Have you forgiven when you don't hold it against them but you still reel and hurt inside?

[Dandyli]

One for Christians to I guess, in addition to non Christians.

Only just discovered the stately homes thread. I've got a lifetime of rewiring to do.

I can't take my mother any more. God I need her but she's never been emotionally available and is becoming worse each time we meet. Just had my first child and it's so hard, but I'm realising just how strong I am. If I can parent a baby I should be able to parent my inner child to, that's what's keeping me afloat at the moment.

Anyway, I'm also Christian and not a good one but it helps me try to better myself at least and try to be the best I can be even though I fail regularly. A big part of being Christian is forgiveness.

So my question is, have I forgiven her (mother) if I don't hold my hurt against her, give her a fresh slate each time we meet yet I still feel the pain of the emotional abuse she has subjected me to? I plan on committing to reducing contact but not going NC. It should be easyish ASAP we live hours apart.

Im not a Christian so if this is not relevant then ignore, but I don’t think forgiveness means taking pain over and over again and just letting it go. You’re taking steps to reduce her opportunity to cause you pain which sounds healthy so maybe also allow yourself some time to heal from the deep wounds you’ve suffered as well?

As I said, I am not a Christian, but it seems to me that God’s grace also extends to allowing healing and part of that is to understand and accept you’ve been hurt. It’s clearly important to you to do the right thing by forgiveness so I think that should include forgiving yourself and that includes feeling bad or angry - which is a natural response to being hurt by the one person you would have hoped would protect, love and cherish you. I’m sorry you didn’t get that.

I am a Christian. I have forgiven but I have also accepted now (after years and years of trying on my side) our relationship will never be a healthy one when we see each other regularly. For me, this means in order to have a healthy relationship, I limit contact and keep things superficial. We live a plane-ride apart and so have contact via WhatsApp or phone. I never divulge personal problems, just talk about light things, and honestly? It works.

I have had to let go of what I wanted to have in our relationship, that of a close mother-daughter bond, because she would never be capable of it, and accept what we do have, which is, admittedly, not what I desire but rather what she is capable of.

I think that should include forgiving yourself and that includes feeling bad or angry @LastGirlSanding

Thank you for this. I do beat myself up and have a Catholic guilt complex even though I'm not Catholic anymore 😂

@teleskopregel sorry to hear about your relationship to. I think you're right in coming to an understanding and acceptance of what she is and is not capable of. I am starting to think she's not 100% responsible for her behaviour and that she may well be quite heavily on the spectrum of ASD/AS and I think even I have some very mild symptoms of AS/ASD like sensory overload at times.

For me compassion is a more helpful approach. It’s less polarised than forgiveness.

If we start with a compassionate approach we can start to understand a bit about them and their capacity and limitations of being a parent / having a healthy reciprocal and respectful relationship.

This might explain how they are but it doesn’t excuse bad behaviour - that always comes back to us to have better boundaries and to state consequences calmly and act on them calmly.

Our job is to ensure the next generation has a better experience and we need to model that.

that always comes back to us to have better boundaries and to state consequences calmly and act on them calmly Yes I completely agree but wow it's so hard when a forked tongue pierces you in the heart. I've been throwing my toys out of the pram instantly since giving birth with regards to my mother and the things she says. I keep forgetting about choices to. I choose how to react and how to to feel but I never give myself time to acknowledge that I have a choice and I just retaliate.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you feel this more intensely since having your first child - it’s likely a protective behaviour. Your body is telling you not to let this toxicity pollute your child or your experience of motherhood.

Your boundaries need to change and be reset now that you have a child to nurture. You need your finite emotional energy to be positive and resilient and directed to your baby. You don’t need it drained and squandered on a futile relationship with someone who has limited capacity to change and brings negativity to your life.

Maybe step back and step up to decide what those boundaries need to look like for you and your new family which is not going to be shadowed by negativity.

@DFOD thank you ❤️

My understanding of forgiveness is that it means no longer demanding an accounting/retribution/punishment for a wrong done to you.

However, it doesn't mean that you have to pretend that there are no consequences arising from that wrong. In your case, the consequences might be the pain you continue to feel, or perhaps your very understandable need to reduce contact with the person who has wronged you.

All the very best to you!

@minley76 thank you.

That's a good take on forgiveness, I like it :)

I guess part of me is soul searching in a way. Surely if I still feel the pain, I've not forgiven because maybe forgiveness is actually coming to terms with something?

Something someone told me about forgiveness really helped me with issues with my mum:

Just because you forgive, it doesn't mean it didn't happen - it absolutely did
It doesn't mean they were right - they weren't
You don't even have to tell them they are forgiven - it's not about them, it's about you

The option of not forgiving means you hold resentment, anger, hate, fury, bitterness inside you
You know you are not that person - so you choose to let it go for the good of yourself

For me, as a Christian, this meant a conscious decision to hand that burden over to God for him to deal with. It's not for me to judge and Jesus gives me the strength to move on

Holding a grudge is like swallowing poison to hurt someone else - it doesn't work

It's not easy, but wow it feels good!
I will be praying for you

I found this book very helpful

www.amazon.co.uk/Forgiving-Not-Jeanne-Safer/dp/0380794713?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Coming from a Christian background too, I found the whole thing very knotty. You're supposed to forgive but what if they do it again and again and again? you end up dragged down. Were you really supposed to keep taking it and taking it, given that the other person wasn't going to change? Forgiving is 'healing', we're told, but I never saw that I felt much better for forgiving, nor did the other person care at all.

This book discusses all those things. It helped me quite a bit, not necessarily giving me all the answers that suited me, but it did provide some guidance when I was floundering.

Christianity can be pretty difficult, specially the old fashioned view that you turn the other cheek and forgive everything. It's a great way to get knocked down and walked over and Jesus himself seemed to stand up to bullies just fine.

I think it's drummed into us so much that forgiving is a kind and loving thing to do but it isn't always kind and loving to ourselves.

I don't forgive my attacker, I make peace with the fact I have rebuilt my life and am happy and healthy now. I didn't need to forgive him to do that because he didn't deserve my forgiveness.

I guess that's where the religious element comes in - I grew up Catholic (now atheist) and we were told consistently to ask for and to give forgiveness but it's very confusing to be told that god forgives but in 'real life' be continually guilt tripped and punished for perceived transgressions.

That's where faith comes in I suppose and while other people were able to live with the cognitive dissonance required to some extent in every faith, I chose to put myself first.

Because in order to be a happy, healthy (as possible - allowing for my illness), functioning member of society, I had to be selfish for a long chunk of time. Putting myself and my recovery first and actually finding real power and strength in saying actually I don't have to forgive someone who so heinously hurt me - they don't deserve it.

There is a way to move past pain, for me at least, without ticking the forgiveness box. And I think that is sometimes overlooked or minimised by phrases like 'holding a grudge'. I don't 'hold a grudge' against my rapist. I simply do not believe he is worthy of my forgiveness because he did something unforgivable. So I choose not to forgive and while I cannot forget, I have filled my life with other things that make the pain of that thing no longer all consuming, if that makes sense?

Probably rambling and may not make sense but I think we (especially those of us brought up in a religious family / school) place too much importance on being expected to forgive unforgivable things.

@youvegottenminuteslynn so sorry to hear what you've suffered, that really is unforgivable. thank you so much for sharing. I totally agree with everything you've mentioned Xx

My mother's transgressions are thankfully not in the unforgivable category. They are just harsh hurtful, thoughtless words and mannerisms that happen far too frequently to help maintain a decent relationship.

Recent ones include :
Don't have another (baby)... She is knows I want two and is insinuating we couldn't cope
I'm fat
I've always been fat actually and only lost it for my wedding (not true at all, I've always been a healthy weight but did pile on the pounds in pregnancy for a variety of reasons which included depression)
I'm too loud with my baby
I'm horrible to everyone (I replied that "no, actually only in response to you, have you not noticed?")

Long running ones :
I'm ungrateful
I've been spoiled
I don't know how lucky I am
I need to lighten up
No one likes me
No wonder I've got no friends etc

Usual emotional abusive chatter

She has never once in my life initiated a hug. And everything is always my fault /doing.

She hasn't got an empathetic bone in her cold 72 year old body.

[quote Dandyli]@minley76 thank you.

That's a good take on forgiveness, I like it :)

I guess part of me is soul searching in a way. Surely if I still feel the pain, I've not forgiven because maybe forgiveness is actually coming to terms with something?[/quote]
Coming to terms can only be done though if you allow yourself to feel whatever you feel including hurt and anger. Feelings aren't Bering, they are appropriate to the situation.

@EducatingArti true. I'm lucky now that I can have a but of me time once baby's in bed. I've been bottling everything up since the day she was born.

I don't know what to do for the best. We're meant to visit soon for a week but I've just got a gut feeling I shouldn't. I miss where I grew up, I miss my immediate family who still live there. I'd like to get away from here to but it'll just be a crappy week won't it.

She’s not a nice person Why does she deserve your forgiveness? She repeatedly says things that aren’t nice to wind you up. She tries to hurt you. Have you ever asked her why she does that? What did she say?

Honestly I think I’d get counselling and work through it all with a counsellor. It will make you more able to deal with her bs. And I’d not allow my dc to be hurt by her the way you have.

No way I’d stay with her for a week. If you want to visit family stay in an air B and B in the area or something. If she pipes up about it just tell her that you wanted your own space with the baby and didnt like to impose.

I wrote that badly - I mean I wouldn’t let dc be hurt by her, as she hurt you in the past. I don’t mean you let her hurt dc! I know you haven’t.

but I've just got a gut feeling I shouldn't

99% of the time gut feelings are your survival instincts telling you something. If it helps - you would be right to listen to your instincts.

[quote Dandyli]@youvegottenminuteslynn so sorry to hear what you've suffered, that really is unforgivable. thank you so much for sharing. I totally agree with everything you've mentioned Xx

My mother's transgressions are thankfully not in the unforgivable category. They are just harsh hurtful, thoughtless words and mannerisms that happen far too frequently to help maintain a decent relationship.

Recent ones include :
Don't have another (baby)... She is knows I want two and is insinuating we couldn't cope
I'm fat
I've always been fat actually and only lost it for my wedding (not true at all, I've always been a healthy weight but did pile on the pounds in pregnancy for a variety of reasons which included depression)
I'm too loud with my baby
I'm horrible to everyone (I replied that "no, actually only in response to you, have you not noticed?")

Long running ones :
I'm ungrateful
I've been spoiled
I don't know how lucky I am
I need to lighten up
No one likes me
No wonder I've got no friends etc

Usual emotional abusive chatter

She has never once in my life initiated a hug. And everything is always my fault /doing.

She hasn't got an empathetic bone in her cold 72 year old body.[/quote]
Wow your presence obviously triggers her and causes her great distress if she has to emotionally discharge in this negative way.

I would show her a kindness and keep well out of her orbit so that she doesn’t become dysregulated.

I would tell her that as well.

This isn’t salvageable.

Take yourself well out of punching distance.

I suspect that your own distress is also around knowing how unconditional your love is for your baby and being unable to understand how you were likely denied this?

Prioritise enjoying your motherhood and healing from the damage your own mother has inflicted on you. Your DM behavior to you is emotional abuse - don’t expose yourself to it. If you can seek some counselling it could support you through this process.

Thank you for this thread. As a fellow lapsed catholic ( but still a lot of the philosophy is important to me)...
I heard an interpretation of the bit in the bible that says (paraphrasing) you should forgive 70 times 7 as meaning that you try to forgive, and try again and again .... not that the feckers keep doing more and more and you allow it. Just that you are trying to forgive but with best will it's one step forward two steps back.
It's work in progress but for me forgiveness = I wish my mother a peaceful happy life, and doesn't mean there aren't days when I don't just feel angry or terribly sad about how she behaved

@definatiz I think the idea of forgiveness for a self improving society is a constructive one. If we never forgave and we felt once we'd done something wrong we'd always be frowned upon why we would we try to avoid doing it again? We may as well continue making that offence as there's no motivation to try and be better.

I guess as well it's all possible wrapped up in treat others how you wish to be treated. We change and grow and should become wiser and more enlightened as we get older and if we truly regret our past actions why should this not be recognised and forgiven. There's no motivation to regret if there's no chance of forgiveness?

@jackstini

Something someone told me about forgiveness really helped me with issues with my mum:

Just because you forgive, it doesn't mean it didn't happen - it absolutely did
It doesn't mean they were right - they weren't
You don't even have to tell them they are forgiven - it's not about them, it's about you

The option of not forgiving means you hold resentment, anger, hate, fury, bitterness inside you
You know you are not that person - so you choose to let it go for the good of yourself

For me, as a Christian, this meant a conscious decision to hand that burden over to God for him to deal with. It's not for me to judge and Jesus gives me the strength to move on

Holding a grudge is like swallowing poison to hurt someone else - it doesn't work

It's not easy, but wow it feels good!
I will be praying for you

This is my take on it. Forgiveness is for yourself..to stop bitterness and resentment polluting you which could then transfer on to others. You are willing to forgive . You are keeping your own heart right which will be good for you and your baby so this horrible stuff doesn't go down another generation. But you don't have to take any more. Its perfectly reasonable to pull right back from your mother. If you had been abused by a stranger you wouldn't be expected to have anything to do with them. Same for family. She is continuing the abuse so step away. You don't have to make a big drama of it but don't get involved with her. Forgiveness doesn't mean she did nothing. She absolutely did but that's her problem to deal with. You look after yourself.

For any abused Christian, but especially those with mothers like this:
www.luke173ministries.org/466805

This page is specifically on forgivenes, but the whole site is so needed

I think forgiveness is ongoing

You feel rubbish today because of treatment years ago.

You forgive that person for the way their past behaviour is making you feel today.

You feel rubbish tomorrow - you have to forgive tomorrows pain separately.