Hello MEN of Mumsnet - part 2

[bunglebells]

Had a really interesting thread last week asking to hear from MEN who DON'T use pornography (whether ever, have stopped or reduced). I, and others, found it genuinely interesting as often (including on here) it is claimed these men literally do not exist. Was in response to the numerous threads debating the subject - it did inevitably become an ethical debate but that's to be expected.

So, hello same, or different men!

Is there any of you (or men you know) that WOULD NOT GO TO A STRIP CLUB, BUT YOU HAVE DONE IN THE PAST. I suppose, like the porn question, I am interested to know why you have changed your mind/actions.

Again numerous threads debating it. Not asking the rights or wrongs, or particularly those that do it as a hobby or want to argue it's empowering (is it even allowed at the moment?).

I'm interested in hearing from mumsnet men respectfully. There's some self interest here - can these things be something done when younger, silly, unthinking, drunk, without thought and left in the past....

...again I have been wanting to ask this for some time as it's so polarised in general and am wondering if there is ever really scope for nuance and personal evolution?

@bunglebells
A couple of questions for you then,

1. Do you see a difference between old fashioned “Strippers” and lap dancers.

2. seeing how you next question is going to revolve around paying for sex, how do you feel about women paying men ( or other women) for sex ?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sex/4409847-Hiring-an-excort

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@bunglebells
A couple of questions for you then,

1. Do you see a difference between old fashioned “Strippers” and lap dancers.

2. seeing how you next question is going to revolve around paying for sex, how do you feel about women paying men ( or other women) for sex ?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sex/4409847-Hiring-an-excort[/quote]
Is there a difference - I suppose it's a scale. For me in terms of the sex industry it would go .... in terms of levels of being in the same room, personal interaction and intimacy...

...Porn - old school strippers - live sex shows - lap dancing - interactive cams - prostitution...

I think. So yes. A stripper in a room with no interaction I think is different to a lap dance.

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@bunglebells
A couple of questions for you then,

1. Do you see a difference between old fashioned “Strippers” and lap dancers.

2. seeing how you next question is going to revolve around paying for sex, how do you feel about women paying men ( or other women) for sex ?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sex/4409847-Hiring-an-excort[/quote]
Women paying for sex. I think I think it's very weird and very grim, but I would be lying if I said I think it's the same.

From a personal level, I simply cannot fathom paying someone to pretend they like you, are turned on etc. It suggests a level of either delusion, lack of self awareness, cognitive dissonance, desperation etc. I cannot for the life of me imagine that being a turn on. Knowing that someone who may well despise you (or people like you) is having sex with you for money.

So I think that also applies for women.

For men, I think paying for sex might indicate the above... which might even been seen as slightly sociopathic. Knowing that the person who was giving you a blow job probably hates you? I do think, for regulars, many men may be turns on by this power imbalance. I don't believe that's the case for all men that sleep with prostitutes, but for some - esp if using street prostitutes, maybe there's a sexual thrill in itself that complete imbalance of power.

I don't think this is quite the same for women paying for sex. I'm not condoning it - it's all grim in my opinion. But I don't think for women it's about power. I can't say it's ok, but as we live in a patria lethal society that objectifies women at every opportunity, and that reduction to object is at the heart of much of women's issues.... I think women paying for men doesn't have this cultural context, so perhaps is not quite the same.

Does that make sense. In a nutshell. It's still unsavoury in my mind, but isn't replicating power imbalances as the other way around does. I simply can't ever imagine a situation like amsterdam with genders reversed. Imagine it? Men in shop windows.

I don't know any woman that has paid for sex, thought about it, or even discussed it. Whereas it's ingrained (albeit secret) for many men. Theory ranges from 1/10 to 4/10 men in the uk that have paid for sex. I can't even begin to think what it would be for women??? 1/10 000?

Patria lethal??? Patriarchal!!

Should have said I've read research that say 1/10 through to 1/4 men. Not 4/10... so 10 to 25%. In some countries it's over 80%. Very culturally dependent.

@BigJeremy

Last query. The ones that are keen to go... any correlation with general attitude to women or not particularly?

Couldn't really say. I genuinely know more men that have admitted to paying for sexual contact than have admitted to visiting a strip club, even out of idle curiousity.
There is a definite aesthetic/vibe to strip clubs (beyond the obvious), so I'm sure there's a specific type of guy that just enjoys that specific type of ambience. Probay mostly the type of man who likes being around naked women though.

The men who have admitted to paying for sex. In your experience are they "punters" or mostly one off/Amsterdam as a teenager types?

Literally Amsterdam/Thailand and early 20s. I don't know anyone who admit to doing it regularly.

@BigJeremy

Literally Amsterdam/Thailand and early 20s. I don't know anyone who admit to doing it regularly.

How do they feel about it. Both are rather 😞despite the glossy facade in Holland, but Thailand is obviously massively problematic?

Bit of a mistake/joke? Curiosity? Do they talk of it fondly or with shame?
Or neither?! Would they admit it to women?

I don't think it's mainly about power over women, I think the sexual dynamics are just different.
Just as it's very easy for a woman to find a man who's happy to NSA sex, it's very difficult for a man to find a woman into the same. The situations feed eachother.
An averagely attractive woman will have a ton of offers and in that situation, why would she not pick the most attractive men she can find?
For the average man, the level of attractiveness of an NSA partner (if he can actually find one) will probably be much lower than he could get if he was willing to pay.
The pornographic fantasy is essentially sex being treated as men would like it to be treated, which doesn't really exist in real life unless you are very attractive, very famous or willing to pay.
I also think it's more about men's attitudes to sex, than their attitudes to women. I once spent a day sunbathing on a nude beach in Barcelona in my 20s that turned out to be a hangout scene for the gay community. Over the course of a day I was eyed up in a way that I've never been by women and directly propositioned for sex twice (once by a couple who invited me back to their hotel room and another by a man who didn't speak English but mimed an offer of a handjob whilst I was washing my hands after taking a whizz).
I've never experienced anything like that in my decades of life as a heterosexual man interacting with women.
In Thailand, I once stumbled upon the gay equivalent of the Amsterdam red light windows so they do exist, it's just not women who frequent them.

@BigJeremy

I don't think it's mainly about power over women, I think the sexual dynamics are just different. Just as it's very easy for a woman to find a man who's happy to NSA sex, it's very difficult for a man to find a woman into the same. The situations feed eachother. An averagely attractive woman will have a ton of offers and in that situation, why would she not pick the most attractive men she can find? For the average man, the level of attractiveness of an NSA partner (if he can actually find one) will probably be much lower than he could get if he was willing to pay. The pornographic fantasy is essentially sex being treated as men would like it to be treated, which doesn't really exist in real life unless you are very attractive, very famous or willing to pay. I also think it's more about men's attitudes to sex, than their attitudes to women. I once spent a day sunbathing on a nude beach in Barcelona in my 20s that turned out to be a hangout scene for the gay community. Over the course of a day I was eyed up in a way that I've never been by women and directly propositioned for sex twice (once by a couple who invited me back to their hotel room and another by a man who didn't speak English but mimed an offer of a handjob whilst I was washing my hands after taking a whizz). I've never experienced anything like that in my decades of life as a heterosexual man interacting with women. In Thailand, I once stumbled upon the gay equivalent of the Amsterdam red light windows so they do exist, it's just not women who frequent them.

That's an interesting read. And I think there's a lot of truth in it. suppose (some of) gay culture gives us a clue. Men are more detached.

Am not 100% all men want sex to be like porn sex though? Many. But surely many men do want connection and intimacy as opposed to just rutting?! I think my previous thread revealed many men aren't into this.

@BigJeremy

I don't think it's mainly about power over women, I think the sexual dynamics are just different. Just as it's very easy for a woman to find a man who's happy to NSA sex, it's very difficult for a man to find a woman into the same. The situations feed eachother. An averagely attractive woman will have a ton of offers and in that situation, why would she not pick the most attractive men she can find? For the average man, the level of attractiveness of an NSA partner (if he can actually find one) will probably be much lower than he could get if he was willing to pay. The pornographic fantasy is essentially sex being treated as men would like it to be treated, which doesn't really exist in real life unless you are very attractive, very famous or willing to pay. I also think it's more about men's attitudes to sex, than their attitudes to women. I once spent a day sunbathing on a nude beach in Barcelona in my 20s that turned out to be a hangout scene for the gay community. Over the course of a day I was eyed up in a way that I've never been by women and directly propositioned for sex twice (once by a couple who invited me back to their hotel room and another by a man who didn't speak English but mimed an offer of a handjob whilst I was washing my hands after taking a whizz). I've never experienced anything like that in my decades of life as a heterosexual man interacting with women. In Thailand, I once stumbled upon the gay equivalent of the Amsterdam red light windows so they do exist, it's just not women who frequent them.

Thailand? Any personal insight? I've always thought that a western man taking part in sex work there is worse than in the uk. They must know these women are in that position as a result of economics, culture, social dynamics that are deeply problematic. Don't they care about them human to human?

I've always suspected that if more men had access to the same level of sexual attention as the average woman, they'd probably become more sexually selective but I don't know if that holds when you look at the gay community and compare something like tinder to Grindr.
It was intended to be a heterosexual analogue to Grindr, but that just doesn't work when women are in the mix.
In regards to Thailand, the sex industry is pretty open there. You can't really walk around in certain areas without being propositioned and you do see a lot of Western men with younger Thai women.
Tbh, I didn't really talk to any of the men, I just watched and did some reading around the subject.
It's undeniably exploitative, because the money goes much further in Thailand than it would in most western countries, but that's part of the reason it's such a popular "profession". Women will travel from the more rural areas to make some money and ideally end up in a "relationship" with a foreigner.
From what I've heard, having a few western "boyfriends" can be pretty lucrative.
This option isn't open to men from similar backgrounds so you end up with these matriarchal situations where entire families are being funded by a few western men who are paying for the lifestyles of women who they see maybe a month out of the year. Women will often have a few of these men on the go, alongside their actual Thai families. I think this is generally the end goal of sex work in Thailand.
I've heard of women emigrating to western countries and trying to setup other women from their village with friends if their western husbands.
Talking to the women, there was a clear racial hierarchy to the men that women approached (that's the general way round it worked). As a black guy, I walked around with fairly little hassle but the women would literally try to drag white and east Asian men into clubs.

@bunglebells
Thanks for the replies, very interesting to hear your thoughts, when it comes to women buying sex, I think it’s different from men ( who are probably just after a quick shag), seems like some women like to buy a ‘fantasy’ experience, perhaps something they cannot get at home

inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/the-women-who-pay-for-sex-148756

Looks like a book is being written on the subject.

Looks like the book is out
www.amazon.co.uk/Women-Who-Buy-Sex-Interdisciplinary/dp/1138699179/ref=nodl_?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@BigJeremy
I've always suspected that if more men had access to the same level of sexual attention as the average woman, they'd probably become more sexually selective but I don't know if that holds when you look at the gay community and compare something like tinder to Grindr.

I understand that gay men have more sex than straight men, though apparently the difference isn't very big.
But I'd assume there would be big variations within the gay community, with more attractive people having more sex (either having more sex with attractive partners, or being a relationship with an attractive partner) and unattractive people having little or no sex.

I think attractive men are more selective, but it would be feasible for all men to have the same sexual options as average women - that would require attractive women to be having sex with multiple men per day!

@bunglebells
*I don't think this is quite the same for women paying for sex. I'm not condoning it - it's all grim in my opinion. But I don't think for women it's about power. I can't say it's ok, but as we live in a patria lethal society that objectifies women at every opportunity, and that reduction to object is at the heart of much of women's issues.... I think women paying for men doesn't have this cultural context, so perhaps is not quite the same.

Does that make sense. In a nutshell. It's still unsavoury in my mind, but isn't replicating power imbalances as the other way around does. I simply can't ever imagine a situation like amsterdam with genders reversed. Imagine it? Men in shop windows.*

Why do you think there is a difference in power imbalance depending on whether men are paying women or women are paying men? Can you explain why you think the patriarchal aspects of society are relevant to paying for sex? The buyers are powerful in the sense that they choose to buy sex from sex workers who may have been coerced. But the buyers are weak in the sense that they cannot obtain sex consensually, and so feel they have to resort to paying. These factors are the same whether it is men or women though.

Isn't sexual objectification is driven by what people desire? Isn't it a case of "sex sells" and most buyers are men, so it's mostly female sex selling (both sex work and scantily clad sexy women being ubiquitous). If women were exactly the same as men, I think we'd expect to see a sex industry for women of the same size. If this is correct, men in shop windows seems ridiculous precisely because it seems ridiculous to women.

I'm not able to put myself in the mind of someone who pays for sex, but I'm sceptical that it's about power. My assumption is that people generally like to feel desired, like to believe that they are satisfying their partner, and they like intimacy/sensuality/caressing/kissing etc., and not just suck and f*ck. Clearly some people who pay for sex want this, as a lot of escorts offer GFE (girlfriend experience) which caters to this desire.

[quote Georgist]@bunglebells
*I don't think this is quite the same for women paying for sex. I'm not condoning it - it's all grim in my opinion. But I don't think for women it's about power. I can't say it's ok, but as we live in a patria lethal society that objectifies women at every opportunity, and that reduction to object is at the heart of much of women's issues.... I think women paying for men doesn't have this cultural context, so perhaps is not quite the same.

Does that make sense. In a nutshell. It's still unsavoury in my mind, but isn't replicating power imbalances as the other way around does. I simply can't ever imagine a situation like amsterdam with genders reversed. Imagine it? Men in shop windows.*

Why do you think there is a difference in power imbalance depending on whether men are paying women or women are paying men? Can you explain why you think the patriarchal aspects of society are relevant to paying for sex? The buyers are powerful in the sense that they choose to buy sex from sex workers who may have been coerced. But the buyers are weak in the sense that they cannot obtain sex consensually, and so feel they have to resort to paying. These factors are the same whether it is men or women though.

Isn't sexual objectification is driven by what people desire? Isn't it a case of "sex sells" and most buyers are men, so it's mostly female sex selling (both sex work and scantily clad sexy women being ubiquitous). If women were exactly the same as men, I think we'd expect to see a sex industry for women of the same size. If this is correct, men in shop windows seems ridiculous precisely because it seems ridiculous to women.

I'm not able to put myself in the mind of someone who pays for sex, but I'm sceptical that it's about power. My assumption is that people generally like to feel desired, like to believe that they are satisfying their partner, and they like intimacy/sensuality/caressing/kissing etc., and not just suck and f*ck. Clearly some people who pay for sex want this, as a lot of escorts offer GFE (girlfriend experience) which caters to this desire.[/quote]
I think from what I've read from sex workers... the GFE is popular, but so is s@@@ and f@@@. Surely though, even with the GFE, it's pure delusion. I just can't understand it. At least with the latter it not pretending to be anything other than rutting. GFE is weird in that you are paying for faked affection too. It's somehow so... incomprehensible. Same would go for women paying for this with men too.

I do think that male entitlement to female objectification - in the media, sex workers, how men talk about women... the list would go on, is related to patriarchy. How could it not be. If women in society (all societies to a greater or lesser extent) are seen as lesser, paid less, respected less, reduced to object more... then surely paying women for sex is seen as less problematic. Women are in their place there.

I've always thought it an odd argument for the benefits of porn when people point out that... well, porn stars and lap dancers earn more than the men in their workplace. Well, yes. But in and of itself in our society isn't that something of concern. That one of the few places my daughter could outearn men is an industry where she is completely objectified to cater to them?!