Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Cutting ties with a narcissist

67 replies

newstart2022 · 02/11/2021 09:47

Hi
I am really at rock bottom and I need some advice.
I know what I need to do but it’s making me feel ill.
I have been in a narcissistic relationship for 5 years, it wasn’t always like that and it took a while to notice it.
I hardly see him now but he still has me hanging, we sleep together and it’s amazing and I get hooked again.
He doesn’t speak to me for days and I think he is interested in someone else.
I keep hanging on because I don’t want to feel the pain of him moving on.
Advice please x

OP posts:
PleaseGoDontGoAgain · 15/11/2021 13:22

Not yet sadly, after 15 years of gaslighting I'm still unpicking the mess in my head with therapy.

Nov910 · 15/11/2021 14:01

@KintsugiForever agreed label or not he isn’t treating me very well. I suspect even if his family found out what he’d said to me and spoke to him about how crazy it is he wouldnt take it on board, it’s a very tough cycle.
The problem I’ve got is over 5 years it’s been so far apart with moments that although I see it now it’s hard to wipe out many many good times. I also know (as we could all do) I could sort this very quickly and return to a partially happy place..horrible

KintsugiForever · 15/11/2021 14:02

Therapy does help, but sometimes it's like 2 steps forward and 1 back isn't it? I changed my counsellor and the one I have now is so much better, she is a specialist in dealing with the trauma of NPD relationships, though I didn't fully realise that was what it was until I got out.

KintsugiForever · 15/11/2021 14:08

@Nov910 - I did a practical exercise which helped, not sure if you would find it useful too. I wrote a list of all the horrible/weird/unsettling things he did and it was surprisingly long. I guess I had 'explained away' a lot of things, made excuses for him and so on. Whenever I feel sad or think of the good times, I look at that list and I am reminded. It has helped me hugely.

There are also patterns like:

  • Love bombing
  • history of relationships ending very badly and mentioning this to you
  • Very few 'real' friends
  • fractured family relationships (saying they are the black sheep of the family or misunderstood etc)
  • Sometimes several children with different women
  • Hot & cold behaviour
  • Need to communicate incessantly, then not at all

Not sure if any of that stacks up, but that was my experience (and then some!).

Nov910 · 15/11/2021 14:14

@KintsugiForever thanks yes I’ve done a list. I’m pacing the floor and trying not to cry through moments that pop into my head.

He was very consistent..made some, what I call ‘fake promises’ and strung me along with them. I think because he wanted to be with me and maybe worried he would lose me. On its gone. The silent treatments the worst. I’ve always made good..o can see now I’ll probably never hear from him again because I know I’m not willing.
I didn’t have much info re his last relationship, he has mentioned some bits clarified by family. Doesn’t like to discuss though.
Family issues but again I’ve had minimal chats with him.
Lack of friends a yes.
Likes to be solitary yet can be very sociable and lovely
No children
Likes to have attention yet does give it back to me so???

Sidehustle99 · 15/11/2021 14:23

It will be hard but it will be worth it when months from now you realise you haven't thought of him for weeks.

It normal to feel grief at the end of a relationship. If you stay you will be feeling this grief anyway.

You are his narcissistic supply and he is relaying on you needing there whenever HE chooses.

Be kind to yourself and start prioritising you Thanks

Nov910 · 15/11/2021 15:21

How do you tell the difference between a dismissive avoidant and a narcissist?

Mxflamingnoravera · 15/11/2021 16:00

@Nov910 what is it about avoidants vs narcissists that you keep coming back to? How will it help you to know? Put you first, turn your back on him, whether he a narc or an avoidant, both are recipes for heartbreak.

Nov910 · 15/11/2021 16:04

@Mxflamingnoravera because I guess listening to countless videos it means we’re just not well compatible as opposed to him being intentionally horrible.

lilmishap · 15/11/2021 16:13

He isn't being intentionally horrible, he genuinely doesn't give a shit about you.
He thinks providing occasional sex is nice, you keep letting him think that.

I can't see anything that indicates he believes he's in a relationship with you.

Nov910 · 15/11/2021 19:23

@lilmishap well aside from sex we do a lot together, holidays, family events, days out cook, cinema, etc..I do believe he wants to be in a relationship, he just acts badly at points which I know isn’t acceptable

newstart2022 · 15/11/2021 19:56

@Nov910
You sound like I did a couple of years ago.
It won’t change.
It’s a trauma bond x

OP posts:
Nov910 · 15/11/2021 22:08

@newstart2022 my heart is breaking. I feel so lost. I know I need to tell myself the way he’s being is unreasonable, but the rest of time (majority) is very good.. this hurts

newstart2022 · 15/11/2021 23:07

@Nov910
How long have you been together?
Mine got steadily worse over 5 years.
What I wish I had realised is that none of it it acceptable.

OP posts:
newstart2022 · 15/11/2021 23:14

@Nov910
If you need to google his behaviour or watch videos on it you are answering your own questions.
You have joined a thread about a narcissistic relationship.
Not trying to be harsh , I have spent years trying to unravel his behaviour and every time I thought he had done his worst he stuck the knife in more.
Be careful x

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 16/11/2021 04:49

No he doesn't mean it, every word is a lie. The sorrys, the I love yous it's all lies.

I think it is actually a bit more complex than this. I think that rather than these people necessarily consciously lying when they say they are sorry and make promises about doing better, many of them are actually just driven by unconscious patterns of selfishness and need and fear of abandonment. Maybe there are some absolute psychopaths who quite consciously lie and fake sadness while knowing exactly what they're doing, but I think they are quite rare.

More often – especially with more borderline cases – I think they understand at a low level that they have done something to badly upset you and they don't want you to stay upset because they know that if you stay upset you might abandon them and they don't want that. So they apologise but the whole experience is shallow and quickly forgotten because ALL their feelings are shallow and quickly forgotten. This is one of the keys to understanding all narcissistic / sociopathic / psychopathic behaviour - they literally have less feelings than other people do. And because not having feelings is completely normal to them, they actually don't understand that something is wrong with them.

You know how when something good happens – like someone says something really nice to you, and you feel so happy you actually get a physical buzz in your body that lasts a while? Maybe later in the day you remember the nice thing that person said and you get an echo of that buzz all over again but the echo alone makes you feel good enough that you decide to ring someone you love and say something nice to them because it will make them feel good too? Maybe you could even go for a couple of days having little residual bursts of happiness remembering that compliment? That's how normal people with normal levels of emotions operate.

Narcissists and others in that 'emotionally deadened' category are different. Someone might say that same nice thing to them and for a moment they feel good, but it's more of a detached, muted kind of good, like "Ah, this person recognises my high quality." And that good feeling dissipates quite quickly. If they think of the compliment again later, the memory barely generates any positive feeling in their body at all. But they remember and want the good feeling again, so instead of doing what you did, which was ringing someone to share the good feeling you had with them, they do the opposite. They ring someone and fish for another compliment. They might repeat the compliment they received to see if the new person will echo it or agree. To be clear, they are not necessarily able to recognise what is happening here themselves or explain it 'out loud' in their heads. They are operating more or less automatically. In the same way, after the compliment you received, you probably didn't actually think "I feel so good that I will ring a friend and share this good feeling with them." You just felt good and spontaneously acted to pass that good feeling on to someone else.

So when a narc apologises, what they are mostly doing is loss prevention. They want to prevent a regular source of good feelings (you) from disappearing because that possibility makes them feel anxious (bad feelings show up more strongly for the narcissist than good ones). If you left, their own life would become more sucky due to the absence of regular positive input from you. But they don't apologise because they genuinely understand you are feeling bad and they want you to stop feeling bad. They apologise because THEY have started feeling bad (fear of abandoment) and they know that apologising will stop you from leaving and therefore they will stop feeling afraid. Your actual feelings really don't come into it much at all.

Underneath all the arrogance and selfishness etc, they are actually terribly needy people; they are poorly equipped to deal with a life that requires an understanding of emotion and ability to empathise with others, they are often disorganised and poor at planning, can't save money well due to a tendency to act impulsively, etc. They need other people, because their lives fall to shit when they don't have other people to manage stuff for them. But because they have only gotten this far in life by telling themselves/believing they are very special and exceptional people (or people who have been terribly and unjustifiably mistreated and victimised – in fact, usually both special AND victimised), they find it very hard to accept that actually, they are the cause of all their own problems.

Nov910 · 16/11/2021 10:01

@CheekyHobson this really helped, thank you 🙂

Lemor · 16/11/2021 12:55

The only advice, the only answer in a 'romantic' scenario is No Contact. Start with 6 months NC and take it from there. Eventually it breaks the links you have with them. 5 years is quite a long time, but you will move on and you will heal and grow. You have to be rock solid No Contact though. HG Tudor (a self-confessed narcissist) does some stuff on YouTube about narcissists which is quite good. But, honestly, NC is the only answer. There is nothing more to be said. Like a knife to a boil, it takes courage, but (it is my experience) that you will immediately start to feel relief, and better and free-er.

deaffyduck · 16/11/2021 20:02

@CheekyHobson I'm quiet on MN but reading yours and others posts on this and other threads, so much is falling into place, it makes me feel initially elated to understand and then sick knowing what is coming.

newstart2022 · 16/11/2021 20:23

@deaffyduck
Are you doing

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 16/11/2021 21:07

@deaffyduck Yep, it's a rollercoaster, and everyone's is different.

The two things I have found are most helpful are:

  1. Learning to know, understand (through careful evaluation and reflection) and trust my own feelings, thoughts and perceptions. One of the big issues with disordered or difficult individuals is that they are in the habit of automatically messing with other people's thoughts and feelings (automatic in the sense above that they often don't really recognise that they're doing it).

If you are an empathetic person (most people who get caught up with these folks are!), by which I mean someone who literally feels other people's feelings in their own body, this can be immensely confusing. The mistake empathetic people often make is to blame themselves for the problems the other person is creating – which usually goes hand-in-hand with the fact that the other person also is blaming the empathetic person for the problem.

To give an example, the DP (difficult person) might say something confusing, vague or that could have a double-meaning. The empathetic person feels confused, and asks the DP what they mean. But the DP doesn't really know what they mean. This makes them feel agitated, so they respond in an agitated way. Like, "What do YOU mean, what do I mean? Isn't it perfectly clear? I mean [they repeat the exact thing they said before]."

Now the EP also feels a bit agitated because they've been spoken to rudely and they're no clearer on what the problem is. So they say, trying to stay calm, "Well, I don't understand. It seems like you're saying this, but you could also mean that." Now maybe the DP either sees that their problematic thinking is about to be unveiled, or because of their own lack of empathy or poor thinking skills, they simply can't see the EP's point of view. Soo they escalate the conflict and/or blame the EP. "That's ridiculous. I can't believe you think that. If you're really that stupid, I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to you."

Now the EP is really upset. They see that the DP is upset, they feel those feelings even more strongly themselves, and they want this conflict to go away, so they turn to de-escalation and soothing by rationalising the conflict to themselves and accepting the blame. "Okay, okay, sorry. I guess I must be tired because I can't get my head around this. Can we talk about this later?" The DP, mollified, might say, "Okay fine, but I really don't see what there is to talk about. You should go away and think about whether you want this relationship to work." And the EP, who really DOES want to make the relationship work, often goes away and tells themselves they just have to be MORE understanding, MORE patient, etc. But deep down, they also usually have a small voice saying, "Um. This isn't right. You were in the right here. There's something wrong with that person." But they ignore the voice, saying it's mean or unfair, and carry on trying to fix a problem they didn't create in the first place, and actually don't have any control over. So learning to listen to that small voice without judging it as mean or unfair is the first step in learning to know, understand (through careful evaluation and reflection) and trust your own feelings, thoughts and perceptions.

  1. Truly accepting that people will do what they want to do, and you can't make anyone do something they don't actually want to, including by being very loving towards them. You might have heard the phrase, "You can't love someone out of their problems." It's very true.

If someone regularly treats you in an unloving way, no amount of kindness and forgiveness for the bad ways they've treated you is going to result in them changing, because why would it? They can behave just how they like, and what they get in return is continued kindness and tolerance.

It is only when they are confronted with the direct and unpleasant consequences of treating people badly –ie those people realise it is not good for their own mental and physical health and happiness to stay involved in a close relationship with this person, and leave or significantly distance themselves – that they are ever motivated to change.

That's why it is a healthy choice to love yourself enough to say, "Nope. This is not good enough. If you want me in your life, it's not enough to promise to treat me better, you actually have to treat me better in real life, consistently, and for a long time as a platonic friend or co-parent or family member (or whatever level of relationship you're prepared to maintain with them, if any) before I may be ready to consider returning to a closer partnership with you."

What you will often see, after telling them this, is sincere-seeming promises of something different, a short burst of better treatment (often MUCH better treatment, almost OTT better treatment), which falls off after a few weeks or months when you don't quickly and generously start letting them back into your life or pants or headspace or whatever it is they are after. (Yes, you do need to hold your boundaries and not make any steps of your own towards a closer relationship with them for six months as an absolute minimum).

The realisation after just a few weeks that it was mostly talk and little real change is often very disappointing and hard to accept. It is very tempting to tell yourself "This is hard for them and I need to make allowances" (in fact they will almost certainly tell you this exact thing too). Or to make it about yourself and ask "Why wasn't I enough for them?" If you have these feelings, maybe you do have areas of your self-esteem where you feel deficient and that working on yourself would help, but be clear with yourself that you're doing that for YOURSELF, not because you think you can earn this particular person's approval and love by changing yourself.

This is the time when it is MOST important to hold the line because it is when you are most likely to fall back into old patterns of doing for them what they really need to do for themselves if they want to have better, more healthy relationships.

It is also very challenging and sad to accept that sometimes people do want to do better, but they just don't have what it takes. Finding peace with that acceptance is your own work to do – learning to have the willingness to see things as they really are and act accordingly, rather than to remaining trapped in an unhappy but hopeful fantasy.

newstart2022 · 16/11/2021 22:01

@deaffyduck
Sorry that should have said are you okay x

OP posts:
deaffyduck · 18/11/2021 08:54

@newstart2022 not really, I can't get on here often but will come back when I can.
@CheekyHobson your last message just made perfect sense. I can't tell you how much. Thank you and I'm processing and thinking and processing more.

RedFlagsAllOver · 18/11/2021 08:58

I read this thread this morning and I thought I really need to sort myself out, and get away from the narcissist in my life. It's not even a relationship. We never see each other and Communicaton through whatsapp or the odd phone call. If on the rare occasion we video chat he doesn't seem arsed. I read the part about apologising to keep the peace and then this happens ...

Cutting ties with a narcissist
Cutting ties with a narcissist
RedFlagsAllOver · 18/11/2021 08:59

I've posted wrong way round