BIL advice...

[EJSW]

Sorry this is going to be a long one. I'm a long time lurker but first time poster. This is really worrying me and I don't want to upset anyone IRL by talking it about it

My DH's family have had problems with my BIL since before I met him (10 years). I'm not sure exactly how long but since he was mid teens and he's 32 now. He moved away 5 years ago but is due to move back soon and my MIL is keen for us to put everything behind us, move on and have a relationship with BIL.

He's a drug addict and alcoholic, so I recognise he needs help, but he refuses it and has done so much over the years that I'd be here forever listing everything. But to give a few examples:

• He showed up at my PIL's house while they were on holiday, high on drugs. Me and DH were there. He smashed the house up, accused DH of moving his drugs, and then went for him with a meat clever. He was so high he ended up hurting himself, luckily DH was not hurt. Caused thousands ££ of damage.

• Showed up at our house, drunk and high. DH tried to calm him down, DH ended up with a dislocated hip, a broken nose and some other minor injuries. I (wrongly) started shouting at him and he ended up pushing me and I fell down the stairs. He then took the keys for my DH's car, drove off and crashed it in the next town.

• Has stolen from a lot of family members to buy drugs and alcohol, and damaged a lot of property. He makes horrible threats; to burn down houses and kill people, he has a horrible temper.

• He assualted his girlfriend, smashed up her house (including breaking all the windows while her baby was inside), then stole her car and again crashed it. He was arrested but didn't attend his court hearing. He eventually turned himself in after a warrant was issued for his arrest and he was given a conditional discharge. This is still in place.

• Ran up a load of debt while registered as living at my PIL (he's always in between houses). They ended up with bailiffs at the house. My FIL had recently had a heart attack and ended up back in hospital from the stress of it.

My MIL in particular thinks I'm unreasonable in holding a grudge. I've always respected that he's her son so I've not once said anything bad to her about him, I've just avoided any events he'll be at and ignore any mention of him. She brings him up a lot but I'm not sure if this is an attempt to get me to forgive him, or if she just needs to vent. We're close and I'm the only other female in the family so she does talk to me a lot when she's worried about things. It's usually telling me the bad stuff too, so it doesn't help move me towards forgiveness as it's just a constant chain of awful behaviour. And I care for my PIL so it whilst I don't care about him, it hurts me to see them hurt and they'd be broken if anything happened to him (prison, injury).

My DH is understanding about it all. He knows and appreciates how I feel so wouldn't expect me to have a relationship with BIL. They don't have one and rarely talk, so no worries from this side of things.

I don't want to upset my PIL but the thought of having a relationship with him makes me feel sick. I've had treatment for anxiety in the past and my MIL says that because of this I should understand that he's not well. But I've never done anything to anyone because of my anxiety, and I've taken every piece of help offered to me, so I struggle to see us as comparable.

What would you do? Should I try and build a relationship with him for the sake of my PIL, or stand my ground that the things he has done are unforgiveable to me? Should I be the one to say it or should I speak to DH and see if it's something he'd want to say on our behalf? I just don't want to upset anyone, including myself.

Sorry again that this was so long . I'm really stressing myself out over it and needed to get it all out.

I think I’d be honest with them. I’d find it unforgivable too and why does his needs trump yours? You have to do right by yourself and your DH. Get your DH to talk to his parents about it and if MIL brings him up, I would just say that you have to agree to disagree about BIL because you are not going to be able to change how you feel and being honest is important to you. That you love them and will support them, but that is not extended to BIL.

From the information you've given above there is no way I'd be trying to build a relationship with this man.

I'm all for giving people second chances, BUT they have to show that they've taken responsibility for past damage that they've done and shown that they're taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again and to make up for harming others so badly.

He doesn't seem to be doing any of those things.

How are you supposed to trust that he won't repeat past behaviours? What he did previously, physically maimed your husband and could have killed you. This shouldn't be taken lightly and your MiL has no right to minimise his behaviour...

You have to be firm with your boundaries, even where other people around your BiL are not. You cannot stop your MiL spending time with him but there's no way I'd a) be picking up the pieces if he wrecks their house again, or b) having BiL anywhere near my house and I'd be very clear about this with MiL. If she doesn't like it, that's not your problem.

Tell mil to fuck off. She may have loyalty to her ds but you don't.

I wouldn't give him another chance after what you've said he's done. I would tell your mil you're sorry but you can't as it would be too distressing and that you cannot be sure he won't revert to his own ways. You're worried about her feelings, expect her to reciprocate.

No, no and no again. I wouldn't be having anything to do with him!
And if he ever touched me again I'd be having him arrested for assault.

I would keep my distance. Why would you have a relationship with BIL if dh doesn't? I'm a practical sense how would that happen?
I would nod along with MIL "yes he is ill, yes he needs help, no grudges here" but also no time or effort here either.

Thank you. Everytime I think about it I laugh at myself for even considering it, it's such a straight forward decision when I see it all written down. But I'm the only one not blood related and my MIL can be very forceful with her opinions and I feel guilty easily, so sometimes she gets me wondering if I'm in the wrong

He's done similar things to a lot of people around here. We're a small village and a lot of families won't be happy to hear he's back.

Sally872 she will want us both to, I think I'm just the soft target. Her and DH don't talk as much as we do (he's self employed and works long hours often), and I am a lot "softer" than DH

Has he ever been to prison for any of these things he's done?

He did a short stint before I met him, nothing for the incidents at his PIL, community service for the incident with the car at ours, then a conditional discharge for the most recent with his (now ex) girlfriend. There is a CCJ in place for the debt. Neither of my PIL would ever report an incident. He has also spent countless nights in the cells after smaller incidents on drunken nights out. I am surprised he's not been given a rehabilitation order. I'm not sure how it works but some forced treatment might help.

*his parents sorry, my PIL.

He sounds really dangerous. I would have nothing to do with him. It’s a shame he hasn’t had a decent spell in prison. That might actually force him to sort himself out. I don’t understand how he’s not in prison for what he did to his girlfriend.

My MIL in particular thinks I'm unreasonable in holding a grudge

You are looking at this all wrong OP. This woman wants you to play nice with a man that physically assaulted you and injured your DH, her own son. She is showing you that she will put her own comfort above your physical safety. You need to start getting very angry and ask her why what he did should be forgotten? I would be cutting contact right back, I bet shes the type to show up with him at your house to "smoothe" things over :ie back you into a corner to get you to STFU.

@EJSW

Sally872 she will want us both to, I think I'm just the soft target. Her and DH don't talk as much as we do (he's self employed and works long hours often), and I am a lot "softer" than DH

She can want what she likes. You can't make it happen and have to support dh because you agree with him. Let her talk and then say "I wish him well in his recovery" do not agree to meet him or meditate between him and dh. "You'll have to talk to dh about that" if you can't explain it yourself.

Absolute worse case distance from mil to avoid getting sucked in.

Just be absolutely "cold bloodedly" truthful with mil about him. Don't get emotional ( easier said than done I know) stay calm, but Take No Shit!
If she says "oh he didn't mean xyz, he's ill" say "that may be, but he injured DH and I" or " he may well be ill, but he won't get treatment, we can't trust him not to attack us again"
If she wants him to visit you, say "he damaged our house and threatened/hurt/broke xyz/it cost us X£ to fix last time. We aren't prepared to take the risk"
Just tell the truth. Calmly and quietly, and every single time. If she outright asks you to forgive and/or forget just say "no, we can't" (maybe add that if he gets clean and sober for a decent length of time, and apologises you will reconsider, but only if that's true.
It's not down to you and your DH to make mil feel better that her other son is a twat.

I think you & DH need write a letter to her with something like, “Look, I know he’s your son and you love him unconditionally because you’re his DM. I have tried to respect your feelings on the subject, but as you won’t return the favour, you leave me no other option than to return the sentiment. MIL, I love you, but you need to remove your rose-coloured glasses and see that the longer you continue to try and force then victims of BIL’s addictions to accept your opinions, the more likely it is that they will end up resenting you. Do not tell me that I am holding a grudge MIL. I am telling you that I do not feel safe around a drug addict who attacked me and my DH in YOUR home with a CLEAVER and another time attacked us in our own home, pushing me down the stairs, broke my husband’s nose and dislocated his hip - no mean feat, btw., then stole his car and crashed it when he was off his tits on drugs. Mil you need to remove your rose-coloured glasses and look at how trying to force your opinion of him on all his victims is affecting your relationship with them. He is not a matyr or the prodigal son. He is still an addict who has shown no remorse for his actions or done anything to atone for them. One of his victims is also your son. He does not feel loved unconditionally when you tell the woman he loves that she needs to get over herself and start socializing with someone who forced himself into her home and committed violence against her and her husband, forget feelings of distrust and terror and oh yeah, “Stop holding that little grudge”.

I'd have nothing to do with him.

You're MIL may want to pretend her son isn't a violent criminal but that doesn't mean he is.

I'd need proof he had been drug free for at least a year before I was even in the same room as him after what he did to you and your husband.

Keep on doing what you have so far - your views and approach are completely justified.
If you keep being pushed and want to explain (I stress here want - you don't have to) I would use the phrase actions mean more than words - if you see long term behaviours that show he has changed then perhaps your stance will ease, such as 2-5 years without violence, aggression, drug taking, alcohol dependency, commitment to rehabilitation therapies but you need to see them happen not just the words that they will be done. Then perhaps you will be happy to reassess your stance but till then you will carry on as you have...

Does he acknowledge that he has a problem? Has he ever apologised to anyone for those incidents?

Thank you for your replies everyone, it's reassuring to hear I'm not being unreasonable and there is some really good wording we can use to form our response!

He has acknowledged having problems before, but in my opinion its not because he wants help but is almost a brag - "I'm fucked up and can't be helped" sort of thing. Usually to my PIL after an incident or to his childish social media friends. I really do think he thinks it's "cool". He's refused all help and won't see a GP/professional.

Never really had any apologies. Neither me or DH have but I think there have been a few to his parents. They are never heartfelt and there is usually an ulterior motive (money). He obviously can never pay for any of the damage either. He works but can never hold down a job for more than a few months before he loses it.

We've been strict that he's not to be given our address, but I agree that bringing him round to try and force the situation might be something she'd do.

I wish I could just switch off from it. The thought of him probably being in the background for the rest of my life is crushing!

This is a really easy one OP.

He is not to come to your house ever till he can prove he is clean. I would have absolutely no issue with stating this to any one. Your DH mums is just another female with her own views. Her views can be totally different to yours.

I'm all for giving people second chances, BUT they have to show that they've taken responsibility for past damage that they've done and shown that they're taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again and to make up for harming others so badly.

^^This, and it is what you should tell MIL.

Op now is your chance to set in stone to mil exactly what you will be doing in this situation.

Set a boundary now because if you don't she will start to filter him into your lives and it will be harder to get out of.

Sit her down directly and tell her you do not want him near your home and she is not ever to bring him there.

Tel her you love her very much but you won't be supporting her choices or decisions because what has happened previously is unforgivable and you don't want that in your life.

I would also tell her that although she's supporting her son and you respect her decision you will be supporting her other son and protecting yourselves against anymore crap that comes with him.

People like that who won't engage and get help don't deserve others to help them in my opinion.

He knows right from wrong and so do you

Protect yourselves and your dh.

Seriously op don't even consider supporting them unless you want all that shit bak at your door again.

Just because he's family doesn't make it ok for others to have to tolerate his shit

Stop being in contact with your MIL as much. Your Dh doesn't speak to her often so why are you bothering? You can switch off from it by detaching from her and any other family members who try to get you to support your junkie, criminal, abusive bil. So don't call her, don't call to their house. If she calls you, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Your MIL can't see past the fact that he's her son so she will stand up for him and play down his drug use, abuse etc. But you and Dh don't have to do this. You don't have to be supportive of him, nor do you have to be supportive of your PIL for prioritising bil over the rest of the family. So when she calls you and brings it up again tell her that you are not interested in forming any kind of relationship with bil and that you do not want to engage in any more conversations about him. I had to do this at one point with MIL and every time she did bring the relative up in conversation I'd change the subject. Be firm. If she gets in a huff all the better - you can go LC or NC with the lot of them if you choose. She doesn't own you, she doesn't get to tell you what to do, so remember that!

Blimey. I would have pressed charges after he broke your husband's hip and pushed you down the stairs. Also when he attacked your husband with a meat cleaver.

He's been getting away with his bad behaviour for too long - there are (almost) no consequences for him, so why wouldn't he carry on acting however he wants?

If he has mental health issues, he needs to seek medical help. Until then, I absolutely, definitely wouldn't have any sort of civil relationship with him.