Relationship counselling, mumsnet and real life

[Elderpower]

There seems to be 3 stories to my marriage. Real life is me living with a constant irritable feeling around DH. His odd behaviours, me wanting space from him, feeling smothered and yet on the whole, being civil with him and putting a front on to the world. Sometimes, really enjoying his company and often, not.

Then the mumsnet version, as I seem to use the site as a crutch where I voice everything negative and never anything positive about my marriage. Usual responses are generally to LTB.

We have been struggling for some time and we are in relationship counselling. The sessions are always civil, polite, he admits his failings, I'll admit mine. We make headway in the session, agree to try harder etc. The counsellor is pleased with our progress, but I never really address the day to day bug bears during these sessions. How I don't dind him physically attractive anymore, how he sometimes smells, how me irritates the life out of me when he sits picking his feet every evening, that he talks too loud and makes me feel tense, I don't like his mother, I don't like his friends, their values or what they stand for, that I feel resentful for the way he behaved when I had PND. All of this, I can't really mention easily, because ultimately, it's all part of who he is and unchangeable. But because I haven't mentioned any of this
our counsellor doesn't understand the full extent of my feelings either.

Mumsnet is now this secret vice where I let out all my frustrations with DH and then continue as normal with him. It's just not balancing out. The reason we're in counselling is because communication between us is awful (for lots of reasons) and we need help with conversation. But part of me also feels that by not having uncomfortable conversations with him, I'm protecting myself from being hurt by the negative reactions that I might expect from him. At the same time, after a rant on mumsnet about him, I feel better and can tolerate him again, even enjoy his company.

I'm very confused.
I need to find where the balance is.
Any ideas?

It sounds like you have to address the harder issues in your sessions together.

Some things may be unchangeable parts of him but personal hygiene and picking his feet for example are things that he could work on.

Part of the problem with communication is that you still have to communicate the red button issues. I can understand why it's hard to do that

Do you really actually like him or is it more that you love him because you have been part of each others lives for so long? Would you choose to spend time with him if you had just met him now?

Ask the counselor for a few session with just you alone. Tell them all that stuff you haven't said yet. Try to work out with counsellor help if you want to stay with him or not. Whichever way that goes, counsellor can help you bring it up in conversation with your partner.

Sounds like deep down you know it's over but can't face that. Perhaps delete Mumsnet account until you reach a decision about whether to stay in the relationship. Using Mumsnet in this way is enabling you to remain in the present situation with nothing changing, using it as a crutch like this isn't helping you. Remove the crutch as an option and that could help you face the fact you need to do something, not just post about it.

Also in joint therapy so understand your troubles op.

What jumped out at me is the glaring "resentment of how he treated me when I had PND" which you just chucked into the middle of your paragraph but it's a huge topic, and if left untreated could cause so many other issues. I wouldn't be surprised if, when you e processed this, other things become easier to bear. It's also a topic well worth exploring with a professional who can keep things in perspective. You can't and shouldn't hold these feelings in for fear of his reaction. Get your money's worth.

As PP has said, feet picking and hygiene are workable, and I wouldn't even bother in therapy. I'd wait until an opportune moment (e.g. he's a bit pongy?) and then rather than say "You gonna shower today?", sit him down and say "I actually really dislike how little attention you pay to hygiene, it's not nice to live with" and take it from there. Repeat with feet picking a few weeks after that...

But I don't think its worth dealing with your resentment from the PND.

But part of me also feels that by not having uncomfortable conversations with him, I'm protecting myself from being hurt by the negative reactions that I might expect from him.

@Elderpower What sort of reactions do you fear from him?

Any form of criticism I've given him forms rhe basis for him to fire back at me. He'll have an answer for everything, not address anything I say to him and just charge right back at me. For example, when I last spoke to him about his mother's rudeness towards me, he had a list of what he perceived as my misgivings to fire back. None of it was relevant or stuff that je admitted, bothered him particularly but it just becomes this tit for tat scenario.

Then there's the gaslighting where I'll be overreacting about everything (in his eyes), or He'll contradict me with opposing viewpoints on everything. The conversation will end with me feeling pretty shit. I feel better not having to speak to him about things.

I did bring this up in counselling and voiced that I don't want to speak to him about anything anymore. He made out that I struggled not being agreed with, I expressed that the trouble is that he never seeks to understand me. He said he'd try harder to, I said I'd be more open to criticism.

But in reality, I am tired of the communication battle.

He sounds like hard work. What do you get out of staying in the relationship? Perhaps, if you don't want to LTB, then you need to accept you are staying despite him, not because of him. Everyone makes compromises in life and perhaps you need to accept that you've tried counselling, nothing changed and you are persevering for x,y,z reasons.

Why not just leave? This sounds over to me.

To be honest it sounds like you don’t love or respect him anymore- and that’s ok, I’m not sure I would either, he sounds bloody hard work! But my point is when we have stopped loving someone and feel little respect for them, then the relationship is over really.
That’s how I eventually realised my first marriage was over.
What are you gaining by staying in this relationship? Are you hoping you can change his whole personality? It’s not going to happen.

I agree with @BeeOnADandelion, individual counselling may help. I have been where you are OP (30 year marriage) although my OH wouldn't consider relationship counselling.

I had counselling on my own and it really helped me to work out what I wanted for me and my life without trying to take everyone else's feelings into account. It felt very scary and disloyal at first to be talking about him in this way but ultimately it helped me to decide that the marriage really was over.

That's not to say that it has been easy, it has been the hardest thing I've ever done but I was slowly dying inside so I am completely sure that it is the right thing to do.

I hope you get some help, MN helped me too for a while but I realised I couldn't carry on as I was and something had to change.

Hmmmm it’s a tough one. I agree with the suggestion that you could have a one to one session with your counsellor (they’d need to also have 1-1 with him) or you could bite the bullet and bring it up in the next session? It won’t be anything a decent counsellor won’t be expecting, there is always a point that shit gets real and the counsellor thinks “ah- HERE they are!” As they see the real issue in action playing out. And I think your moment is the PND issue being unresolved. No counselling cannot change how he acted in the period nor how you felt at the time, but it can address how you feel now about it and it can support you being heard and him being unable to throw it back at you. It’s worth noting that this “throwing stuff back at you” is a classic form of defensive behaviour and he might need some help to stop doing that and to be able to sit with the discomfort and difficult feelings he experiences. Often men are less mature in their ability to handle a full range of emotions and have learnt to just try to get rid of them as fast as they can (which is often throwing them back at you!)

Keep on keeping on with the counselling- it could be worth it in the long term and if it’s not then at least you know you’ve given it your best shot. But be honest there…you won’t shock them!

Any form of criticism I've given him forms rhe basis for him to fire back at me. He'll have an answer for everything, not address anything I say to him and just charge right back at me

So he's defensive and not willing to listen or to change his behaviour.

When he does the above, do you go back with a 'I'm not talking about me, that's another conversation, I'm talking about you so don't try to deflect the conversation.'

It sounds as if you are allowing him to control your dialogue. But he has the upper hand, verbally.

In good counselling, they ought to allow each of you to express your feelings without the other person challenging you or interrupting.

You ought to try to do this at home.

I also think you ought to be more honest in counselling and bring up the body odour and the feet picking. He's getting off too lightly!

On the other hand, if your values aren't the same (his friends etc) and he sides with his mum over you, didn't support with through your depression, it makes me ask why you are with him.

You don't have to stay with someone if they are making you unhappy and aren't willing to change.

It sounds like the feelings are mutual and he holds a load of resentment towards you also. Hence whenever you bring up things your unhappy about he just fires back with the things he doesn't like about you as an excuse. I remember the same with my husband, i'd try and tell him why i'd got so upset with something and he'd come back with yeah well you did that once blah blah. Or I don't like this about the way you react and he'd fire straight back well you do this and i hate that. Its a vicious cycle and tit for tat. We completed long stint of couples counselling and really nothing was resolved because we had been skirting over the real issues and resentment. All the counselling achieved was to enable us to live without rowing constantly. The only way to end it and resolve anything once and for all is to say it is over and i want to leave. At that point only the honest conversations start because there is nothing left to loose. I didn't like or love my husband particularly for a long time....years (not every second of everyday, we'd have happy family moments in amongst it with our kids but as a couple nope). We are now so happy together and i never would have believed it. But it took reaching the end and both choosing to come back.

You sound like the previous me, Elderpower (except I couldn't rant on MN about him as he made it clear he could see everything I put on the internet).

It doesn't sound like the couples counselling is doing you any good. I agree with PPs who have said individual counselling might be an idea for you, help you work out some of that confusion

This is far more than a mere "communication" problem, but you don't seem ready to face up to that yet.

Then the mumsnet version, as I seem to use the site as a crutch where I voice everything negative and never anything positive about my marriage. Usual responses are generally to LTB.

Also, have you considered that some negative things are unacceptable regardless of the 'context' or any positives?

You don't have to be in a relationship with a pure unbridled monster for leaving to be the right answer, you know.

Even rapists and murderers have plenty of positive traits, still doesn't make rape or murder acceptable.

Bookmarking as I feel in the exact same situation except we’ve never made it to couples counselling. I’ve been to counselling myself, we reached a point when I said I can only do 50% if what’s needed to make this work and he said he’d try to get counselling. Of course he didn’t then Covid came along and here we still are. Me miserable, him seemingly indifferent, poor communication (totally get the batting it back to you) and no intimacy, which was always lacking anyway. I tried to box it all up in my mind but it’s all still there I dealt with. :(

See your counsellor on your own? He can too, obviously. That way everyone has the gift of full disclosure..

Though the smelling and feet picking would be a dealbreaker for mr…

me

@Elderpower

Any form of criticism I've given him forms rhe basis for him to fire back at me. He'll have an answer for everything, not address anything I say to him and just charge right back at me. For example, when I last spoke to him about his mother's rudeness towards me, he had a list of what he perceived as my misgivings to fire back. None of it was relevant or stuff that je admitted, bothered him particularly but it just becomes this tit for tat scenario.

Then there's the gaslighting where I'll be overreacting about everything (in his eyes), or He'll contradict me with opposing viewpoints on everything. The conversation will end with me feeling pretty shit. I feel better not having to speak to him about things.

I did bring this up in counselling and voiced that I don't want to speak to him about anything anymore. He made out that I struggled not being agreed with, I expressed that the trouble is that he never seeks to understand me. He said he'd try harder to, I said I'd be more open to criticism.

But in reality, I am tired of the communication battle.

Some people's bar for their own acceptable behaviour is really low. They're happy with this, because ultimately they don't care enough about others to want to be a decent person. The sort of person who doesn't hurt others unnecessarily and cares if they do upset someone. So you end up with a situation whereby you're asking them to be something they're not - a decent person.

With their bar for their own acceptable behaviour so low, they see being expected to be "better" as a threatening insult and totally unreasonable. They see it as you expecting perfection (since they're already adequate, in their eyes), therefore start pointing out all your flaws as a way of demonstrating how unreasonable you are to expect perfection when you're not perfect yourself.

In their eyes they're already good enough (autocorrect originally put "God enough" which I corrected, but perhaps I should have let it stand!). They don't see any need to be a decent person. If you look at it from the perspective of remaining in a bad relationship, they're right. You're together, which is what they want. And they didn't have to be a decent person to achieve that. They don't have to be a decent person for you to stay, either. You know how they are and you're still there.

They're saying over and over that they don't want to change and become a decent person, by not walking away and ending the relationship you're reinforcing the belief that they don't have to. You literally can't "win", can't have what you want - a relationship with a decent person who is also this person, you can have one or the other but not both.

The gaslighting is abuse and designed to make you feel like shit, therefore preventing you from wanting to carry out the behaviour that leads to it. So the abuse has been successful there, you no longer want to speak to him about his faults.

You could stand firm and continue to do the behaviour that leads him to start gaslighting you ie continue expecting him to be a decent person, refuse to be cowed or let it drop. IME that won't get you what you want either. IME when gaslighting was no longer enough to control me, the overt physical violence started. IMO an abusive person doesn't ever say "oh ok I see your point, I'm abusive and unreasonable, I'll stop it now". They're abusive because they want to control you. If they can't control you by one means they'll just use another.

He's sort of right about you not being agreed with. You want him to agree he's not a decent person and to change. He thinks he's fine and doesn't want to change. It's a fundamental difference of opinion. IMO it's impossible to have a successful romantic relationship with someone if your fundamental beliefs don't match up.

He's said he'll "try to" understand you, but I'm guessing he has no intention of trying very hard or for very long. It's something said to appease you and the counsellor, making him look good whilst requiring almost no effort from him. You said you'd be more open to abuse, because that's what his criticism of you is. This is what he wants, to be able to abuse you to control you, therefore he's happy to remain in the relationship.

So now the ball is back in your court. Are you going to agree to a relationship on his terms or not?

Do you like this man?

I'm in a failing relationship, DW is the one who has checked out and I don't know why.

The more I think about it the simple things seem to be the most telling. The lack of any day to day intimacy, the not even turning over to look at you in the morning, I think that shows the underlying fundamental attraction in the relationship has gone.

I've considered suggesting counselling but feel it would be a waste of money as the basics aren't even there.

Sounds like the basics have gone for you so are any of the specific scenarios really relevant?

You know you need to address the tough stuff, and in session sounds like a sensible opportunity.

How about you pick a couple of things from your list that you feel would be easiest to explain. For example - your MIL. You're right - not liking her isn't his fault. But there must be some impact he's having on the interaction that means you resent him for it: does he let her trample boundaries, or put pressure on you to spend time with her, for example? Having set out a whole list of things that you find difficult about him, I think it would be a mistake to just give an avalanche in one go but you could raise them one by one and cross them off over time? Then at least you know you're taking steps towards showing both the counselor and him the full extent of the issues.

I've considered suggesting counselling but feel it would be a waste of money as the basics aren't even there.

It could help you understand why she's checked out. Once you know that, the pair of you can decide if it's something you want to work on as a couple to try to bring the relationship back to the point where it works again, or if breaking up is the best option.

Imagine if he became more hygienic and stopped talking too loudly and fixed all those other little things, would you want to be with him?
Or has it gone beyond that?