new trans friend

[flipflopmop]

This is not a hate thread, I am actually asking specifically for advice here.

I've been trying to put myself out there a bit and meet new people. I have met a trans man through another acquaintance and we seem to get on really well and then hit these huge awkward stumbling blocks. I'm wondering if it's my fault basically.

This person is very into using specific terms for their gender, sexuality and romantic life and defining all of that very specifically. Fine.

I personally wouldn't chose to describe myself with these terms. I'm not even sure why, it just feels a bit... not me. If other people want to then good for them. Specifically when it comes to sexuality I have the view (for me) that I'm with who I'm with and that's that.

So because I am with a man this person assumed I was totally straight. Rather than waffle on, here is an abridgement of the awkward conversation (not word for word)

Well, you're straight so you wouldn't understand.
I don't think I ever said that. I used to have a girlfriend.
Oh let me guess in university going through an experimenting phase.
It was after uni. We were engaged.
But, you never said anything about this!
She broke my heart and treated me like shite, it's not something I feel the need to talk about years later.

They then made the point that I should really refer to myself as bisexual or pansexual. I made the point that I never said I was straight to start with. I just said, I have a boyfriend.

It's not something I hide but I don't think banging on about serious exs when you have a partner is really on. Even if I was single, it was a horrid break up, I wouldn't be keen to talk about it really.

The other thing is that they are very keen on describing their gender very exactly. That's fine! I just don't feel the need to. I have what other people have told me is a very male personality and often don't make myself look overly feminine, although I sometimes do. I've also been told this trans man finds that uncomfortable and would rather I defined myself according to the language they use to describe themselves.

I wasn't told this directly, again it was roundabout but I'm trying to condense.

I do like this person and enjoy their company. I just don't want to use these definitions. Personally I think all imposed gender roles are a load of crap and your sexuality is who you fall in love with. I didn't SAY that out of sensitivity to their differing view, I'm just starting to feel a bit like this promising friendship is floundering now.

You sound very kind. He sounds very self centred - HE finds how you want to describe yourself or not as uncomfortable? You have to fit yourself into words he wants to use so HE can be comfortable about it and presumably refer to him in his choice of words too? Why doesn’t he think your opinion matters? Why doesn’t it matter what makes you comfortable? Why don’t you have the same rights as he has to define yourself? I find it hard to see how you can be friends with someone with that ‘you are lesser and will conform to what I want’ attitude.

Friendship is meant to be easy and uncomplicated. If your new friend is allowed to describe themself however they want, then surely to God you should be allowed to do the same?? They sound tiresome and annoying (and the 'putting words in your mouth' convo you reported in your first post would really piss me off too).

Can't they listen to you and respect your experience, or does everything have to be about them??

And what dos this mean: I have what other people have told me is a very male personality??

It's interesting that as society has become far more accepting and tolerant of different sexualities and for a little while had a phase of men and women loosening the rigid rules surrounding gender, there is suddenly pushback on that.

Like you, OP, I'm not really interested in labelling myself. It all seems unnecessary for the most part.

Perhaps people with a more fragile sense of self are reassured by applying labels? It's a very human tendency. But trying to foist them on others is not okay.

@thelastgoldeneagle Maybe OP is brilliant at parallel parking?

Sounds like a total nutter. Avoid.

It’s all about them isn’t it? I don’t think I could be arsed with someone that dictating or selfish tbh.

I have what other people have told me is a very male personality and often don't make myself look overly feminine, although I sometimes do. I've also been told this trans man finds that uncomfortable and would rather I defined myself according to the language they use to describe themselves.

Your friend finds your personality uncomfortable? Why be friends then? This person sounds rude and narrow minded, I wouldn't keep up the friendship.

Maybe now you've had that conversation it will all settle down? It might be that he's used to this stuff all being up front but maybe he'll see that it doesn't have to be.

I think I'd arrange to go to something you do together next time you meet, even if it's just a movie or something. It might help to move things on.

@crosshatching - @thelastgoldeneagle Maybe OP is brilliant at parallel parking?

Of course - that must be it! Or perhaps the OP is good at maths or mending cars...

I don't understand this new expectation that you should know everyone's sexuality. Seems quite personal to be honest, not something that should be forced out of you by someone demanding it and dictating the language used.

Is this a bit like people wanting to know your star sign so that they can then put you in a personality box based on their belief system, when you think the whole thing is nonsense? In Japan they want to know your blood group, because they think certain blood types have certain personalities .

I find anything like that irritating, and would find it hard to have a close friendship with someone who insisted on trying to define me according to their ideas about people and the world that I do not relate to.

It sounds tedious and annoying, I'd feel the same as you. The irony perhaps is those that moan about society treating x and y differently are sometimes the ones most keen for labels and validation whilst others don't seek to define themselves. I'd be open and honest and say that if this is all that is going to be spoken about you can't be arsed (more diplomatically perhaps), its one thing to support someone and another to have to provide constant validation.

Gosh this person sounds like hard work, OP. Are they very young?
It's reminding me a bit of my SIL except in her case it's dietary habits and labels. Frankly I wouldn't choose to hang out with her if she wasn't my DH's sister.

Surely the only conversation to be had with them is along the lines of “As your friend I’m fully happy to respect and support you by recognising the terms you prefer for you, and naturally I know that as my friend you will be fully happy to respect and support me by recognising my wishes for myself’.

If they argue with this then I’d suggest there is no mutual respectful friendship to be had.

@thelastgoldeneagle with the male personality thing, I have no idea. It's just something that people say to me quite a bit. It seems to have played a part in this situation too.

There are a couple of things I have noticed I suppose. Often in group conversations men (not this friend) talk over women or react badly if women express an opinion strongly when they are doing the same. Very stereotypical things like that and I will say, actually I hadn't finished or no I disagree with you etc. Maybe it's just the way that I speak and what people read into that, like I call my bf "mate" and stuff like that.

I do actually understand the problem to an extent. My friend has tried very hard to take on society's expectation of what a man is in order to be accepted as that gender. For me it has no meaning (will sound like a broken record but I 100% get that it does for other people and I don't say that to them). I guess I'm not a good fit for where they're at in life right now.

@Nightbringer Yeah, saying someone is going through a phase in regards to love/partners is just awful. It trivialises so many important things in just a few words.

@Sexytimeusername Yes, they/them he/him is what they prefer.

I couldn't be friends with someone who told me what kind of language I should use to describe myself. That's controlling behaviour, not friendship.

Your sexuality is really none of their business. Id find them incredibly intrusive and i couldn't be friends with someone who couldn't accept me as i am, as this person doesn't seem able to accept you.

@Ijustreallywantacat I do know this for sure, I'm just cutting down a long story.

To answer a couple of questions, we are both 30s. I am a bit older but not hugely. There is loads of good stuff about them and we get on great, until this comes up somehow.

I think I've probably already laboured this point but I have no problem with people knowing I'm not straight I just don't think you should push a conversation about breakups, that should be led by the breakup-ee.

This friend is very much about telling people their entire relationship history, which is their choice.

When all that happened with my gf a specific friend was there for me. She would never mention all that now. I mean how would that work, "hey you remember when you came round my house in tears because you'd been brutally dumped?"

I suppose I mentioned it first but I was specifically responding to an incorrect statement. I was really trying to say, oh hang on, no I'm not straight I had a gf at one point. I think the awkwardness kicked in when they were trying to ask me more or less if we broke up because my sexuality changed and I responded that no we broke up because it went to shit. I thought that was enough really but they kind of wanted to keep talking about it when I thought I was being clear that I felt I'd said enough.

I think they were just convinced it had something to do with sexuality because of my now bf and kept asking for details when I'd already said it ended badly. I get that because they've had a journey to go on with sexuality that would interest them.

@ravenmum I was really asking if I should get over myself and use these terms, especially because I don't really have a strong reason not to. I just don't think it fits for me.

I think the advice here is talk openly about this problem or back away. Unfortunately I think talking about this would not be good for them because they're at a place where they still feel quite unstable in their identity. I don't intend to never see them again or anything, maybe down the line it will be a better time.

@exexpat I did not know that about Japan!

They can't dictate to you how you define or categorise yourself, or even that you have to define or categorise yourself.

They can ask that you describe them the way they ask you to but it is absolutely not their choice to put you in a box of their choice.