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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Heads a mess. Am I abusive?

99 replies

Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 18:36

I've nc for this but have posted before.
Dh and I sperated earlier in the year after another one of his outbursts about what a terrible person I am.
He said a few times he didn't want to go, but I don't think he wanted to give up his home life, not "me" if that makes sense.
We have had a pretty up and down relationship since then. He has made some noise about wanting to work things out but has continued to place all blame at my door, insult me and call me some pretty nasty things.
I have gone round and round in circles trying to explain why I became distant from him and how his words and actions have affected me.
The thing that's getting me is he is more and more frequently telling me what an abusive, controlling, gaslighting and manipulative person I am, particularly if I do something he doesn't like or try to get him to be accountable.
He never acknowledges at all how he has made me feel over the years, just all about what I have done to him.
It's really getting me down.
He is very upset that I didn't invite him on a day out over the weekend with our dc. He rarely has time for us as is always doing other things but as this weekend he was free, wanted to spend it with us.
I have been working hard on my mental health after the last time I let my guard down around him a few weeks ago he really hurt me.
This has resulted again in alot of name calling and using phrases that I have to him, but with him as the one who is feeling that way.
Today he has messaged me to say that my mental torture has affected him so badly that he has contemplated suicide.
I feel absolutely awful that I have made him feel that way.
I have since seen him and he wouldn't even look at me. I have offered him kindness and support but he seems very angry with me, which if he feels abused I guess is understandable.
What do I do now though? Has anyone been through similar?

OP posts:
Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 10:40

Thank you all for your advice. I have not heard from him today. I did message to check on him last night and to offer a video call with the dc this morning but he didn't reply so will give him the space he needs. I'm just worried he will do something silly and it will be my fault for making him feel unwanted when I was really just trying to protect myself and process my own feelings 😥

OP posts:
shedreamer · 19/10/2021 10:58

@CorrBlimeyGG

When a relationship goes wrong, it's not unusual for both parties to accuse each other of abuse. Both will feel justified in their position.

As you're a woman, you'll get 99% of Mumsnet posters telling you that he is the abusive one. But in truth, we don't know, as we don't know his perception/ version of events.

I agree with this - although it does sound like he has used some manipulation to make you feel like you are the "bad" person (which you are not), and yes, his behaviour sounds like gaslighting to me, it is very complex when a relationship falls apart. When there is a toxic dynamic and lots of hurtful things are said, often emotions are running high and both parties feel injured and like they have been abused. I would suggest you could go to Relate for counselling alone or mediation together to look at what's happened, even for yourself to process and work out how this dynamic started and to help you heal. separation sounds like the right way forward.
Sidehustle99 · 19/10/2021 11:50

Please read up on reactive abuse
sentientcounselling.co.uk/2017/05/29/reactive-abuse-abused-abuser/

billy1966 · 19/10/2021 11:52

OP,

Instead of focusing on this abusive man, who has clearly been manipulating and abusing you for years, focus on your children and what life has been like for them.

It is good that he has gone.

Keep him out of your home.

He is not a good man.

It sounds like he has been running rings around you for years.

Step away from his circus.

Flowers
ChargingBuck · 19/10/2021 12:27

I have gone round and round in circles trying to explain why I became distant from him and how his words and actions have affected me.
You need to stop this.
He is never going to accept your point if view, & - hard though it is to feel misunderstood - you have to accept that it no longer matters.
He is your ex. You no longer have to justify anything to him, including your entire self.

He is very upset that I didn't invite him on a day out over the weekend with our dc. He rarely has time for us as is always doing other things but as this weekend he was free, wanted to spend it with us.
There is no longer any "us".
He is your ex. He doesn't get to spend time with you anymore.
When he wants to see the DC, HE takes them out. You have no need to be around for any of his contact time.
He does not get to dictate this to you.
If you do not have contact times set in stone, start working toward this now. Go legal if you need to. He is jerking you around & looking to control you by randomly informing you of when it suits him to deign to see his own kids, & then kicking off when you are not available to fit into the role he has assigned for you.

Today he has messaged me to say that my mental torture has affected him so badly that he has contemplated suicide.
100% 'The Script' beloved of coercive controllers everywhere.
The only response you need give this is "do you need me to ring the police to come & do a welfare check?"
Do NOT engage beyond that.

I have offered him kindness and support but he seems very angry with me, which if he feels abused I guess is understandable.
He doesn't feel abused.
He just feels angry that he can no longer control you under his own roof.
Stop offering kindness & support.
He is your co-parent, & that is all.

I recommend that you buy some co-parenting software, & communicate with him solely on that platform, & ONLY about arrangements for the kids.

TheFoundations · 19/10/2021 12:31

@Isitactuallyme2021

Thank you all for your advice. I have not heard from him today. I did message to check on him last night and to offer a video call with the dc this morning but he didn't reply so will give him the space he needs. I'm just worried he will do something silly and it will be my fault for making him feel unwanted when I was really just trying to protect myself and process my own feelings 😥
Do you really think that you have so much power over him that you can control his decision on whether or not to end his life? Do you really think you could do that by accident, when it isn't even what you want?

He is responsible for himself. Even if you directly ordered him to commit suicide, it still wouldn't be your fault if he did, because he's an adult. If he feels that he's been the victim of abuse, then the healthy response from him would have been to leave a long time ago, before he got so desperate. Except he's not really desperate. He's deliberately and maliciously using suicide threats to control you.

In the same way, you need to be responsible for yourself. If you feel that he (or anybody else in the future) is abusive, you don't stick around to assign blame. You just absent yourself from their life, as much as you can. Preferably altogether.

Why do you think you have such power as to accidentally, and against your own wishes, make someone commit suicide? Can you see how nuts that is? Especially when your behaviour doesn't cause anybody else any significant problems at all. But even if you did have that power, the healthy outcome is the same: you need to stay away from each other.

Beechview · 19/10/2021 12:45

You withdrew in order to protect yourself, not to abuse him. Don’t listen to him twisting the situation.
This dynamic is not healthy for you so keep protecting yourself and keep contact with him to a minimum.
As others have said, you are not responsible for his behaviour. He’s a grown adult and is able to behave however he wants and do whatever he wants.
You, however, need to protect yourself and and your dc from this unhealthy dynamic.

dieblauenStrumpfhosen · 19/10/2021 12:51

Just be careful not to let anyone steam roller over you in here. People are well meaning, but they can be pushy if you don't do things to their schedule. I imagine you have a lot of thoughts racing through your head today. You need to take some time to focus on yourself, how you feel, what you feel your view of the situation is. If you end up going back, don't worry. Just get your energy back together and try again. It will likely take a few times and there's a strong chance he will attempt to guilt you into taking him back once he realises that you won't chase him. Look after yourself first and do what you feel is right first.

I highly recommend reading Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft while you are away from him. That will explain his behaviour to you very clearly.

DFOD · 19/10/2021 13:37

@billy1966

OP,

Instead of focusing on this abusive man, who has clearly been manipulating and abusing you for years, focus on your children and what life has been like for them.

It is good that he has gone.

Keep him out of your home.

He is not a good man.

It sounds like he has been running rings around you for years.

Step away from his circus.

Flowers

I agree with this focus. If you keep this focus you won’t go wrong and will stop going round in circles.

Turn your attention to your DC.

They need it because to date they have been living in an home of conflict and emotional violence. They will have sensed (if not see and heard) the rage, anger, distress between you. They will have absorbed and internalised it and been left confused and scared which will impact their own emotional development through childhood and beyond putting them at risk of behavioural issues and chronic MH issues.

Well done on getting him out of the house physically. Now you need to get him out of the house mentally - because even when he’s not present he is impacting you negatively - he is draining, depressing and preoccupying you negatively - each moment you are in this state is a moment that you cannot be attuned and available for the emotional needs of your DCs. We all have finite energy and time - choose who to spend it on wisely.

To me the relationship looks totally toxic and dysfunctional and the dynamics (no matter who the perpetrator is) have hurt your DC.

They are now in emotional deficit - your job is to detach and defend from him and give all your attention to yourself so that you can restore to be the most stable, attentive role model to your DC -in order to repair the damage and to create a calm and peaceful home for them. You cannot do this with him physically and emotionally goading and dictating your MH.

Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 13:50

@DFOD I have absolutely tried my best to defend my dc from the breakdown of my marriage.

They love their dad and miss him very much when he's not here but we are doing well together.
I just don't know how it came to all this.
It's like once I recognised this behaviour wasn't going to change, I shut him out and didn't know how to fully let him back in.

I feel so awful about making the situation worse on all of us, even him.
I know he doesn't care about my feelings but I know he misses his old life and I think I've made a bad situation worse for him and everyone else involved.

OP posts:
Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 13:52

I just wanted a good marriage where I felt repected and appreciated, he really hates me now.

OP posts:
TheFoundations · 19/10/2021 14:01

It's like once I recognised this behaviour wasn't going to change, I shut him out and didn't know how to fully let him back in

Can you see that this is a very healthy response? In the same way that we instinctively move away from a stranger who randomly starts yelling at us in the street, we move away, emotionally, from those who damage us, emotionally, and who don't have our best interests at heart. Respect yourself for doing this; it's healthy boundaries in action. Your instinct to protect yourself is alive and kicking.

The only question is why is your brain coming in and telling you you're doing it wrong all the time? What example were you set about how adult relationships work, when you were a kid? Were your parents respectful of each other? Did they listen to and respect your feelings?

You've got your inner nature (healthy) and your conditioning (unhealthy) fighting against each other inside you. That's why your head's a mess. You need to find a way to reconcile them; your head needs to say 'well done' to your instinct to stay away from him, and really mean it.

beastlyslumber · 19/10/2021 14:03

Oh OP. I wish you could time travel six months into the future and see your situation with more perspective. You are taking on so much blame and responsibility for this man and the truth is that none of it is your fault. He is not a good partner nor is he a good father. The best thing you can do is take a lot of space - don't communicate except about the kids. Try to focus on yourself instead of him. How do YOU feel? What could you do for yourself that would make you feel good right now? Focus on that and forget about him for a while.

BensonStabler · 19/10/2021 15:27

please look up the youtube channel of Doctor Ramani. She is an incredible professional psychologist who specialises in this type of abusive partner - him not you - (Narcissistic Personality Disorder mostly fits this pattern of abuser and their tactics) She gives amazingly clear and insightful explanations as to why they behave that way. The do’s and don’ts of interacting with them. How to best separate from them and keep it that way. How to protect yourself, What not to fall for, How best to go about co parenting, what bad things to expect from them. She gives you so much warm and sensitive advice, and equips you with many tools to get yourself out of the thick of the initial (FOG) and how to come to terms with what you have been put through, and to gets you to see the REAL reality of the situation and who is actually to blame, how best to move forward. How to heal.

She does fairly short daily videos and it is like actually seeing an expert therapist that you wouldn’t have otherwise found with her skill set, nor afford her. I cannot recommend her videos enough. look up any buzz words you don’t understand like grey rock etc. She covers them all but you may be drawn to certain headlines/titles that resonate with you when you see the video list. There is a lot you can start with if you scroll back to her older posts that explains the terminologies and these personality types.

You will hear from her, and see the many many comments under her videos of others like you going through the same things, you will 100% relate, and come to see these manipulative pathetic creatures for what they really are, and that they are actually predictable all using the same tactics, and by reading other people’s stories and experiences are like reading your own life story you feel less alone, more understood, finally validated. Slowly but surely the penny finally drops, the crazy confusion and self blame clouds will part, and you will see and know for a fact it has all been him, and there is NOTHING that will change him for the better, nothing you could have said or done differently, because all along you were not with someone who has healthy emotions and behaviours.

I hope you read up and research as much as possible, knowledge is definitely power. It would be good to take a diary or notebook and write down all that resonates with you, and the most important and urgently needed tactics and advice for your exact situation where you are, and again for the immediate future in communication with them purely to co parent.

I hope this helps, and that you find ways to heal and cope from the trauma he has and will continue to try and put you through if you let him in even a little. Look out for particularly Hoovering, Grey Rock.

I truly wish you all the best and strength going forward. Listen to your gut instinct, it has served you well enough to protect yourself enough to leave. That is incredible and brave. Stay strong and do not let him suck you back in. Flowers

Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 15:34

@TheFoundations that's really insightful. I didn't have the best example to be honest, but neither did he.

That's why it's been so important to me to be amicable but it doesn't look like it will even be that now given the way he feels about me.
I just wish that after that last blow up he had just apologised, acknowledged how I felt, worked on himself and showed me and the dc that we were a priority for him. That's all I ever wanted. I never wanted this at all.
@beastlyslumber when he left everyone said it would get easier but it just seems to be getting worse. I'm trying to just focus on the dc and meeting their needs but it's really hard. I am feeling the loneliness too as friends and family are all so busy and to be honest, I think they're sick of listening to me.

OP posts:
Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 15:37

@BensonStabler thank you for your kind post. I just can't believe this is what my life has become. I will definitely look that up though.

OP posts:
billy1966 · 19/10/2021 15:42

You aren't doing yourself or your children insisting on try to shoulder the blame for your marriage ending.

That's on him.
And him alone.

All you wanted was repect within your marriage.

That wasn't possible and he chose to leave.

Going around in circles will drive you mad.

Try and calm yourself and take the advice of watching some of the specialists recommended above.

Their insights could really help.

Be kind to yourself and keep posting.Flowers

TheFoundations · 19/10/2021 15:44

That's why it's been so important to me to be amicable but it doesn't look like it will even be that now given the way he feels about me

You're a decent, kind person. You know it, really, with that instinctive part of yourself, don't you? Before your brain kicks is and says 'A-ha! But perhaps you are a git!!' You will have amicable everything with everybody, and probably generally already do (?), if the other person makes it possible. The only time that a decent, kind person will not have 'amicable' is when the other person is introducing unpleasantness to the equation.

See this for what this is: the natural consequence of his abusive behaviour. You aren't making the situation worse; it's a bad situation already, and it's been created by him. I relate it to food poisoning. You can take a perfectly healthy body and put a bad prawn in it. The body isn't then 'making things worse' when it throws up, has diarrhoea, sweats, faints etc, and nor should it feel guilty for doing all these things. They are just natural, knock-on side-effects of introducing poison to a healthy circumstance.

That's what's happening now. He is the prawn. The things you have to do to extricate yourself from your relationship with him are the symptoms of the problem; they are not the problem itself.

EnidFrighten · 19/10/2021 15:50

Ugh, I had this with an ex once. It took a few weeks of him ringing me most nights to tell me how awful I was to figure out that I could either be 1) awful and uncaring or 2) kind and caring enough to listen but it was an impossibility to be uncaring and yet still prepared to listen. So what the fuck was he talking about!

Rejection is hard and it can take you to some dark places, but you don't need to deal with his shit any more.

AuntMasha · 19/10/2021 16:02

Can I just echo BensonStabler and give another recommendation for Dr Ramani’s videos on YouTube. I’ve found her talks on narcissistic abuse invaluable as someone who also went through a toxic relationship (although it was a friendship in my case). It’s as if she shines a light into the darkness of abusive relationships, helping you to regain your sense of self worth and confidence. I can’t recommend her enough.

Angrymum22 · 19/10/2021 16:04

We will never know whether you or your DH are abusers, it is impossible to judge on an online forum. For all we know you could be just another bored keyboard warrior.
That said only you know whether it is abuse. There is plenty of sound advice on this thread and it seems like you are well on the way to separating your life from your DH so well done for taking that step.
Having said all that one of the worst abusers/controllers I have ever come across was a woman. Her first husband was both emotionally and physically abused, the last straw for him was when she through a tv at him from an upstairs window. Her next long term partner also ended up both physically and mentally abused. She was often quite open about her behaviour believing that they deserved it when they were not at her Beck and call 24/7. Her current husband is placid and toes the line, when his DS (from first marriage) became a father the DH had to ask permission to go and visit, but because it clashed with the weekly family get together for Sunday lunch he wasn't allowed.
He made the mistake of going round to help his DS with some DIY without getting permission and she was screaming down the phone at him to come straight home.
She just didn’t seem to understand that her behaviour was unreasonable, it never crossed her mind that the level of control was not normal.

TheFoundations · 19/10/2021 16:08

@Angrymum22

Do you think OP is questioning whether a woman can be an abuser? It sounds like you're trying to say 'Yup, could definitely be you, OP, although none of us can tell for sure, from here...'

Angrymum22 · 19/10/2021 16:15

Yes. The women I have come across who were most definitely abusers had no idea that their behaviour was abusive. In fact they felt that their partners failure to “jump to” was in itself a form of abuse. And god help them if the partner tried to point out that their behaviour was not acceptable.

beastlyslumber · 19/10/2021 16:26

Big fan of Dr Ramani here too. Thirding that recommendation!

Lana07 · 19/10/2021 17:06

First of all, rule number 1 for happy relations is

  1. Respectful language and NO name-calling.

He broke it and tried to lower your self-esteem and confidence.

  1. No blame. Instead a healthy adult discussion of the situation.