doing as you all say, looking for a why, trying to figure out where it went wrong. I just really don't want everything to of been a lie. Unfortunately that's looking like the case. It's all so shit.

He was probably genuine in that moment but I've heard it explained that people oscillate - they are one person in one moment and another in another. All states are who they are and they absolutely believe and mean what they are saying but can be the other part of themselves in a different context. Can you get some psychotherapy op? It will help you release blame. Maybe a sex addiction therapist?

I think it’s hard to spot a bad apple and women struggle with this more than men. When I was married, my other half could see things in men that I couldn’t see. My friend got married to what I thought was the perfect man. charming, handsome, attentive, made a gushing speech about how much he loved her at the wedding and all the women there were completely taken in by him. My ex when asked what he made of him “He is bellend and this will end in tears and it won’t be his”. I was annoyed at him. However, he was right. The man was cheating on her within a year, got another one pregnant and got engaged before he had even been found out and whilst he was still married to my friend. Sometimes it’s hard for women to see the bad in the person they love or in people in general. Just accept that it wasn’t you, it was him and he is just a bad person.

I felt this way at one point about my ex who I am almost sure is genuinely a sociopath. Like you I genuinely thought I had picked someone who would be a wonderful husband and father.

Over time I’ve come to realise that he was pretending to be the exact person I was looking for and was very good at wearing this mask, so it’s not crazy that I thought that about him. Friends and family were also fooled by him, nobody was telling me not to marry this man, everyone thought it would be a wonderful happy marriage.

With even more time I can admit that I overlooked some issues that I saw as minor at the time but that were red flags I had simply not been educated to recognise at that point, particularly because society tells us lots of damaging messages about what a good female partner should be and what a good male partner should be eg those movies where the man makes a grand romantic gesture. My ex would do that, at the beginning, he sent me a huge over the top bunch of red roses to work on the anniversary of the day we met etc. Everyone I worked with was jealous but honestly it should have been a red flag, it was a very “look at me and what a wonderful partner I am, you can’t possibly see past this to the controlling partner I am” way of recruiting people in my life to think he was a great guy so I’d struggle more to be believed about what could happen later behind closed doors. My friend was upset because her partner never sent her flowers, but I pointed out that he had just quietly bought and fitted snow tyres to her car because it was due to snow and he wanted her to be safe. I now know that in real life you want the guy who fits snow tyres for you, not the guy who sends showy ostentatious bouquets to the office. I’m trying to forgive myself for not realising that in the first place, however I think lots of women are the same and if my partner was not a sociopath trying to take advantage of it this would have mattered less.

I can also admit with more time that I have some aspects of my personal amity which made me a prime target for someone like him. Other than the general naivety of a young woman in her twenties, he also took advantage of the fact that I tend to lack confidence through previous bullying and mental health problems, and that I have an agreeable, empathetic and compliant type of personality. Again, trying to forgive myself for the naivety and compliance but my personality is what it is and another person could have drawn out my strengths instead of targeting my weaknesses.

Basically don’t beat yourself up too much - most people think they’d never be in a situation like this but some things can happen to anyone or nearly anyone. I remember as a teenager saying I’d never let any man hit me and I’d leave immediately but that isn’t what happened because that’s not how domestic abuse tends to work and it’s not because victims of domestic abuse are stupid people. I have a friend who has an ex in jail for paedophilia, she had a baby with him. She’s an amazing person and also never thought she’d be in that situation. It’s very easy to judge form the outside but I actually believe that the majority of people are simply lucky not to have ended up with a partner like this rather than wiser than me if you see what I mean. I’ve thought a lot about this and I know only a handful of people who I’d say would be able to immediately recognise the first hint of a controlling person and get the hell out of there. I think most people would fall into the same trap I did if it was set for them. Having said that, the people I think wouldn’t tend to be people who are very psychologically healthy, with great boundaries, self esteem and are completely happy being alone their whole lives if they don’t find someone worthy of their time. I was not that person (and I’m still not!) but I’m working on it and I don’t think I’d fall into the same trap a second time.

"I so vividly remember sitting out in the garden back in March, watching our toddler play and he did something cute and we were both talking about it, got on to the subject of the other cute little things he's done and said and my husband turned and said to me this is what single parents miss out on. Nobody loves your kids and loves talking about them as much as the other parent. I feel bad for people that don't have this.

Those words are just spinning in my head because I'm sure it was genuine. It wasn't a thought that would occur to lie about. He said it and I thought how happy I was to have this family unit."

Remember he was cheating at the time he said this to you and knew very well he was jeopardising his marriage. There's a chance he could have been being genuine and totally forgot his double life in that one moment, but there's also a VERY good chance he was manipulating you and laying some future groundwork that no matter what, you would be better as a couple and shouldn't leave him to be a single parent.

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this sort of tangled head fuckery, well done for getting out. X

As others have said you have done nothing wrong. He must have been a master of manipulation and lying none of which is anything to do with you.
Your children are lucky to have a strong and caring Mum. It’s his look out that he is missing out on them growing up.

When you really love someone you don't see the bad in them, or the red flags because you are not looking for them. That is why it is so devastating when something like this happens.
You think they are like you, have the same standards, think the same etc etc but they don't and never did have. They were living a lie, a convenient one and probably would have gone on like that for ever or unless they were caught out.
You deserve so much better and in time you will realise this
If you don't look for it then how were you supposed to know?

@Kyliealwayshadthebestdisco, excellent post. It's often assumed that the "victim" must have issues such as co dependency to fall for a sociopath or similar but I don't believe that's the case. Disordered individuals target accomplished people who are caring/empathic/see the good.

It's been demonstrated to me by my children. All wonderful, smart and attractive but my youngest is instinctively trusting and empathic. The older one has a healthy cynicism that makes them able to jettison unhealthy people. Same values and household growing up but the difference is innate.

Knowledge is key- understanding ourselves at an earlier age (and how our strengths of kindness can be a weakness) as well as awareness of disordered individuals.

Unchecked I know my youngest could walk into negative relationships just because they are too kind/empathic.

How to Recognize the Signs That Someone Is Lying

www.verywellmind.com/how-to-tell-if-someone-is-lying-2795917

To be Safe You Must Share – Al Turtle's Relationship Wisdom

www.alturtle.com/archives/1276

How much should you tell? – Al Turtle's Relationship Wisdom

www.alturtle.com/archives/168

Friends and family were also fooled by him, nobody was telling me not to marry this man, everyone thought it would be a wonderful happy marriage.

Reading your post OP I wondered about this ^ . Did he have everyone else fooled too or did you have family/friends who didn't like him and tried to get you to break up with him or leave him?

Some people are more attuned to the warning signs than others, but it's a trait of psychopaths/sociopaths that they're extremely charming and often do completely fool the uninitiated. I'm guessing there were signs, but you'd have had to know what to look for.

People who are good, decent human beings generally have no concept of how truly awful some other people can be. We assume that evil people are somehow identifiable pretty quickly
Also because you wouldn’t dream of behaving in a certain way it’s hard to get your head around other people doing it.
My upbringing was “interesting” but it gave me a very good arsehole radar, whereas DH struggles to spot them.
There was one person in our community who was generally respected and well liked, very charismatic, did loads for charity etc etc but although I got on well with them I knew there was a lot more too them.
When their actions came to light a lot of people still didn’t believe it or tried to excuse it but I was very very unsurprised.

The fact that you didn’t see what your ex was really like speaks to your decency more than any lacking on your part OP

OP, This is extremely tough stuff. Its the essence of what makes relationships often very difficult. You have not "failed". This is about how each partner deals with their own fear of telling their partner uncomfortable truths. What did each of you learn about sharing difficult feelings at a young age, for example. Lots of things to dig up and learn about yourself and any future partner and a chance to build something from afresh with a reciprocal commitment to honesty. Takes mutual bravery!