other opinions of this situation please - adopted daughter / father cut off

[Ele01]

I have posted a couple times and seemed support and received some lovely support- I was recommended to the adoption boards and relationship boards but I wanted to ask others (other perspectives) over this situation below just in a brief summary:

Adopted our daughter from months old she is now 10 years old. Since the divorce a few months ago my ex husband has completely cut from the daughters life like almost immediately after the divorce was sent in paperwork form and I’m ashamed to say he even started to refer her our daughter not as ‘our daughter’ anymore but ‘legal daughter’ there has been no asking how she is etc and certainly doesn’t want to see her.
My ex accused me of being ‘abusive’

Is that a red flag above? if I was so ‘truly abusive’ would you expect a man/father to leave child with the person you excuse or being abusive and for a child you have parental responsibility for would you find it acceptable he left that child solely in the person he accused of their full care and just cut off? is that an excuse or reasonable excuse to leave a child or is there any excuses?
I’m curious to how others would view if for example if you met a man that wasn’t involved with his child adopted or biological just any child he was involved with for many years and had parental responsibility.
Would you except any excuses that he doesn’t see the child? Or would you consider them red flags regardless of what he said etc.

Appreciate peoples time to read my post, I’m just working through my emotions and supporting my daughter etc x

Personally, I would choose a relationship with a man who hadn't done everything he could, including legal routes to see his children.

However, the people who abandon their kids often have a believable lie they tell someone they are dating. The actual story is not the story they tell.

However, I wouldn't spend too much time wondering what a new woman in his life will or won't think about wether he has red flags or not. Its impossible for you to know what he is telling people, what a new woman would think or her reasoning.

Its not going to help you, in the long run.

With stepchildren there is no legal expectation that you can continue to see them without the bio parents permission they dont need to pay child support either

Adopted children and bio are different i would absolutely frown upon a man who doesn't see/pay for them especially if he claims she is "crazy" or she "stops him" because for a couple of hundred pounds you can begin court proceedings and self rep so I would assume she is fine as a mother or he is a fucking psychopath who doesn't care about anyone but himself either way I would be booking out and not hanging around

Men can be sneaky though my ex told his last fiance that I had social services heavily involved and I was losing custody of my children and they had to prepare to take custody of my kids the truth was no social services involved i wasn't losing custody not involved with a paedophile he was choosing not to see or pay for his children (and also claiming he was paying hundreds of pounds in child support a week and I was getting zero)

She believed every word of it

@Hekatestorch yeah that is true I never thought about that someone could just lie yes. I think I just put it in perspective (for me personally) that unless I heard the man was going down the legal route and I could actually see it that he’s doing something - but even then I would be wary. Would you be the same? I guess what I’m trying to have is peoples opinions on this because I was made to feel it was all my fault even though he was the one that cut off (I’m working with relate on this I have an appointment next week again)- it’s been really difficult to process it all in my mind x

I’m working with relate to process it all but I’ve kept everything inside what’s happened last few months purely to keep going for my daughter to make sure she is ok and I feel I need abit of counselling to move on, but mumsnet been really good to chat to people.

Yeah he didn’t do anything with lawyers / no police or anything like that. Just straight off cut that he doesn’t want anything and obviously after 10 years it was awful even after what he said and did I said I would never stop him seeing her etc but that his lack of regard for her was concerning me that’s exactly how I phrased it - but it was a complete cut x

@Theunamedcat omg how awful for him to say! Did she find out the truth eventually?

@Theunamedcat, most people don't expect such outrageous lies so they believe what a charming new partner is telling them.

However given your experience and mine, it's seems fairly common for disordered individuals to lie so easily. Estimates are that it affects approx 10% of population which is why it's much more common than people assume. Many of us have been unfortunate to have relationships with toxic/disordered people who at first appear very normal.

Op, I would caution every woman who hears of an "crazy" Ex to use it as a red flag. My focus is on women because whilst disordered women exist, men still hold more power so tend to have greater impact on individuals.

I can relate to your shock as of course it's extremely painful to have your daughter discarded. It's actually typical of a toxic person to accuse an ex spouse of being abusive (smear campaign) and to discard children or others (scorched earth policy). It's usually so that they can present who they are to a new partner without the truth inconveniently coming out.

If it's all relatively recent then you will be on a roller coaster of emotions and you may yet learn more. Ex discarded everyone close to us, except the children, although he drops them when it's inconvenient to his new life. It's almost as if his previous life or connections didn't exist. It was so shocking to me but I realise he had done it previously however he was younger then and I assumed other reasons for "starting afresh"

There are no excuses for a decent man to cut off his daughter like this, whether she was biologically his or adopted.

@Fireflygal I agree if an ex is that crazy etc why not take the kids out their responsibilities and make sure they are ok? Yes I am still in shock I think even though it was months ago. What I find even more distasteful is that my ex has made out he doesn’t love our daughter (adopted daughter) even though we have had her since months old it’s been ten years. After separation he was trying to make me sell the house but I pay for it anyway I sustain the mortgage and bills so I didn’t want to because of my young daughter to uproot her even further and his reply was (even though that option wasn’t even needed) was to cut daughter off and suggest for us both to into social housing when it was not needed and started to call her a ‘legal only daughter’ from when I said ‘our daughter’ I don’t know what would make a father does this after so many years - he’s having a great time now single life and buying expensive things for himself . I just feel hurt for my daughter that she hasn’t had a dad to step up but then calls me abusive but can talk to me about house related things / talk about other things but can’t even ask how his daughter is? I’m just perplexed and wondered what others thought of a man who doesn’t see biological / adopted children would there be any excuses - it’s been made from him to be my fault but even after the things he said about my daughter I never closed that door on the relationship with his daughter he did it on his own choosing. I guess I just still feel incredibly hurt as it’s early days but he has made it plain he will never ask or see her again

@Onelifeonly yes thank you for your opinion I agree- so you would take absolutely no excuse? How about if the man said ex was ‘crazy’ or ‘abusive’ would that not justify to you for a man to abandon / not have any contact with child? (Biologically / adopted)

@Onelifeonly what if he told you a story that he left his 6 month old biological baby (but you he never knew originally)- and now that child is older still under 16 but older and he saw him once a week but not his adopted child?

By the way of background too I found out on a message from his ex wife that he wasn’t even involved with his biological child untill he met me - I never knew this . So practically once a week for years and years I supported him with his biological child. Making out now he is the perfect dad - his ex hates him but it’s more passive now she is just happy with her other children with a man she remarried. I feel used kind of too

Some people are just selfish bastard scumbags. Who only care about themselves.

Let them spin their lies. Let the mugs who believe it believe it. You know the truth. That's all that matters.

What a vile man. The father of my eldest didn't see him for 12 years. He told his family that I was stopping him seeing him (his cousin who I'm still friends with, told me that). I didn't tell his family otherwise as I am not going to force someone to see my kids.

Luckily your daughter has you. Don't listen to him and keep doing what is best for your daughter.

@PepsiHoover I agree. He was / is incredibly selfish. He refused to pay child support because he couldn’t afford it but earns over 35k a year and that’s all I wanted was him to support his daughter and then the ‘legal only daughter’ came into being used - I thought why would this man who has been here for ten years (no he hasn’t been hands on father with either of the children from previous marriage or ours) but this lack disregard I couldn’t believe it - he’s basically made out he doesn’t care because she is adopted. But this has been a child that’s been our lives since months old she is now ten years old she calls us mum and dad etc I just can’t get over how someone could do this and then start saying about abuse etc but does that excuse his actions saying she was only a legal daughter etc and trying to put her out her home and go into social housing when it didn’t need it (thankfully I retained the home and pay all the bills / mortgage anyway) it’s like he didn’t care at all that’s very hard to admit that to myself hence the relate counselling I’m going to have x

@Sakurami I’m sorry to hear about your situation. My ex family have been told by my ex to stop sending gifts to our daughter for Christmas etc - and they have gone quiet because obviously they will side with their son choice - I just find it cruel if you know what I mean? Yeah thank god she has me - I think what upset me more if I hadn’t been as strong he didn’t care how he treated us and how it affected anything luckily it didn’t it made me more to want to look after my daughter emotionally and physically, it was just the total disregard that I couldn’t get over and also just the lack of care how anything could be affecting me , surely there should be some respect for me being the full time parent but wasn’t.

What happened for 12 years did he get back In contact? X

[quote Ele01]@Sakurami I’m sorry to hear about your situation. My ex family have been told by my ex to stop sending gifts to our daughter for Christmas etc - and they have gone quiet because obviously they will side with their son choice - I just find it cruel if you know what I mean? Yeah thank god she has me - I think what upset me more if I hadn’t been as strong he didn’t care how he treated us and how it affected anything luckily it didn’t it made me more to want to look after my daughter emotionally and physically, it was just the total disregard that I couldn’t get over and also just the lack of care how anything could be affecting me , surely there should be some respect for me being the full time parent but wasn’t.

What happened for 12 years did he get back In contact? X[/quote]
My son wanted to get to know him. I had always told my son that I was happy for him/understood if he wanted contact. He didn't want to until I split up with his step father (I think out of loyalty).

He didn't see him because he didn't want to pay for him nor spend petrol money seeing him (we lived 1.5hours away). But he had never been hands on.

He's back in his life now and my son treats him like a big brother. Has fun when they're together but there's no consistency and he did let him down a few times during lockdown. He didn't even come to his milestone birthday because it was lockdown. (Would have been allowed to see him in the garden).

My ex, for all his faults, is a good step father to him and treats him like his own bio kids.

@Sakurami that’s nice that you can say that about his step father that he treats the kids like bio etc.

What is it with these men? That can do this to their kids?

My ex husband was the same as yours not hands on at all maybe that’s why they can cut off easily do you think? My ex didn’t want to pay either child support so I went to cms after 2 months of refusal prior even though he was spending loads on himself and earns 35k per year so he wanted to abandon daughter and not support I thought there was no way my daughter was suffering further so I make sure all that money goes on her education / ballet lessons and music lessons. Makes my blood boil that we just expected to have crap being our backs but then can abandon kids and not want to support them (but like my ex said she was only legally his (adopted) it sounded like he didn’t care about ten years of being family and our daughter calls him ‘dad’ and has done since being a baby her first words were ‘mum and dad’ it’s just a crying shame for children this happens to and then as the mothers we left to all the heartache and picking up the pieces x

I've seen several of your posts before and agree that your ex has behaved abominably towards his dd. There is no excuse. Sadly it seems to be a common story that men, when deserting their wife also choose to desert their children. There are always a million excuses that they come up with so they can live with the terrible guilt and cognitive dissonance of abandoning a child. ( My ex has poisoned the dc against me or My ex has made it impossible for me to see them or My ex is a psycho bitch and has damaged my mental health too much or My ex is a money grabbing bitch who just wants me for free childcare ). Note how the excuses nearly always blame the ex.

In your case your ex has decided to blame his behaviour on you being abusive. Perhaps you were - we don't know. But obviously it's not an excuse for his behaviour.

My question is why this - if accusing you of abuse is a red flag - is the one aspect of the whole terrible situation that you have focused on every time you've posted about this. You have asked the same question again and again.

I've seen you get a lot of good advice. I've seen you advised to focus on your dd not him. I've seen people agree that his behaviour is inexcusable. But again and again you come back to whether it's a red flag to accuse you of abuse.

Of course it's a red flag but so what? How is that helping you or your dd? I wish you the best and hope you and your dd can build a happy life together and heal from this. Leave him and what he said about you behind and work on yourself if you think you need to. Good luck for the future

[quote Ele01]@Theunamedcat omg how awful for him to say! Did she find out the truth eventually?[/quote]
I told her but im honestly not sure if she believes me or not either way she has moved on and is in another relationship he likes to keep people quite enmeshed and dangling on a string to boost his ego he was telling her at one point I had him "almost hostage" in my home hitting him and demanding he stay broken up with her and that we were back together or else I literally facetimed her to show her I was in fact on my own he wasn't in my house (he isnt allowed due to past abuse) she cried about that and he was still texting her telling her I was abusing him and to call the police 🙄 thankfully she didn't

@Haffdonga I appreciate it. Yes me too I’m hoping to just move on and work on myself. And yes I think being accused of abuse has really got to me. I was ill that required several operations and it affected our intimacy and then the arguments started more and he wouldn’t support me while ill properly or help with daughter so yeah I did shout and we are argued but after the separation there was no arguments or big blow outs and yet he seem to pretend to be doing the right thing for a few days arranging to see daughter etc (I was fine then) but then after a few days cut off I was left bewildered to what had happen maybe it affected my mental health as for a long time I thought I was loosing everything my home my daughters stability and her way of life etc but all that’s sorted now I’m just left feeling crappy :( I’ve asked relate I need to get it straight in my mind that my ex excusing me of abuse wouldn’t stop him calling my daughter only legal or wanting to see her in some way or asking how she is and I need to except that (I know this) infront of my daughter she is completely unaware what’s gone on but I don’t want to bottle up and then it come out in other ways affecting me- so I started talking to relate and yeah I’ve had some advice on here it feels like ok speaking to someone on here which is nice other mums and people who have been through similar things x

@Theunamedcat how horrible! But I’m glad she saw through it! How could he lie like that! I think they have been emotionally damaged or something to be able to lie to that extent? X

How he views her is irrelevant. According to UK Law she is his daughter and you can both enforce contact and claim CSA support if you want.

Men abandon their children all the time and yes abandoning your child because you are a twat is a massive red flag highlighting you’re a twat.

I know it’s hard that he’s justifying his shitty behaviour by lying about you but it’s what some men do and far too many people are willing to believe the bullshit of someone they think they know than the sometimes, more plausible.

The more you let his bs take up space in your head, the less time you have to mitigate the damage your arsehole of an Ex has done tour DD.

@Haffdonga I think it’s because that’s what was the main focus of what he told me to say to me like it made him feel better to do what he did and say because he was saying i ‘abused’ him - and it like made it better to do the things he has done and said about my daughter because of it and because I’ve never been in this situation before it completely blind sided me and still does (but I’m sure others have been through similar and will come out stronger) it’s early days but I will be fine and I will just after to accept that he can say what he wants but at the end of the day I have no police record. I had been so ill with a few operations and it affected my mental health and when the sex stopped because I couldn’t do it with the operations to my ‘private’ I could hardly have sex for a year while healing this is when we had our bad patch in the marriage and split up and for it to be used kind of against me I found extremely hurt and then to do what’s happened to my daughter still hurt over it . I won’t get over it but I will move on and like I said I’m hoping relate can really help me to move on they said they are going to help me - I do appreciate you talking to me. And I also think I’m worried what he’s telling others but I can’t control that can I - I need to stop caring as much what he is saying as excuses etc x

@AgentJohnson I completely agree what you have said resonated with me. I really appreciate your comments. You’re right I think that’s what I need to stop justifying his behaviour (calling me abuser etc and saying horrible things about my daughter and making me feel he just didn’t give a crap about her)
The more I allow time for him my mind it’s going to be worse in the long run. I just want to be ok for my daughter , I just want everything to be ok. I won’t forget the hurt - but I do want to move on and I want to stop thinking what he is telling others about me and my daughter the facts are I’m looking after her and have full custody so i mustn’t be that bad as probably he is making out to ‘justify’ his actions - i think I just wanted a wide opinions of reasons that dads are not in a child’s life etc and see if anyone else thought there was any reasonable reasons because I was just trying to get things straighter in my head but thinking of it of how he’s been or saying isn’t going to change anything is it , I just want to forget that arsehole you’re right x

I'm a adopted adult , i was adopted at 10 months , my adopted parents divorced 3 years later and i have never ever spoken to my adopted father, i am now 48 and its like i dont exist in his mind, in fact none of his side of the family have ever reached out and my grandfather put a clause in his will to say only biological grandchild inherit. I later found out that he never wanted the adoption it was all my adopted mothers idea and he just went along with it. He has never met my son his grandson, it really used to bother me , now im too old to care, His the one who missed out on us.

@Ozanj yeah you’re right. I think it’s just the general hurt of that fact. But you’re right even if he is viewing her that way it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have responsibility it’s been 10 years and she is his daughter through adoption. It’s just sad that I’m having to say it like that and I don’t have a dad stepping up to make sure his daughter is ok it’s just being used now that she isn’t his and I feel this is a reason too that he’s stepped aside maybe he never thought of her as a proper daughter I don’t know but said for ten years ‘my daughter’ and now after divorce she isn’t - I find it cruel-
I wish there was some law about it you can go to court regarding a mother for stopping child contact with father and although I don’t believe in forcing a father to see a child he doesn’t want to there should be some responsibility of it for like emotional neglect but there is nothing legal for that x