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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Heads a mess. Am I abusive?

99 replies

Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 18:36

I've nc for this but have posted before.
Dh and I sperated earlier in the year after another one of his outbursts about what a terrible person I am.
He said a few times he didn't want to go, but I don't think he wanted to give up his home life, not "me" if that makes sense.
We have had a pretty up and down relationship since then. He has made some noise about wanting to work things out but has continued to place all blame at my door, insult me and call me some pretty nasty things.
I have gone round and round in circles trying to explain why I became distant from him and how his words and actions have affected me.
The thing that's getting me is he is more and more frequently telling me what an abusive, controlling, gaslighting and manipulative person I am, particularly if I do something he doesn't like or try to get him to be accountable.
He never acknowledges at all how he has made me feel over the years, just all about what I have done to him.
It's really getting me down.
He is very upset that I didn't invite him on a day out over the weekend with our dc. He rarely has time for us as is always doing other things but as this weekend he was free, wanted to spend it with us.
I have been working hard on my mental health after the last time I let my guard down around him a few weeks ago he really hurt me.
This has resulted again in alot of name calling and using phrases that I have to him, but with him as the one who is feeling that way.
Today he has messaged me to say that my mental torture has affected him so badly that he has contemplated suicide.
I feel absolutely awful that I have made him feel that way.
I have since seen him and he wouldn't even look at me. I have offered him kindness and support but he seems very angry with me, which if he feels abused I guess is understandable.
What do I do now though? Has anyone been through similar?

OP posts:
Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 21:16

We do have children at at the moment he has to see them at home so it's been difficult to navigate.
My counsellor did suggest recently that his behaviour could escalate as I was putting boundaries in place.

It's possible it could be that, but I just feel terrible that I have made him feel so low.
I did tell him that I had been in a very bad place myself with it all a few weeks ago, but he doesn't seem bothered about that at all.
He never acknowledges my feelings, it's a big part of why we seperated. He thinks it's ok that he can say whatever he likes about me, but if I reply or defend myself I'm crazy, need help, abusive etc.
I just wanted us to be on good terms for the children and I never wanted us to get to this place, but I've possibly muddied the waters through my own confused feelings.

OP posts:
Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 21:19

It's funny you say punish me @beastlyslumber as he talks alot about me punishing him, controlling him, wanting him to beg for forgiveness, but I've just wanted to be heard and understood. It makes me wonder if that's how his head works, that he pre plans his next move as such or whether it's genuine emotion on his part.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 18/10/2021 21:23

OP please try to understand that you have not made him feel low or sad. Stop listening to him, please. He knows that what he says hurts, upsets and worries you and that is why he says it. Not because he feels it or means it but because he wants you to hurt you and draw you back under his control. It is calculated and angry behaviour. He wants to punish you. Try to see this man for who he is. It will make your life much easier.

YNK · 18/10/2021 21:24

@Isitactuallyme2021

I think maybe I have caused some of this by being hopeful that he would change and we could work things out. I just wanted him to respect me and see me as an equal, maybe even consider me generally but he just doesn't. But that's possibly why he feels I'm abusive in that I have tried to remain amicable. Every time I've let him in though he has hurt me. I guess that probably makes me look like I'm blowing hot and cold. I do try and be honest about my feelings, but he doesn't listen as he's too busy making everything my fault. I just really hope he's ok and I really am sorry that I have made him feel this way.
Stop it! Just stop it! You are not his mother, therapist and most definitely not his saviour. He has to take responsibility for nurturing himself if he wants to be happy and fulfilled. You are a scapegoat for his inadequacy and he will never let you off the hook otherwise he would have to accept responsibility.

Get as far away from him as you can as fast as you can if you value your sanity.

beastlyslumber · 18/10/2021 21:26

@Isitactuallyme2021

It's funny you say punish me *@beastlyslumber* as he talks alot about me punishing him, controlling him, wanting him to beg for forgiveness, but I've just wanted to be heard and understood. It makes me wonder if that's how his head works, that he pre plans his next move as such or whether it's genuine emotion on his part.
Yes, well spotted. That is how his mind works. Whatever he accuses you of is projection - it's all the things he does to you.

He probably isn't capable of much genuine emotion beyond anger. Maybe you should get a little bit more angry OP.

dramalessllama · 18/10/2021 21:31

He sounds exactly like my exH. I was expected to carry the emotional burden in our relationship. He had severe anxiety issues and it seemed like everything I did/said/felt caused him great anxiety which lead to the rages, gaslighting, blameshifting, manipulation,...

What a bunch of crap. It was all a control tactic and for a long time it worked. In the end, I was the only one trying to fix us - he refused to seek individual counseling because, as he said to my therapist, "I didn't cause this. I don't need therapy."

You are not the cause of his suicidal thoughts. He is 100% responsible for his own feelings and actions and by shifting the blame onto you, it absolves him of having to deal with his own dysfunction. How convenient and cowardly.

What about you and YOUR feelings? When have they ever been considered by him? He is extremely selfish and self centered and only cares about himself. It's time for you to put yourself - your wants and your needs FIRST! And it will be incredibly hard, because you've been conditioned to worry about how things affect him. Who's looking out for you???

You probably feel like your head is in a fog. That is what gaslighting does to you. You can't trust your own judgement anymore and question your own reality. You will need to emotionally detach from him and not let his words affect you anymore. Easier said than done, but it's imperative that you learn to do this. You've already started to do this (by pulling away) and he didn't like it one bit, which is why he guilt tripped you and made false accusations. He didn't like it because he felt you were taking back some of your control and he NEEDS to be able to control you completely!

When you next see your therapist, ask them about Borderline Personality Disorders specifically Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They can't diagnose him (because he's not their client) but they can tell you if his actions are in alignment with those traits.

Good luck!

Fallagain · 18/10/2021 21:32

@Isitactuallyme2021

We do have children at at the moment he has to see them at home so it's been difficult to navigate. My counsellor did suggest recently that his behaviour could escalate as I was putting boundaries in place. It's possible it could be that, but I just feel terrible that I have made him feel so low. I did tell him that I had been in a very bad place myself with it all a few weeks ago, but he doesn't seem bothered about that at all. He never acknowledges my feelings, it's a big part of why we seperated. He thinks it's ok that he can say whatever he likes about me, but if I reply or defend myself I'm crazy, need help, abusive etc. I just wanted us to be on good terms for the children and I never wanted us to get to this place, but I've possibly muddied the waters through my own confused feelings.
Ask your counsellor advice but my gut instinct would be to try and keep all conversations short and factual about the kids. If he tries to discuss your relationship just say that all in the past now there is no point discussing it and don’t be drawn into it further.
Outfoxedbyrabbits · 18/10/2021 21:32

Let me check if I've understood this correctly. He says you are emotionally abusive - because you withdrew from him in response to poor behaviour on his part!? No OP, that doesn't make you abusive. It does mean he is DARVOing you (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender). He sounds like a classic abuser to me. You desperately need to stop engaging with him. All you're doing is giving him opportunities to further mess with your head.

Unfortunately you cannot have the amicable coparenting relationship with him that you wish for - because that is not what he wants. He wants to continue abusing you. Stop giving him opportunities to do so. You do not have to have ANY contact with him other than that relating to arrangements for the children. Handover can be done through a third party. Does he have a legal right to enter your home? If not, do not allow him to. Get him out of your head.

PussInBin20 · 18/10/2021 21:33

I think it’s time to fully separate. It doesn’t sound like a good relationship and you say he doesn’t take on board your feelings or point of view, so how can things improve?

I certainly would not accept being name called - it’s no wonder you withdraw.

He sounds very manipulative and wants everything on his terms. Not much of a partnership really.

I think your mental health would improve without him tbh. Life is too short for all this. Be happy.

LunaAndHerMoonDragons · 18/10/2021 21:33

@Isitactuallyme2021

No he's saying he lashed out when we were together because I had distanced myself. He crossed some lines in terms of behaviour and I must admit I did pull back emotionally. That's the part he sees as abusive.
So it's abusive now to react negatively to being hurt emotionally? He's prepared to say anything to go on getting what he wants. At best your relationship is toxic, but it does sound like he's at least gaslighting you, if not abusive. Anything can be turned around on you this way. He's gaslighting you here that having boundaries is abusive, it's not.

stbxh does this. I once told him, honestly, that I was scared to be around him because of his behaviour, according to him it was disgusting that I tried to hurt him that way. I was in the wrong for telling him his it's not ok to make your partner feel scared and I was supposed to just get over it because he needed support and sex.

pickingdaisies · 18/10/2021 21:35

Please. Please. Stop trying to understand him. Stop trying to explain to him. He's not interested in how you feel. He's not. He just wants his easy life back, and you back under his thumb.
He did this to himself and to you. And to the DC. Don't let him see the DC at yours. Don't let him in the door. Don't talk or communicate except about kids. And before you say that he has to see them at yours, no he doesn't. There are cafes, parks, cinemas. If you don't keep those boundaries in place, he will wade right in and pull you under.

Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 21:51

Thank you for all of your advice. It has made for some difficult reading but helped me gain some perspective back whilst my head has been spinning.
If he has said it to gain a reaction it has had the desired affect as I have been thinking about apologising to him for causing all of this upset in the first place.
That's what I usually do and it seems to be a default response for me to frantically try and fix things.

He was very cold with me earlier so maybe he will not want to be around now anyway which will help with reduced contact.

OP posts:
dieblauenStrumpfhosen · 18/10/2021 21:53

Wow. Yes, I actually recognise all of that. I was also called all of those things. I remember at one point feeling like I was going absolutely crazy from it.

He had and never will have any respect for me. He doesn't want to see my point of view and he isn't actually capable of accepting that I have a point of view.

It was very challenging to leave, but I've never been happier. It took a while and a few attempts, but I no longer care about what he thinks about me. I still get emails from him (which I ignore) trying to contact me saying that we both got angry at each other etc. I can tell from that he hasn't changed. It was never ever my fault, despite him saying the opposite and I had every right to be listened to even when I was angry. And anger wasn't the problem. It was his need to tear me down that was the problem. You can be angry and still talk to each other with respect.

And it wasn't just the outbursts either. I would feel so tense and upset in between episodes that I went almost mute, apart from constantly checking that he wasn't in a bad mood. I had nothing I trusted to say to him that he wouldn't throw back in my face later. And that was his fault.

This isn't your fault. You are not responsible for his behaviour. Only he is.

TheFoundations · 18/10/2021 21:57

Does anybody else tell you these things (you are an abuser etc) or is it something that only he does?

If it's just him, it's fairly clear where the problem is, unless you think that everyone else in your life is unwittingly falling for your oh-so-clever manipulations and controlling techniques..?

Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 22:00

@TheFoundations a friend reminded me of that recently, that I don't have these issues with anybody else in my life and nobody shares the same opinion of me.
I raised it with him once and he said it's because they just don't know me well enough or spend enough time with me.
I don't think I am a bad person as such, but I have pushed him away as I have felt hurt and resentful over lots of things that have built up over the years, but his frequently telling me how awful I am really has taken it's toll on me.

OP posts:
GreenFingersWouldBeHandy · 18/10/2021 22:01

He was very cold with me earlier so maybe he will not want to be around now anyway which will help with reduced contact

Sorry but it sounds as though you're still missing the point (or hoping he will come back/change).

YOU need to tell him to absolutely sling his hook and refuse any engagement apart from practical arrangements with the kids. For your own mental health.

GreenFingersWouldBeHandy · 18/10/2021 22:03

You DO NOT owe him any apologies for his own shitty behaviour.

Please recognise this.

It sounds like he has brainwashed you and I really think you need to talk to your counsellor about this sooner rather than later.

Hopeful22 · 18/10/2021 22:08

@Isitactuallyme2021
I could have written your posts , word . For. Word.
I'm literally living the same life.
I have desperately trying to greyrock him, disassociate from him, ignore him. Only talk quickly about the kids. But he speaks to me with such contempt, such hostility that tonight I had it out with him, again, about the way he is. But again, everything is my fault. I'm.abusive, I'm.cintrolling etc etc ... only I know in my head and from great advice from mumsnet people here , that its not my fault. It is the hardest thing ever. Honestly it drags every bit of your soul out of you. What they make us try and believe.
I love your post @dieblauenStrumpfhosen
The last bit, walking on eggshells constantly, never knowing what will set him off and what I have to deal with ...
Its comforting yet upsetting knowing that so many people go through this ...

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 18/10/2021 22:12

Yes, that jumped out at me too. It's irrelevant what he wants - you are in control of contact between the two of you that you allow. You do not need to convince him that he has acted badly - that would be an impossible task because in his head everything is your fault. But honestly, that really doesn't matter. You have the power to ignore him and his wants/needs now. You can (and should) refuse to engage in any way with him about anything other than matters pertaining to the children.

Please do seek support for yourself anywhere and everywhere that you can get it because I'm afraid he is unlikely to stop trying to make you feel guilty and responsible for his feelings/the breakdown of your relationship for some time. My ex still sends me fairly regular guilt tripping messages 5 years later. It took me years to completely stop being affected by them.

Isitactuallyme2021 · 18/10/2021 22:18

I think I am having a hard time letting go of a failed marriage. We've been together a long time and I have tried really hard to make it work.
I'm also finding it hard to accept that sadly, this is who he sees me as. An abusive person that's made his life miserable when all I wanted to be was a good wife and a good mam.
He will definitely shut me off now he's said his piece again.
It's going to be awful to watch him move on when I wanted so desperately for him to do better for our family.

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 18/10/2021 22:57

What you need here is some high-resolution thinking.

His accusations, blame toward you etc all rely on a vagueness around the actual details of what he's saying.

Imagine a low-res picture of indistinct blobs kind of mashed together. What's going on? Is it... two people? Is one attacking the other? Are they fighting? Having sex? When the image lacks details, it's really hard to say what's going on, you can only make guesses, and those guesses will reflect your own mindset. So you see two people cuddling, and he sees two people fighting. When you turn up the resolution (reveal more details), the clarity increases, and you can say with more confidence what's actually happening.

It's funny you say punish me @beastlyslumber as he talks alot about me punishing him, controlling him, wanting him to beg for forgiveness, but I've just wanted to be heard and understood. It makes me wonder if that's how his head works, that he pre plans his next move as such or whether it's genuine emotion on his part.

Both you and your husband lack clarity. You're both operating on vague feelings and assumptions that are generated by and reflect your own upbringing, experiences, and mindsets. It's quite possible that you're operating in a generally healthy way and he's operating in a generally unhealthy way, but it's hard for you to nail exactly why, because you're coming from fundamentally different perspectives and the details of where you differ are fuzzy.

So yeah, what he's doing probably "feels" genuine to him, but that doesn't mean it's right or healthy. To get clarity here, you have to turn up the resolution, refuse to accept vagueness and insist on trying to reach an honest agreement on details and facts.

When he tells you 'you want me to beg for forgiveness'*, what exactly is true about this statement and what is not?

Is it true that you want him to understand how he's hurt you and acknowledge that to you in a way that you feel is honest and reflective, or is it true that you want him to grovel and humiliate himself for hurting you and promise to do anything you want? There's a massive difference between those two interpretations.

If you feel the first way and say that, but he refuses to believe you and insists that you feel the latter, that's a real problem because he is telling you what you think.

It should go without saying that the only person who really, truly knows what you think is YOU. In the same way, the only person who really knows what he thinks is him. You need to be willing to openly address the possibility that he really believes you will never forgive him until he gives up all his power in the relationship.

If you honestly know you don't want him to grovel, but he keeps saying you do and keeps being angry at you for it, that might be how he truly feels, but he can't make it reality just by repeating it.

Actually, that's not strictly true – if he rages and unfairly blames you and denigrates you long enough, you eventually might become hurt and angry enough to feel that the only way he truly could ever win back your affections is by totally grovelling and throwing himself on your mercy! This is what it means when we say someone is creating a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.

To sum up, if you can self-reflect, evaluate and express your own position honestly and openly but find that he can or will absolutely not accept your truth, you must accept that having a successful relationship with him is impossible.

SilentPanic · 19/10/2021 01:13

No-one here knows the truth about the dynamics of your relationship. But it does sound like you're not good for one another and should keep away from each other.

Isitactuallyme2021 · 19/10/2021 05:30

@CheekyHobson I definitely didn't want him to grovel. I did want him to acknowledge the hurt he had caused and conmit to real change though.

I spent a really long time pushing my feelings aside and it got to the point I just couldn't do it anymore.
I tried repeatedly to address it with him send tell him what I needed from him in terms of respect and support. In truth, I felt very lonely in my marriage for a long time. He never put any effort in to me or the dc but had plenty of energy to pursue his own interests or do things for himself.
I know all the reasons I wanted to seperate but it took me quite a while and a lot of nastiness from him to actually realise I couldn't take any more. I wasn't even worthy of the most basic effort from him and that hurt. To have him now label me as all of these horrible things is a very bitter pill to swallow and has made me really question myself, my behaviour and my decisions.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 19/10/2021 06:23

To have him now label me as all of these horrible things is a very bitter pill to swallow and has made me really question myself, my behaviour and my decisions.

To some extent, it's healthy to question yourself and see your own responsibility in relationships with others. However -- in a situation where you are being abused, it is important to be very clear that you are not responsible for making him abuse you. You are not a perfect person, because no one is, and I'm sure there are things you wish you'd done differently. But nothing you ever did or said could have made him behave differently - he abused you because that's what he wanted and chose to do. He is continuing to abuse you now through his gaslighting, DARVO, and silent treatment.

Your strategy now has to be to protect yourself from his abuse. That means drawing a clear and completely impermeable boundary around yourself. E.g. we only communicate through email. I do not respond to suicide threats. I switch off from any talk of blame or anger. We communicate only when necessary. Etc. Look up the 'grey rock' technique, OP. This is a way of making your communication bland, emotionless and boring. It gives him nothing to feed off and is very effective at helping you distance yourself and maintain a boundary.

I think once you have distanced yourself a bit more, you'll find your thinking about all this becomes much clearer, and things which have been confusing and difficult will resolve themselves in your mind quite quickly. The more involved you are with him, the more your emotions are directed towards him, the more you entertain his suggestions, the more confusing and upsetting it will all be. That FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) will keep swirling around until you make the decision to step out of it so you can see clearly.

pickingdaisies · 19/10/2021 10:16

OP don't be fooled into thinking that because he's gone cold and distant he's stepping back. As soon as he thinks you aren't trying to get him back, he'll change his strategy and try to reel you back in. Probably by making you feel guilty or afraid for his mental health again. Don't fall for it, don't respond to it.

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