new trans friend

[flipflopmop]

This is not a hate thread, I am actually asking specifically for advice here.

I've been trying to put myself out there a bit and meet new people. I have met a trans man through another acquaintance and we seem to get on really well and then hit these huge awkward stumbling blocks. I'm wondering if it's my fault basically.

This person is very into using specific terms for their gender, sexuality and romantic life and defining all of that very specifically. Fine.

I personally wouldn't chose to describe myself with these terms. I'm not even sure why, it just feels a bit... not me. If other people want to then good for them. Specifically when it comes to sexuality I have the view (for me) that I'm with who I'm with and that's that.

So because I am with a man this person assumed I was totally straight. Rather than waffle on, here is an abridgement of the awkward conversation (not word for word)

Well, you're straight so you wouldn't understand.
I don't think I ever said that. I used to have a girlfriend.
Oh let me guess in university going through an experimenting phase.
It was after uni. We were engaged.
But, you never said anything about this!
She broke my heart and treated me like shite, it's not something I feel the need to talk about years later.

They then made the point that I should really refer to myself as bisexual or pansexual. I made the point that I never said I was straight to start with. I just said, I have a boyfriend.

It's not something I hide but I don't think banging on about serious exs when you have a partner is really on. Even if I was single, it was a horrid break up, I wouldn't be keen to talk about it really.

The other thing is that they are very keen on describing their gender very exactly. That's fine! I just don't feel the need to. I have what other people have told me is a very male personality and often don't make myself look overly feminine, although I sometimes do. I've also been told this trans man finds that uncomfortable and would rather I defined myself according to the language they use to describe themselves.

I wasn't told this directly, again it was roundabout but I'm trying to condense.

I do like this person and enjoy their company. I just don't want to use these definitions. Personally I think all imposed gender roles are a load of crap and your sexuality is who you fall in love with. I didn't SAY that out of sensitivity to their differing view, I'm just starting to feel a bit like this promising friendship is floundering now.

It's up to you how you describe yourself, not them. They don't sound like the kind of friend I'd want, tbh.

So he hasn't actually said to you that he's uncomfortable then? It's just gossip? Wait til you hear it from the horse's mouth. If you like each other, I don't see why it's not something you can get past. Bit of an awkward conversation yes, but that happens at some point with lots of friendships doesn't it. I wouldn't overthnk it. Call your self, or rather don't call yourself whatever you like.

Yeah, welcome to the world of the genderwoo where the only thing that matters is that you very narrowly define yourself from a strict set of approved labels when, in the real world, no one else gives a shit.

Oh let me guess in university going through an experimenting phase.

This comment alone would have ended the 'friendship' for me.

If they are as caught up in the genderworld as much as it appears they are, they simply won't understand that you have no wish to strictly define yourself or communicate with others in that way.

Do they not have anything.more interesting to talk about?

I don't want to upset them and I obviously have more than once

If the way you experience yourself and understand yourself and express yourself 'upsets' someone else, then they are not your friend, are they?

The reason you upset this person is because not being 100% on board with it all is 'invalidating', 'denying their existence', 'literal violence' and akin to murdering transpeople.

It's real, if you're not with us you're against us stuff and their is no room for agreeing to disagree.

I couldn't be friends with someone who was so intolerant of my existence, tbh with you.

Wtf put them in charge of your life and language???

I would back away from them totally.

Sounds like this person's problems are with themself, not with you? What advice do you want - are you asking how to approach them, or whether it is worth trying to be friends with them?
If you say what you think, it normally sorts itself out somehow.

This does not sound like a fun or rewarding friendship.

I would find that exhausting. My dd is 12 and a couple of her friends are non binary and trans. They. Talk. About. Nothing. Else. I have a vegan friend who is similar, no matter what the vonversation is, she directs it to veganism. They sound like a prize bore to me op.

It's totally up to both of you how to describe yourself, and not something to impose on or dictate to anyone else. I think it sounds like your friend could learn a lot from you, but if he's not willing to do so then it may not be worth your while trying.

he would be dead
What a load of manipulative rubbish.

I couldn’t be friends with someone that narcissistic and rude.

@Pemmican

Well, he's certainly nailed male entitlement and mansplaining.

I'd let this friendship wither and die if I were you.

Yes, it never fails to astonish me that many vociferous TRAs don't recognise that their attempts to curtail the rights of actual women are the embodiment of male privilege.

OP, I don't think this friendship has legs -- this person is already trying to force definitions on you, and police your language.

It’s a difficult conversation to have but it seems it is important for this person to have parts of their identity recognised by others and these labels are important for that to them. For many people though (me included) I don’t need others to recognise how I identify and don’t want to confine my identity to labels - I don’t like the boxes and labels and think it just creates barriers. You are with who you are with, love who you love and are who you are and that is enough. If I had a friend like this I would make the effort to give them the security they need but they don’t need to be comfortable with my identity, it’s nothing to do with them. I wouldn’t change how you refer to yourself.

This isn't a friend. This a a self absorbed tosser using you to prop up their own extremely fragile sense of self.

Walk away, and be prepared to ignore the tantrum that will inevitably arise.

They sound like a right pain in the arse.
The comment about you being with a woman being "just a phase" "at university" (when it clearly wasn't) was really rude and dismissive.
How is it ok for this friend to say this to you?
You have to use the labels they want you to use not only about them but about yourself too.
I thought the whole point of this was that we could be whoever we want to be and love whoever we want to, whenever we want to and for as long as we want to, without being discriminated against.

If some people want to label themselves then they are free to do so and if others do not wish to do so then they don't need to, but everyone deserves the same amount of respect.

I think I wouldn't make much of an effort to keep this person as a friend to be honest.

This person sounds like hard work, I couldn't be bothered really. There will be drama down the line no doubt.

And the whole "just a phase" thing...what if you said that their trans stuff was just a phase? Would that be acceptable?

It seems to me that perhaps they have been in a very vulnerable state, and discovering trans ideology and discoveeing/validating a trans identity for themselves has given them more feelings of security - BUT the ideology is not really that secure and the fact you don't subscribe is taking away their feelings of comfort. Which is why they are perceiving your wordd about yourself, as a slight or attack on them. Its very unfortunate, and sad.

I think you either need to be very patient with them and help them understand (or wait until they learn for themselves) how to find security and validation in themselves, rather than in the labels and beliefs used by people around them. Or if you haven't got the patience for that, make your excuses and back quietly away.

I've also been told this trans man finds that uncomfortable and would rather I defined myself according to the language they use to describe themselves

This person needs to learn that his rights end where other people's begin. He is free to define himself however he wants but how dare he tell you how to define yourself.

An overbearing dickhead is an overbearing dickhead, whether trans, in, pan or whatever label they chose.

This isn't a trans thing, it's a personality thing. They, nor anyone gets to tell you or anyone else how you should be defining themselves, or not & as Trans, that's something they should know better than anyone else!

The suggestion that you should label yourself as “gender non-conforming” just because you don’t fit their narrow expectations of how a woman should dress and present herself is so unbelievably offensive! You’re a woman - why should you need to define yourself by which cliches of femininity you happen to reject?! You sound incredibly patient and tolerant, and your approach to your own identity sounds unfashionably healthy!

@SingingInTheShitHouse

An overbearing dickhead is an overbearing dickhead, whether trans, in, pan or whatever label they chose.

This isn't a trans thing, it's a personality thing. They, nor anyone gets to tell you or anyone else how you should be defining themselves, or not & as Trans, that's something they should know better than anyone else!

I wrote out a really long answer but this says it better. He is basically mansplaining your sexuality/gender to you. (I know women can do this too). He could have been doing this with veganism, video games, repairing cars - its just that in this case his thing is gender identity rather than (e.g.) why Amstrad games are much better than the ones you used to play.

To be fair, I am friends with people who have this tendency and I still value the friendship - but I put them in place if they start getting weirdly competitive about their chosen field of interest. If I didn't feel able to do this, I wouldn't want to continue the friendship.

I ended a friendship with a transman when they insisted I was not allowed to refer to myself as a "mother" and said instead i should use the the term "birthing parent". People can define themselves however they want. I used their preferred pronouns and didn't tell them they were actually a woman. They didn't give me the same respect.

As PPs have said he does sound very overbearing.

Personally I would say that if you respect his gender descriptions, identity etc than he should also be respecting yours.

If he is unable to do that then the friendship really isn't promising at all.