Can a narcissist really change?

[kilk5]

I left my H a while ago for many reasons. One being I realised after 6 years that he was a narcissist. He had also coercive controlled me.

Comes from a terrible childhood which I urged him to get help for which was always a flat NO.

Despite him treating me terribly, I still care for him a great deal although I never imagined myself going back to him.

Over the weekend, he sent me a long message and told me he had accepted he needed help to change and to deal with trauma from the past. He asked me to find him a good therapist. And I have. And he is booked in for weekly sessions. Over the weekend I saw him cry...and I mean really cry.

He hasn't asked me to return home but he has said he is willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage work.

I am remaining strong, not giving anything away.

So my question is, with therapy, could he really change? Anyone experienced this?

I am still almost certain our marriage is over but I can't help thinking how it could of been if he were different. Though ultimately the damage is done and it would take such a lot for me to go back, I don't think I would ever feel comfortable.

I also feel it will be a long road for him, I would happily support him in his journey but from a distance.

Im just interested in other peoples experiences or thoughts?

I never imagined to ever get to the stage where he would do therapy. The therapist I found for him sounded absolutely great but said H must make the first move and gave me the email address or phone number.

I didn't expect H would do either, maybe email....but he rang and made the call, spoke to the therapist and had booked three weekly appointments.

This is something I've been trying to get him to do for 6 years. It's just a shame our marriage had to end to get to this point.

I'm very aware he may just be doing this to get me back but I'm trying to see the positive in that he may change.

Opinions welcome

They almost never change.

A psychologist explained to me that firstly it would involve the person acknowledging that they have NPD - which is incredibly difficult because a person with NPD creates a false self, or selves, which do an incredible job of protecting the true self.
Secondly, on the slim chance someone acknowledges that they have NPD, this then goes hand in hand with the disintegration of the false protective self, or selves, a person with NPD carries around with them. This will result in extreme trauma, a breakdown, there could be psychosis, all sorts of potential consequences.

I do think people with these issues can change if they are genuinely motivated to do so, for themselves (rather than for any external factors eg to avoid a divorce), and have the ability to self reflect and accept responsibility which is very difficult due to shame making them highly defensive.

What I think is almost impossible is to change the dynamic within an ongoing relationship that has previously been toxic/abusive. So he might be able to improve his behaviour in a different relationship but not in this one.

@2catsandhappy

The only thing that has changed is his method of control. He is attacking you from a different angle. Please do not allow him any more headspace.

Yep. It’s moving through the FOG (from fear to obligation and guilt).

PP mentioned trauma bonding and codependents - read up on that so you can address those vulnerabilities in yourself or work with a therapist if you can.

He is just trying to hoover you back into punching distance and then he will change tack again.

Really NC is the only way you will free yourself of him.

I think my ex has changed.

From a vunerable narcissist to a grandiose one. How they feel about themselves won't change how they feel about others.

Thanks for all responses- it's actually sadly reassuring to know they won't change. Any answers that would say different would sway me with the thought of 'what if...'

He asked me to look for a counsellor for him as he just can't look after himself. Doesn't have a clue what he's doing. I went along with it because it's something I've wanted him to do for years. Wether he goes through with it, sticks with it is up to him

He asked me to find him a good therapist. And I have.

Oh fucking hell.
& you went along with his charade.

Sorry OP, I'm not trying to tick you off, I am simply dismayed.

If he was genuine, he'd have left you alone, found his own bloody therapist, kept his therapeutic journey decently private, & only contacted you when he'd done some hard work on himself.

Forget his performative crying & read up on what he is doing to you - lonerwolf.com/hoovering/

I'm sorry for all the years of contentment he stole from you. As you say - you've come a long way since then. I expect that irks him.

He's still manipulating you.

You do know it's a cluster b personality disorder right? Not just 'being a bit of a knob' or something. Of course he can't change. No more than a lion can become a lamb. Psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists can never stop being what they are. No one can therapise basic human empathy into someone who hasn't developed it by adulthood. It's there or it isn't. And in abusers and predators, I just not there.

Looks to get yourself to change. Because you are capable of it. You are capable of being able to say 'I pity this person but I will pity them from as far away as fucking possible'. Love yourself op and treat yourself with respect by choosing you over anyone who treats you badly.

Another good resource: outofthefog.website/

@kilk5

Thanks for all responses- it's actually sadly reassuring to know they won't change. Any answers that would say different would sway me with the thought of 'what if...'

He asked me to look for a counsellor for him as he just can't look after himself. Doesn't have a clue what he's doing. I went along with it because it's something I've wanted him to do for years. Wether he goes through with it, sticks with it is up to him

Leave him to it now. The situation you've created by helping him is one where, because you chose the counsellor, he can manipulate you by saying 'Either you made a shit choice (why would you do that to me?) or counselling hasn't helped (so the problems between us must be down to you)'

Look into why the part of you that says 'What if' says 'What if'. Even outside of this situation, that's the damaged part of you that, unless you get to the bottom of it, will lead you into further abusive relationships in the future, and quite probably has you in some compromised situations elsewhere in your life where your boundaries are weak and you don't realise they're being crossed.

As a definition of a cluster b personality disorder, I found it helpful to see it as a slightly different species. They look like us and can act like us, but they respond to different triggers. I heard a fox described as dog hardware with cat software, and that's what narcissists/psychopaths are like; they're programmed differently to the rest of us; a different human species. Once you learn about their behaviour patterns, you'll see that they're all the same, and very predictable. I found that disturbing until I realised that we all are. Respect us, we will respect you. Love us, we will have a soft spot for you. Swear at us, we will become defensive and upset. Cluster bs just have different responses. Love them, they will see that you can be used as a tool. Offend them, they will destroy you. If someone more useful loves them, they will walk away without a second glance. Stay on their side, they will eternally see you as a tool, and leave you in the toolshed, picking you up and putting you down whenever suits them.

None of it's complicated, but understanding, conceptually, that that's how he's programmed might help you move forward without him.

@TheFoundations that is such a stonking post I have copied it & squirrelled it away. Thank you.
I kinda 'know' this Cluster-B stuff intellectually but that 3rd paragraph & analogies are the most clear, direct & compelling description I've ever read about it.

Someone once described my ex - who has narcissist running through him like a stick of rock - as an android.
He is.
The mutated rewiring as @TheFoundations describes is precisely this. They need more than re booting their entire hard drive is corrupted.

As part of healing from the immense pain, damage and horror he has wrought on my life the thing that has helped me is - with help - learning to both understand and believe the above analogy. In doing so it fundamentally repositions any guilt or bewilderment or misplaced hope that trauma bonding and everything else about experiencing narcissistic abuse conditions you into enduring for so long.

If he hasnt had any professional therapy how did he get diagnosed as a narcissist?

I've been listening to the podcasts of Dr Supriya McKenna and Karen Walker 'Narcissists and Divorce, the Lure, the Loss and the Law'. its opened my eyes. I just wish I'd found it 25 years ago as I now finally understand whats been happening for so long. Listen to it or get the book. Honestly its a revelation and I'm so grateful for the information and advice. I dont think narcissists are able to change im afraid as they are wired this way. Any change will be temporary and only if it suits them and will probably be ultimately a facade just to keep their supply going. im trying to extricate myself from a lifetime of what I've just discovered is a total fabrication. its unbelievably hard. you've made the move, dont get sucked back in. Good luck and all the very best.

@Twiglets1

My daughter was in a relationship with a narcissist and he agreed to go to counselling only at the point she was about to leave him. As with you, he asked her to find a counsellor for him. He was utterly charming to his female counsellor to the point where he proudly relayed that she had said that she couldn’t believe that he was someone who would have anger issues unless seriously provoked - in other words it wasn’t his fault. Thus he stopped the counselling after about 3 sessions ( complaining bitterly about the cost). How honest was he to his counsellor? Obviously not very - he just saw her as another person to charm and lie to in order to win her approval. He was right in one sense - it was a waste of money.

But if you want to be a friend to your ex, you could stick around for a few months ( only as a friend) to see if he is really getting anything from the counselling and gaining some personal insight through being honest with them. Please don’t fantasise about a new relationship with him though - the odds are highly stacked against him genuinely changing.

In my experience it is impossible to remain friends with one. They will start demanding more and more, they will monitor you and they won't allow you to move on with your life. Block and ignore is the only way forward. He will never change, he will just act it for a bit. They are master manipulators with zero shits given about how their behaviour affects you.

I promise you he will never change… you know the traits and definition of a narcissist? It will always be about them, they will always lie, control and everything that goes with a narcissist. Leaving you with scars and issues for the rest of your life…
It’s so hard but you have to completely cut contact with this person…you need time to heal and hope the damage isn’t already done.
I’ve been in that relationship and all of the above. They relationship I’m in at the moment isn’t great either…I’m still a push over, that allows certain behaviour, with scars and issues… don’t let this be you…

‘A liar’s a liar, a cheat’s a cheat’

Narcs hide in plain sight when they need to go under undercover.

They are expert master manipulators, always bear that in mind.

The past trauma might be genuine, but healing that won’t heal the personality disorder.

He asked me to find him a good therapist.
He tricked you into doing this as he will use it as the stick to beat you with when the therapy fails.

I hope you find the strength to walk away, and will look into 'rescuing behaviour' and consider therapy for yourself.
You say he can't cope with finding a therapist; but it wasn't your responsibility to do it. Its likely he tested you by asking you to rescue him near the start of the relationship, to make sure you were a good fit.

No they don’t change. He’s hoovering you. Would you have gone to him to find a counsellor? Of course not, you’re an adult and capable of finding one yourself. So is he. It’s all part of a plan for you to feel sorry for him so he can reel you back in.

Don’t fall for it. Cut him loose again.

Hi OP, something reassuring you can take from this post is that a narcissist will pretend that they are special and different. However, they all follow a pattern of behaviour. All of us who have experienced one can accurately predict what they will do next to try to get you on side. Before gradually trickling the same behaviour back in. Probably most of us without prior experience of one would have given a second chance (I know I did) because you can't quite believe that someone can behave like that. You can't rationalise their behaviour and you can't fix it. Deleting this person from your life is the only way to move on from it.

What do you mean he just can't look after himself and doesn't have a clue? That sounds like a classic line to elicit pity and caretaking from you.
Any semi competent adult can find their own therapist (or doctor, dentist, optometrist, etc). Wake up OP.

I have just asked the question - doesn't mean I'm going to return. I have remained strong and will continue to do so.

I have absolutely zero plans to go back. There's no part of me that wants too. Im having my own therapy now and plan on continuing on my own journey.

This reminds me how alcoholics / addicts behave. They push you over the brink and when you are gone they sit up and promise the earth - they do this not because they care about you or the relationship - because if they did they wouldn’t have put you through hell and pushed you over the edge.

It’s all self serving and his tears are not for you or the relationship. They are for themselves.

If he were an addict any service would tell him to work on his own personal stuff single and be dry for at least a year before even embarking on a relationship.

Well done for leaving. Well done to reflecting on this latest dynamic. Well done for posting on here to clarify your thoughts.

I would be putting in higher, wider boundaries now. The end game is that you detach and heal so that you can have a solid emotional future with someone else in time. You cannot do this if you are still involved, enmeshed, looking back stuck in his web.

I hope you find the energy and focus to withdraw from this relationship in order to create space for your own emotional growth, healing and future. You cannot achieve this stuck in his swamp.

A person with a diagnosed personality disorder cannot change it.

But they can take ownership, accountability and learn how to manage their behaviour and thought processes.
I follow a guy online who has been diagnosed for about 7 years and through therapy has repaired his relationships and basically turned his life around. So it’s possible but I doubt it’s anything like easy.
If your husband is serious then the commitment to therapy will be imperative, it’s not short term - he could be seeing a therapist in one way or another for the rest of his life.

@Ohpulltheotherone

A person with a diagnosed personality disorder cannot change it.

But they can take ownership, accountability and learn how to manage their behaviour and thought processes.
I follow a guy online who has been diagnosed for about 7 years and through therapy has repaired his relationships and basically turned his life around. So it’s possible but I doubt it’s anything like easy.
If your husband is serious then the commitment to therapy will be imperative, it’s not short term - he could be seeing a therapist in one way or another for the rest of his life.

Thank you - he isn't diagnosed. My therapist told me from what I've told her - the complete and honest truth that he sounds like a narcissist. I've then done my research and realised it myself.

He starts therapy soon but I doubt he will give it long enough to make any solid attempts to change the way he is.