Getting EXh to agree childcare arrangements when I travel - for teenagers!

[Walkingwounded]

Divorced covert narcissistic, extremely controlling ex 2 years ago after years of emotional abuse. Was just a shell when I left but getting stronger.

Usually DS (14) spends 5 nights with me, 2 with EXH. But I have to travel for work sometimes- this week for example. On those occasions, EXH insists that DS stays with him, even though DS doesn’t want to.

This time I resisted it, since DS wanted to be with his grandparents on the nights that he would usually be with me. I fixed this up. Told EXh what was happening, stressing that this was what DS wanted. EXh livid and abusive texts followed.

He says that he is going to ‘question DS closely about this incident’ when he sees him this week. I know what this means. Pressure, emotional blackmail, etc. DS already has therapy for anxiety given the years of coercive control.

So my question is: What do I do? Would a legal order help clarify that DS wishes should come first while I am away? Or is there another way I can get EXH to see sense? It seems mad to be in this position with a 14 yo but I know how manipulative and controlling EXh can be, and I just want to take the pressure off DS, so he knows that he doesn’t have to do to EXH if I have to travel.

Thankyou.

Wouldn't it be easier to just not tell him?

He will find out anyway and go even more mad, which will result in more pressure on DS.

Is the contact arrangement legal or informal? Because how you arrange childcare for your child during your court-mandated time as the resident parent is not for your ex to decide.

More importantly, does ds want to see Dad overnight, ever? Because a court will listen to his input.

With an abuser, I would go down the legal route. You won't make him see sense or your ds' welfare if all he sees is control.

Does DS' therapist have any useful suggestions?

You're giving him control.take it away from him, none of his business. It's the time your son is with you. He has no say whatsoever in that. If your son wants to stay with grandparents then that's what you do. Don't tell him and explain to your son not to tell him. Thats the only way to deal with a narcissist. Your son is old enough to know that his father's behaviour is unacceptable.

To be honest if your son has to have therapy because of seeing his dad, then he's suffering emotional harm and I would be stopping contact and letting him go to court to get a proper order.

I'd definitely be asking sons therapist for useful input about this because they will have the ability to go through this with DS and help him with strategies etc

I'd also be asking DS whether he would maybe find it helpful to have this 'discussion' with his D with RL support present ? e.g he could talk to his D on the phone on loudspeaker with someone else there for support ?

At 14, your DS is old enough to have his views /wants/needs taken into account, and I think it's time his D was told that, in no uncertain terms ! His D needs to realize that his DS will only continue to want to see him if he's not bullied and coerced into doing things he doesn't want to, and if he continues to try to bully you both, then he's really got to be prepared to lose you both !

@Walkingwounded

He will find out anyway and go even more mad, which will result in more pressure on DS.

How will he find out? Who tells him things?

You are divorced

Stop over sharing and telling your exh information you don't need to tell him about your own whereabouts.

If you weren't travelling for work and your DS decided he wanted to go and stay over at his grandparents, then why would his father need to know?

There is no reason.

Therefore don't tell him when you are travelling for work.

Just ensure your DS goes to his father the 2 days that have been agreed regardless of whether it is you or the grandparents dropping him off.

DS is 14. He doesn't have to see his dad at all if he doesn't want to. I agree with PP. Who is telling his dad anything about your work or Ds staying with his GPs? You shouldn't need to speak to your ex at all unless it is an emergency.

Thanks so much to you all. Just finished work. In answer:

The agreement is informal. The dispute is because when we were together, EXH cared for ( well in the loosest sense) DS when I travelled. He does not think that this arrangement should change.

Additionally, he considers that Sunday night is ‘his’ night with DS, even though in practice DS always spends it here.

DS tells his dad about staying with grandparents. Wouldn’t it be wrong to ask him to keep this a secret?

I get that I am giving EXH too much control. The problem I have is that EXh is convinced I am preventing DS from seeing him by sending him to grandparents. It doesn’t matter what DS tells him about it being his own preference, he hears that I have prevented the visit. I just cannot make him hear otherwise.

I’ll definitely work with his therapist on strategies to support him. But would it be mad to request a legal arrangement for when I travel for a 14 year old? Could I even get one, when EXH has parental responsibility?

I need to think about how I prevent EXH from thinking that he will have DS when I have to travel.

Actually ( sorry thinking this through as I write)

Maybe a single message saying: In future, when I travel, you will have DS on the usual nights. Sunday nights he will not be with you. I will not be communicating with you again on this.

And that’s it. What do you think?

Worth a try. What if he then badgers DS again though?

You stop telling him.

"What happened prior to separation is not relevant now we are not together" "how I organise my time with DS is my own business" on repeat. Literally repeat the same thing everytime.

But do be aware DS will get the backlash and he needs to be totally on board with "give it a rest dad, here is here and there is there can we just enjoy our time together" on repeat, everytime.

If DS is not ok with this you're better just letting him go over to ex's when you travel and saving DS the hassle.

No you arent doing any wrong. You do not have to notify exH of your movements. He has no right to know. Deal with it only if he kicks up a stink "how I organise my time with DS is my own business".

My son refuses to see his father when he gets like this the more his dad pushes him the more ds refuses to go he has to back right off with me "playing mediator" to get him to return to see his dad there are some family mediator around

He absolutely will badger DS again and again. He’s a narcissist and it’s all about winning.

But DS is clear he doesn’t want to go. It seems wrong that he then has to put up with emotional blackmail etc from Ex for not going.

Maybe it comes down to DS being able to withstand it. That’s why I was wondering if legal route would be best.

The phrase ‘what happened prior to separation is not relevant now’ is really helpful thank you

Your DS is old enough to decide to end contact if he wants to. I don’t think his father sounds like a someone who should have much contact with a child.

Ultimately if you don't go the legal route then ds will need to do it himself my ds does he just refuses to go he is nearly the same size as me so I can hardly force him to go

Yes he’s really awful (but in his head is superdad).

Ok. So plan is: 1. Reinforce to DS that it’s his choice and he will need to communicate this to dad 2. Send msg to EXh saying that previous arrangements not relevant now, when I travel he will have DS same 2 nights as currently 3. Call solicitor and see if ther’s anything I can do 4. Work w DS therapist to support him.

Thanks so much to you all. 15 years of emotional abuse & gaslighting has left me not thinking clearly sometimes.

We are in a similar situation but DC is slightly older than yours. Sometimes they are prepared to stand up and state what they want. Other times they try to appease.

I did look long and hard at the court route a couple of years ago. I felt it wasnt worth it. I couldnt guarantee the quality of solicitor - most now only want to discuss mediation; my ex would have fought it so even if I represented myself it would have been a stressful time; and I also know from experience that a family court judge can make daft decisions so there was no guarantee of success.

So now I parent fairly and firmly with lots of options designed to help my DC grow and mature and they love being here in that environment. Ex remains isolated and controlling.

Having some stock phrases can make a real difference. I used to send it the first time with polite niceties and please and thank you then the next time without those than the next with just the key point. It put ex off arguing.

You need to rephrase the question with DS and take Ex out the equation. Instead to doing what you're doing now, where you are essentially still asking your ex's permission for how you manage your sons care you give your DS the choice. You will no longer be giving ExH any advance notice. If DS really wants to stay at his grandmother's then yes he needs to shut down ex's questioning. If it's less hassle to stay with Ex (and let's face it this may not be the hill you DS wants to die on however much he sats he wants to stay with GP) then you're cool with that but you will still not be notifying Ex in advance. DS can tell him he's decided to come to stay Sunday, but Ex is not entitled to any involvement in your movements. Any further questioning he repeats the line above and you role play that line together. Even if DS chooses to take the easy option that is then his choice to do so. Teaching him how to vote with his feet, even if he is not willing to yet, is a valuable lesson.

Send msg to EXh saying that previous arrangements not relevant now, when I travel he will have DS same 2 nights as currently 3
No dont do this. It is not his business

Your post reminds me of myself years ago. Like you I had an abusive ex with a strong penchant for controlling/ coercive behavior.

The agreement is informal. The dispute is because when we were together, EXH cared for ( well in the loosest sense) DS when I travelled. He does not think that this arrangement should change.

When I started a sentence with the words ''ex wants'... my lawyer would interrupt me and say ''I don't give a fuck what ex wants''.

Additionally, he considers that Sunday night is ‘his’ night with DS, even though in practice DS always spends it here.

See above advice from my lawyer - took me years to take it but it made all the difference when I did.

DS tells his dad about staying with grandparents. Wouldn’t it be wrong to ask him to keep this a secret?

You're not asking him to not tell his Father, he is choosing to. This is something best for him to explore with his therapist. It's interesting he does when his Father reacts this way.

I get that I am giving EXH too much control. The problem I have is that EXh is convinced I am preventing DS from seeing him by sending him to grandparents. It doesn’t matter what DS tells him about it being his own preference, he hears that I have prevented the visit. I just cannot make him hear otherwise.

He doesn't care what anything thinks and there is nothing you can say that will alter his view. This is about control, nothing more. You need to tell him how it is going to be and inform your son (i.e. you will stay with GP when I travel). Then refuse to discuss the topic again ( that will be hard, but again answer a point once only). A court is likely to be reluctant to make an order for a 14 year old.. From bitter experience, I can tell you an order won't change this behavior either. He'll just find a different issue to pick on. All you can do is tell him how it is going to be and disengage. No matter what you do, he will continue to behave this way as it's not about your travel or your DS staying with GP - he just wants control.

Your son's therapist needs to help him find his voice and decide what conversations he wants to have (and doesn't want to have) with his Father. The most crucial thing here is that he navigate his own relationship with his Father, voice his own needs to his Father and learn to stand up to him.

That’s so helpful spongedog thank you. Was your EXh prepared to accept the kids not going?

Yes caramel latte I can see now that I am giving EX too much information about my movements. I can als see the value in stock phrases. ‘ give it a rest dad I don’t want to talk about it any more.’ ‘ this is what I want dad.’ Etc.

I need to change the dynamic don’t I.