Avoidant men

[cocochanel99]

I have ended another relationship with an avoidant man. It is just one after the other. I meet most of these men online but some in real life. I do not think I am attracting them - perhaps I give them too much of my time yes. I am looking for my life partner to settle down with. My girlfriends are in the same position. We are all mid to late 30s. It is one peter pan man after the next. I have no idea how most women end up married, based on our experiences. I cannot face dating again. How can I meet mature, settled men who are ready for a meaningful relationship? Any thoughts/advice/support?

@LucentBlade

I have never dated an avoidant man.

I never ever thought I would marry or have dc because it seemed a bit of a hassle and interfering of my life’s plan which was all about my career.

Are you possibly too nice and accommodating ? I am by my own admission a bit difficult and selfish. Never tried to please men especially. Nothing was a specific plan I just didn’t change how I was for anyone.

Why do you think your fun, what do you like doing?

I hadn’t either until I got divorced.

I’d had three other offers of marriage before I accepted too. So maybe the age pool thing is true - there’s just more avoidant men in my age group now. Or maybe life makes us all more sceptical.

The thing is OP, whether they are “avoidant” or not doesn’t matter. Rather than dismissing people with whom your relationship goes nowhere as avoidant you should look at what you CAN control: yourself.

I am similar age to you and have friends in the same predicament. My observation is:

1. Women in mid late 30s become just too desperate and it shows. You need to learn to date multiple people and not push unwilling guys to move throw relationship milestones. As you say you spend too much time on a given man. Don’t do this. Don’t become exclusive. Look at actions rather than what they say. Many people tell you some truth but not the whole truth. He might want to settle down and get married in future. But not to you. Unfortunately men don’t have a biological clock.

1. not willing to loosen any criteria: again something I see with my friends. Unwilling to date a short man. Unwilling to date a single dad. Unwilling to date someone without university education. Unwilling to date a creative without much money. This lack of willingness to compromise really diminishes your dating pool. Yes the tall single child free bankers will go out with you, but doesn’t mean they necessarily settle down with you.

Also if you really like children, why not look into having one by yourself? Take your fate in your hands rather than pinning everything on a man you may or may not meet. Having a child by yourself doesn’t mean you can’t get married at a later date.

@AnaViaSalamanca I'm not sure telling people they should have to settle is really it. Most single women I know are just looking for their equal. That's it. These are successful, professional, attractive women who keep fit, have hobbies and full lives and they are looking for someone similar. Why should they be expected to drop their standards when there are plenty of single men on their own level? Why is the onus not on men to stop acting like Peter Pan?

You make the things you listed sound petty, but they're really not. 'Unwilling to date a creative without much money' - well yes, poverty really isn't much fun. Creativity doesn't pay mortgages, feed children or keep a car running. I lived in poverty in my twenties and I would never, ever want to go back there, especially if kids were involved. Being broke poisons every aspect of life. You can never relax when you're worrying about where the next paycheque will come from or dreading an unexpected expense. There's always this horrible underlying baseline stress at all times. Who would want that?

Unwilling to date a single dad - I don't think it's unreasonable for a woman not to want to take on someone else's kids. Being a stepmother is a difficult role and being involved in a child's life is a huge responsibility. Not something to take lightly.

University education - Fine, this one is less important, but education strongly correlates with intelligence. Trying to date someone considerably less intelligent rarely ever works out well.

Short man - People who can't help what they find attractive. They just can't. If being short is a dealbreaker, then it's a dealbreaker. I very rarely see men being told they should feel obliged to date obese women. Why is that? Perhaps men are allowed to decide what they find attractive?

I think 'compromise' means less important things - maybe they go out with mates a bit more than you'd like, or have a time-consuming hobby, or leave the loo seat up and never put a new toilet roll on the holder. Not life altering stuff like having children or being broke or not being sexually attractive to you at all.

@cocochanel99

1MillionDollars I honestly don’t know they are avoidant until dating for months and years. They all say they want marriage etc but when it comes to actual progression, they step away. I’m attractive, stable, fun and have a good social life. I am laid back, I don’t pressure etc. My girlfriends are in the same situation so it’s not just me. It’s not like we all go for one particular type of man either. We are professionals in London.

Have a look into why you're missing the signs that they will undoubtedly be giving.

Why are you being so laid back about something so important? If you have a very laid back attitude, that's not going to come across as enthusiasm to drive a relationship forward.

'It's not just me' is quite defensive, but I think the key is in you taking responsibility here for the errors that you are making, rather than wondering why all the men you meet are 'avoidant'. Perhaps they simply don't want what you want, rather than having some sort of pathology?

*Men tend to 'jump on the bandwagon' so to speak when they see their friends around them choosing to settle and when one proposes to their girlfriend, they all shortly follow suit.

My Peter Pan man ex is in his early 40s. Although at the time it didn't really ring any alarm bells, but most of his friends are single. Most of them have never married and seem likely never to. I'm starting to think that this avoidance thing is almost like a 'pack mentality'.

Have any of the guys you've dated had friendship groups like this? Or are their friends mostly in relationships?*

I have lived this- it's gutting

The onus is of course not on the men, but on you @CecilieRose. You have to spot the signs of lack of commitment or incompatibility. These so called avoidant men will also settle down at some point, but maybe not now, so when you see they are resisting commitment, you shouldn't be laid back and move at their pace and on their terms. They just waste your time and give you enough to keep you there, and you think you are moving towards something and building a future, but in reality you are just jogging on the spot. If you keep your eyes open in the first 3-4 months of dating it's actually quite obvious. The thing is, if you are anything like my friends, you overinvest very quickly, you become exclusive after a few dates, you become thrilled to get the GF title, and from then on it's an uphill battle because the man just wanted that.

Unfortunately the market dynamics is such that a successful professional attractive man in mid 30s dating pool is pretty much anyone - most women would be happy to date him. Plus he would probably be happy to date someone with less money or less education. Or much younger. And he has more time. The successful professional attractive woman, however is only willing to date someone "equal", and she has a lot less time. So yes, you have to make compromises if you want to settle down and have children in your limited fertile years. I am not saying it's fair. It sucks actually, and I know many women in the same boat, but I also know that they have their own myth (of believing that having a career, hobbies, house, and fitness makes them a catch, but it just makes them just another single woman dating in a big city)

The point is you can stick to your limiting beliefs if that suits you, or date more aggressively on your own terms, or widen your net, or open your horizons and have a baby by yourself. There is no magic solution and nobody is owed a relationship.

I'm an avoidant woman. An artist. Pretty, funny, intelligent and sexy. But I'm also a really bad deal : poor creative, single mum of one, still married to my ex, don't drive a car, impulsive, blunt, not at all "homely", don't want to look after anyone but happy to be looked after, it's completely normal for me to go AWOL on men I'm dating for days on end (just can't be bothered sometimes, even though I like the person) ... I'm 35 and have had two proposals in the two years past divorce (well, separation). And two offers of having kids with me (I don't want that!! )

My take on it, is that the more "needy" settling types are attracted by my dysfunction somehow. I'm not playing any games though, nor I'm looking to lie to someone; I just can't handle the closeness. It's suffocating. I'd be happy with "companionship" once a week but no one wants that...

From my experience the opposites attract, so if you find yourself with the avoidants, your relationship style must be over to the other side.
Or maybe there really is something in the idea of men wanting a chase and enjoying the idea of being a "provider" (how un-feminist of me & them)

@AnaViaSalamanca

The onus is of course not on the men, but on you *@CecilieRose*. You have to spot the signs of lack of commitment or incompatibility. These so called avoidant men will also settle down at some point, but maybe not now, so when you see they are resisting commitment, you shouldn't be laid back and move at their pace and on their terms. They just waste your time and give you enough to keep you there, and you think you are moving towards something and building a future, but in reality you are just jogging on the spot. If you keep your eyes open in the first 3-4 months of dating it's actually quite obvious. The thing is, if you are anything like my friends, you overinvest very quickly, you become exclusive after a few dates, you become thrilled to get the GF title, and from then on it's an uphill battle because the man just wanted that.

Unfortunately the market dynamics is such that a successful professional attractive man in mid 30s dating pool is pretty much anyone - most women would be happy to date him. Plus he would probably be happy to date someone with less money or less education. Or much younger. And he has more time. The successful professional attractive woman, however is only willing to date someone "equal", and she has a lot less time. So yes, you have to make compromises if you want to settle down and have children in your limited fertile years. I am not saying it's fair. It sucks actually, and I know many women in the same boat, but I also know that they have their own myth (of believing that having a career, hobbies, house, and fitness makes them a catch, but it just makes them just another single woman dating in a big city)

The point is you can stick to your limiting beliefs if that suits you, or date more aggressively on your own terms, or widen your net, or open your horizons and have a baby by yourself. There is no magic solution and nobody is owed a relationship.

It's not having a career, hobbies, etc. that makes them a catch. It's the same things that make anyone a catch - being attractive, a good person, reliable, etc. Women gain maturity as they get older just like men do, and learn things that likely make them better partners. I've met so many men who insist on dating twenty something just because they can, and then whinge about how immature they are, or how they're always broke.

I do see your point, but all of it is a 'man' problem, not a woman problem, IMO. A lot of men are just very shallow and don't value the actual important traits in a partner. I have friends who vent to me about how their girlfriend can't have a deep conversation, or is immature and jealous, checking his phone, etc. and I just think, for God's sake, maybe you should try dating someone your own age and a lot of this would be solved!

A lot of this is also quite specific to British/American/anglo saxon dating culture. There is way less of a concept of women being 'past their sell by dates' in other cultures, even our neighbours like France. I think this stuff you (and most people) accept as 'normal' is actually a weird cultural thing rooted in misogyny. A French friend of mine's husband left her for a 45-year-old woman when he was 33. An Argentinian friend married a woman of 42 when he was 30. People in other cultures seem to value connection and personality over weird arbitrary age stuff. Obviously if people want kids then yes, age is an issue, but it seems to be an issue here even for those who don't.

Look inwards instead of outwards.

I really think it’s a combination of luck and going for a specific type. I dated plenty of avoidants and mid life “left my long term GF/wife for freedom” types (just one date for the obvious red flag types) and had pretty much given up by the time I met my DP.

I had friends tell me I was intolerant for going on one date and rejecting men, but I wasn’t willing to settle when there were immediate signs we weren’t going to be compatible or long-term.

I found dating intensively for short periods followed by a mental health break worked best. Meet quickly, don’t chat too much online, and politely but firmly move on if you know in your gut they aren’t right.

Won’t weed out the future fakers but may save a lot of time for others. Sadly a lot of it is luck and a numbers game.

@CecilieRose
I do see your point, but all of it is a 'man' problem, not a woman problem, IMO. A lot of men are just very shallow and don't value the actual important traits in a partner. I have friends who vent to me about how their girlfriend can't have a deep conversation, or is immature and jealous, checking his phone, etc. and I just think, for God's sake, maybe you should try dating someone your own age and a lot of this would be solved!

Excuse my language, but this is just total bollocks, I’m 50 + and I’m trying to date women my age, and they are not interested, if you have not the right background, right income, right job / title forget it you just get passed by or over looked

People in other cultures seem to value connection and personality over weird arbitrary age stuff.

This is a little ironic given that two posts earlier you were happy to write men off based on career/earnings, parental status and height - none of which affect personality, ie the thing that is key to connection.

I'm not saying anyone should date anyone they don't want to, for whatever reason. But the more red lines you have the smaller your pool of candidates.

The rejection of broke creative men is particularly weird to me - maybe because I've spent a lot of my life in artistic circles where everyone's been broke and/or precarious financially, and no one judges because frankly living a life doing something you enjoy is more important (and makes you a happier, nicer person) than doing something you hate for sacks of money. (I tried dating a few bankers in my 20s... absolute tossers, each and every one.)

It's also weird because if you want a wealthy life then you should be creating that for yourself, not looking for a man to provide it for you. One of the happiest marriages I know is a friend who earned pots of money in her 20s and shacked up with, yes, a broke (but talented, and extremely lovely) artist.

I would never wish to meet any men off some dating sites, it must be like looking through some Argos catalogues, and seeing if there is anything you fancy out there, and then being disappointed when things turn up, and they are not what you expected. Dont people ever meet a person in real life anymore, like in the oldie days.

@gannett

People in other cultures seem to value connection and personality over weird arbitrary age stuff.

This is a little ironic given that two posts earlier you were happy to write men off based on career/earnings, parental status and height - none of which affect personality, ie the thing that is key to connection.

I'm not saying anyone should date anyone they don't want to, for whatever reason. But the more red lines you have the smaller your pool of candidates.

The rejection of broke creative men is particularly weird to me - maybe because I've spent a lot of my life in artistic circles where everyone's been broke and/or precarious financially, and no one judges because frankly living a life doing something you enjoy is more important (and makes you a happier, nicer person) than doing something you hate for sacks of money. (I tried dating a few bankers in my 20s... absolute tossers, each and every one.)

It's also weird because if you want a wealthy life then you should be creating that for yourself, not looking for a man to provide it for you. One of the happiest marriages I know is a friend who earned pots of money in her 20s and shacked up with, yes, a broke (but talented, and extremely lovely) artist.

How do you just not get it? Personality is the key to connection, yes. It doesn't make the things I mentioned arbitrary, particularly the parental status one. Any man who is a good father will rightly play a big role in his children's lives. It vastly changes the relationship with his romantic partner, there are all kinds of minefields and challenges, and most importantly, a lot of women are rightly very cautious of getting involved in children's lives if the relationship may not work out. Also, a lot of women are childfree and don't want their own children, so they definitely aren't prepared to take on someone else's. That you consider this some minor thing and not one of the most important aspects is ludicrous.

I don't know what's 'weird' to you that I no longer go for broke men. As I said, I've lived in poverty and I'm not going back there. And if we're talking about me, I do have a good job, and I'm not looking for a man to 'provide' it. As I have already said, I'm looking for an equal. I've worked very, very hard to be able to do the things that matter to me, including things like nice restaurants, travel and city breaks. I have a partner but if I didn't, I wouldn't want to be with someone who couldn't afford to do those things with me.

It's weird how in your mind there's seemingly no middle ground between 'broke artist' and 'finance wanker'. Have you not had much experience in the real world? I used to think like you in my early twenties, and then I realised there are plenty of good people with good jobs who enjoy their work. I've never dated a banker in my life. I have dated some nice programmers, engineers, and doctors, though.

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@CecilieRose
I do see your point, but all of it is a 'man' problem, not a woman problem, IMO. A lot of men are just very shallow and don't value the actual important traits in a partner. I have friends who vent to me about how their girlfriend can't have a deep conversation, or is immature and jealous, checking his phone, etc. and I just think, for God's sake, maybe you should try dating someone your own age and a lot of this would be solved!

Excuse my language, but this is just total bollocks, I’m 50 + and I’m trying to date women my age, and they are not interested, if you have not the right background, right income, right job / title forget it you just get passed by or over looked[/quote]
So who is interested?

I wasn't talking about your age range, BTW. I'm talking about 30-something men who don't date 30-something women because they want to keep partying and pretending to be young.

People are people. I don’t think that the ones “online” are any less avoidant than the ones in “real life”. Don’t listen to people whore criticising OLD if they’ve not even tried it themselves.
If you actually want to “find” someone rather than wait for someone to cross your path then I really don’t see any other way.

I thought you meant avoidant attachment style but it seems like you meant just avoidant of you? That is something different.

Avoidant "for months and years?". Weed out faster, would be my advice.

I've done a fair bit of internet dating and have met 'avoidant' men but didn't quite know it at the time.

I don't think you necessarily have to make exceptions or settle for single dads etc unless you want to. I had a friend who dated dads with kids but didn't settle down with them. She met someone she knew from schooldays on the train on the way home from work, now married with a baby, she was 40 or just under.

I've met men in the past whom I wish I'd followed up with, in a lively sort of local pub one evening out with friends we ended up dancing with a few men - really relaxed. One evening I was out at a friend's new flat in her communal garden got asked into a flat by group of men, one of whom had just moved in. All the men said they were sick of going out, meeting women who on the whole were looking for certain things or behaving a certain way, it was really relaxed. All of the men listed here could be avoidant but they seemed normal, nice men.

[quote FabulousMrFifty]@CecilieRose
I do see your point, but all of it is a 'man' problem, not a woman problem, IMO. A lot of men are just very shallow and don't value the actual important traits in a partner. I have friends who vent to me about how their girlfriend can't have a deep conversation, or is immature and jealous, checking his phone, etc. and I just think, for God's sake, maybe you should try dating someone your own age and a lot of this would be solved!

Excuse my language, but this is just total bollocks, I’m 50 + and I’m trying to date women my age, and they are not interested, if you have not the right background, right income, right job / title forget it you just get passed by or over looked[/quote]
This sounds like incel nonsense, @FabulousMrFifty.

@Gonnagetgoing it's great meeting people in 'real life' like that. This is why I wish apps just weren't a thing. It puts people off just living their lives and having proper interactions, IMO.

I do think some women become very desperate in their thirties and it shows. I met a friend of a friend at a party a while back and her whole life seemed to revolve around meeting a man. You could almost sense the panic and desperation, and I'm sure it was very offputting to men. She was scanning the room for eligible candidates, looking over people's shoulders to see if she could spot anyone...it was just weird. Her whole mindset was "must settle down quickly before I'm 35". She's now 38 and afaik still single. I do feel like if she'd just chilled out a bit, she'd have fared better. She's attractive, intelligent, good job. I think maybe a lot of men think all women who are single at 30+ are like that and it scares them a bit.

[quote CecilieRose]@Gonnagetgoing it's great meeting people in 'real life' like that. This is why I wish apps just weren't a thing. It puts people off just living their lives and having proper interactions, IMO.

I do think some women become very desperate in their thirties and it shows. I met a friend of a friend at a party a while back and her whole life seemed to revolve around meeting a man. You could almost sense the panic and desperation, and I'm sure it was very offputting to men. She was scanning the room for eligible candidates, looking over people's shoulders to see if she could spot anyone...it was just weird. Her whole mindset was "must settle down quickly before I'm 35". She's now 38 and afaik still single. I do feel like if she'd just chilled out a bit, she'd have fared better. She's attractive, intelligent, good job. I think maybe a lot of men think all women who are single at 30+ are like that and it scares them a bit.[/quote]
I think you get similar with men. A friend of mine with an older child from a previous relationship was dating in her mid- to late 30s and said men were continually asking her the first date whether she wanted more children and frequently vocally taken aback and miffed when she said definitely not. One I remember said she was ‘unnatural’.

@SweetBabyCheeses99

People are people. I don’t think that the ones “online” are any less avoidant than the ones in “real life”. Don’t listen to people whore criticising OLD if they’ve not even tried it themselves. If you actually want to “find” someone rather than wait for someone to cross your path then I really don’t see any other way.

It's more likely that the people you meet online spend more time online than those you meet out doing interesting things with their lives, simply because meeting people out in the world filters out those who don't get out into it. But there's no 100% about it. There are compatible people to meet online, it's just necessary to have your filters and boundaries very firmly in place, because it's harder to get a true sense of a person via a profile than it is via having a chat with them face to face.

You really don't see any other way to find someone than OLD? Seriously? You do realise that human evolution started before the internet, don't you? How do you think people used to 'find someone' before OLD was invented? All that still exists.

Judge people in what they do not what they say. Words are cheap. Don’t ever believe them if the actions around them don’t line up.

DH never wanted to marry, he was absolutely adamant on that. When I did want to marry and he still wanted to be with me he married me within a year and a half of meeting. We are together nearly 20 years.

Look at how their actions line up with your needs and forget the rest. If the actions don’t line up, don’t waste your time and if they do then you are more likely to be compatible.

@TheFoundations it's much harder, though. A lot of people who would have been out and about 20 years ago trying to meet someone are now sitting at home in their bedrooms, swiping on apps. The apps have basically gouged a massive chunk of people out of the dating market. Work from home and covid has made this even worse - even less chance of running into someone in a pub. People understandably are still wary of chatting to strangers, let alone snogging them. People more than ever stick to their own friends/group when they do go to the pub.

I'm very much an 'old school' person but it massively reduces your pool of partners to choose from.