Getting EXh to agree childcare arrangements when I travel - for teenagers!

[Walkingwounded]

Divorced covert narcissistic, extremely controlling ex 2 years ago after years of emotional abuse. Was just a shell when I left but getting stronger.

Usually DS (14) spends 5 nights with me, 2 with EXH. But I have to travel for work sometimes- this week for example. On those occasions, EXH insists that DS stays with him, even though DS doesn’t want to.

This time I resisted it, since DS wanted to be with his grandparents on the nights that he would usually be with me. I fixed this up. Told EXh what was happening, stressing that this was what DS wanted. EXh livid and abusive texts followed.

He says that he is going to ‘question DS closely about this incident’ when he sees him this week. I know what this means. Pressure, emotional blackmail, etc. DS already has therapy for anxiety given the years of coercive control.

So my question is: What do I do? Would a legal order help clarify that DS wishes should come first while I am away? Or is there another way I can get EXH to see sense? It seems mad to be in this position with a 14 yo but I know how manipulative and controlling EXh can be, and I just want to take the pressure off DS, so he knows that he doesn’t have to do to EXH if I have to travel.

Thankyou.

Pinkyxx that is really interesting that a court order might not be granted/ won’t change anything.

So I should just email ex with how it is going to be and wait for the fallout?

Yes!!

Before you tell him anything stop and think, is this something I have a legal obligation to tell ex, is this something that I would choose to tell ex. If its neither don't tell him!

this is what I want dad
Not so good as it sets your son up in direct opposition to their dad wishes which is a tough place to be when they are your dad and however shitty they are you do still love them. It opens them up to "But why do you want that", "that's not what you told me" "your only saying that because your mum told you to". You want stock phrases that dont necessarily challenge Ex's authority directly but assert DS' right to feel comfortable in his father's presence. This will be way easier for DS to deliver than a direct challenge to his dads perception of events.

It also allows you DS to push the blame onto you by implication. Yes that may be a little unfair on you but your DS is still the one who has to deal with your ex at close quarters.

@spongedog, very similar situation and wise advice. My dc make a decision on a case by case basis depending on how strongly they feel about being with him vs how much they fear his reaction. Interestingly they believe that by 16 they will feel happier to stand up to their Dad.

I agree about court, it's unpredictable as Judges often seem to appease the aggressive parent as they tend to believe there must be fault on both sides "why would a dad demand contact unless it's being prevented"

yes to change the dynamic not yes to emailing him beforehand and waiting for the telling off like a naughty school child.

You have done nothing wrong, whatever happens your DS is safe, your ex has no legal right to know---> you dont have to tell him or ask permission

@Walkingwounded If I were you I'd say no more. You've already stated your position (he wants to stay with GP when I travel). Repeating it just gives it more power and invites another response. Your DS is choosing to tell his Father, therefore the only thing I'd do is be clear with your DS that you don't mind where he stays and you've communicated HIS choice (not yours). Going forwards he should tell his Father himself what he wants.

For us we have an order in place, it is very prescriptive and aimed to limit ex's control of my & DCs life. I thought I'd finally be free! I was wrong: my life was nothing but a series of debates like the one you're describing.. all with the aim of controlling what I do / DC does. I've spent hours explaining to ex to avoid the interrogations / pressure on DC ( which happened anyway). Looking back, my being piggy in the middle only made it worse. Now she's older, I don't get into these kind of dialogues - if she doesn't want to stay with her Father when he believes he's entitled to more time, then she needs to state this to him not rely on me to do so. I don't mind one way or the other. My focus is supporting her to think through her choice and empowering her to speak up. It's a very slow process, and one I wish I'd started long ago. DC is starting to slowly feel some control over HER life.

You won't be able to get a court order around this. This is a matter of discussing with DS how you are both going to have boundaries going forward with dad and why. Then stop telling him things he doesn't need to know. It's time your DS started protecting himself better from his dad sadly, you need to help him do that.

Block ex from yours and ds's phone. Get a cheap payg. Ds can let his df know when he will be there... No need to inform him when he won't.. Put the phone away after ds has text him.
At 12 and 14 my ds's went nc with their df.. Even though the court order was in his favour..
Yabu to allow this bullying against both of you to continue..

Does your DS still want to stay with him at all?

Maybe you need to take the upper hand.
Dear ex, I know you wish DS wanted to stay with you, but he is almost 16 and his wishes need to come first.
Your pushing your son away from you with your attitude and in only a few years, neither of us will be the person who decides where he goes.
You need to think long and hard as to what kind of relationship you have with him ,while you still have time to see him.

Does your son actually want to see his dad at all? If he's as anxious as you say and toot ex is as controlling and horrible as he sounds, I would just stop contact altogether.

He does love his dad and wants to see him but only without the pressure. And only 2 nights per week.

Caramel latte that is great advice Thankyou. I have told DS to say ‘this is what I want dad’ but as you point it out, I can see how it would set him up for comeback and debate. ExH just does not give up, he goes on and on and on.

What stock phrase can I use to help DS assert his right to be comfortable in dad’s presence? ‘This isn’t making me feel good dad and I want to enjoy our time together’ sort of thing?

I know we are both being bullied but after 15 yrs of coercive control you don’t always think straight. But I am finding my power now and once I have the strategy in place I am going to speak up. This is helping me so much, Thankyou more than I can say.

It depends what you are after achieving and how much risk there is. When we were having to do this DD was younger and there was the risk of violence. (We also had some very problematic family court rulings) I would be worried that if DS openly challenges your ex too much the risk to him could grow,(but that may well be the useless dusting down of my own fears and experiences presented as advice)

So "I want to enjoy our time together" flatters and doesn't challenge what ex believes to be the case which makes it relatively safe. "This isnt making me feel good" emphasises that your DS has his own needs and perspectives are different from ex. If DS is comfortable doing that then it's a good that he is learning to assert his needs and wishes but it is a riskier strategy as it challenges whether ExH is right and his right to control the situation. "Here is here and there is there" is othering, its allowing DS to be compliant there (which he may need to be) but asserts your right to handle things your way in your location. It's a subtler form of challenge which may be more tolerated but it still is setting out your boundaries. "I get what you are saying but theres not a lot I can do about it, it's not my decision to make/I'm here either ways" might be another good one for DS to have up his sleeve

But I am finding my power now

I dont think this happens overnight or that we always get it right. It's the work of (several) lifetimes. Dont be too hard on yourself

The courts consider child arrangement orders in respect of what's in the best interest of the children. They would normally favour maintaining the status quo with contact. And as you say that in the past your son has always gone to his dad's when you've been working away, that would be a factor. The court would also likely decide that it's better for a child to be with a willing non resident parent than to stay with grandparents.

However, at the age your son is, they'll put far more emphasis onto his wishes, and what he wants in terms of contact. So if he says he doesn't want to go to his dad's while you're away then it's highly unlikely the court would order that, especially with actively involved grandparents providing a perfectly reasonable alternative.

But do also try and look at it from your ex's POV - he already feels like he's being deprived of a relationship with his son, and it's a massive kick in the teeth that he's going to see less of him. But if that's genuinely your son's wish, then the lad really needs to have that conversation with him and tell him forthright. It's inevitable that kids with warring separated parents end up feeling like a they're stuck in the middle and they're forced to take a side in it. His dad really needs to back off a bit and respect his son's decision, or he'll end up pushing him away totally.

Also, if a 14 year old's anxiety is really being caused by an abusive father, then is it appropriate that they have any residential contact at all? Seems a bit odd that the lad needs therapy because of a parent's behaviour, but he still want's to stay there a couple of nights a week. Definitely get the therapist's opinion on that.

Thanks so much to you both. Caramellatte that is massively helpful and I will suggest to DS that those phrases might help.

Thanks also for the legal insight altmember. In do realise that the legal route is a risky one.

DS therapy is for anxiety. He has grown up in a massively controlling household but still loves his dad and wants to see him. He is still learning to recognise what is healthy and unhealthy behaviour, since control has been his norm since birth.

It’s 4.30 am here and I can’t sleep! The strain of this is ridiculous. Feel much better for having a plan though.

No court order would be made at your dc's age... A waste of money trying imo.

@Brollywasntneededafterall

No court order would be made at your dc's age... A waste of money trying imo.

The application wouldn't even be heard. It would have to be sorted out at the mediation stage. It's not a good idea to try mediation with an abusive man, the OP and her son need to protect themselves and maintain boundaries.

@Brollywasntneededafterall

No court order would be made at your dc's age... A waste of money trying imo.

I understand that about new orders. How about asking the court to void/waive existing orders? I have 2 years to run on mine and would like them gone - ex is already in major breach of a couple of parts of one (with my post-event agreement). And they are significantly out of date. I am not prepared to hire a solicitor so would litigate (yet again) in person!

Any thoughts welcome.

Exh had residency of my ds 14. Shared of ds 12..
They both packed up and left while he was out.
He never so much as text me!!
Never heard from his solicitor either..