How do you co-parent with an awful exH

[AnotherGo]

I haven't left yet. But I need to. I spend a long time reading similar stories on here from women with awful husbands and read all the responses....LTB, 'do you want you kids to copy such an awful relationship' 'what are you scared of' etc

And I get all of that.

But if he's so awful and petty and mean....as mine is. How do you co-parent without just basically ruining your kids lives? If I can't bear him...how can I drop my two small children at his for weekends (or whatever arrangement we have) and just drive away? I'm not scared of being a single mum...i'm scared of my children having to spend time with him without me being there to make everything ok. Not because he will hurt them but because he will be vindictive and make life hard as possible which is just gonna be awful for the dc.

Any advice?

Anyone? The fear of it is keeping me here.

But are you "making it OK"?
Or are you just smoothing it over and effectively normalising it?
They're growing up in that atmosphere 100% of the time, no respite, no safe place, growing up with it as their "normal".
Also, it can't be doing your mental health any good, so they're not getting the best of you either.

If you leave, you can provide an emotionally safe home and counterpoint to his influence.

What are you afraid he'll do to them?

They are v small. Under 3. So for example we had an argument this morning and he spent 5 hours on the sofa under a blanket refusing to speak. The toddler thinks it's funny as I told him daddy is a sleeping lion. But that shit won't work forever. So I do feel like I'm managing it but it's not sustainable

I'm worried he will stare st his phone and ignore them for hours on end. But perhaps I just can't emotionally come to terms with idea of leaving them at all. He can't drive and he plays lots of video games so the worst is just them having a boring horrible time with a dad who blames mummy for ruining it all. I also feel so scared he will try to get 5050 or worse. I improve my life but make theirs worse?

My stbxh is petty and spiteful but is Disney dad with the kids. He tends to take them to family as he can't actually look after them both at the same time.

Sorting out contact, financial agreement etc has had to go down the legal route, all of which the kids are unaware of.

Don't stay with him for the sake of your fear of what it will be like If you don't. If he's not capable of looking after them or you think they will be in danger let him go through court for access.

Life is too short, leave.

So what is he actually like with the kids?

The reality may well be that he can't be bothered to see them for long at all. So once his initial blustering ('I'm gonna take you to court and get full custody' etc) is over they won't be there for any weekends at all.

@titchy

The reality may well be that he can't be bothered to see them for long at all. So once his initial blustering ('I'm gonna take you to court and get full custody' etc) is over they won't be there for any weekends at all.

Yes, and you could hint at looking forward to having the time to date or something and he might be more inclined to try to put a spoke in that wheel by not having them.

@Roblox01

So what is he actually like with the kids?

Urm. Hard question. He's really good when it'd easy but not v good at the hard stuff. E.g. he will take the older one to bed every night and read him loads of books and be so loving but if the baby wakes at 3am it's up to me to sort. He talks a v good game...they are his life, being a dad is the best thing in his life etc. Problem with relationship and everything is when we fight or things go wrong he collapses, sulks, storms out. I feel like he's my 3rd child.

I was scared about this OP for a long time and it was part the reason I held off.

Co parenting is a nightmare in the sense that he never agrees until the last minute when he wants to see them, he doesnt have them over night and an average visit is 2.5 to 6 hours. Will give me short notice also and will not co operate with the letters I sent him about contact, then moans its not enough.

I tell him he can see them more but he never acts on it. And just sees them when it suits him. Dc are starting to not want to see him. He will slag me off to them.

Wants to know where I go everyday and tries to make it my responsibility to confer with him over every minor day to day decision.

I have now stepped away from it a bit but he still controls me through the kids.

My dc are teens now but my advice is to make sure you have official contact in place, which I dont as he refused to but I recommend you insist.

You're not making it ok, you're normalising shitty behaviour and denying them the opportunity to have a safe, stable base.

Telling yourself you are making it ok is a form of denial to protect yourself from what's happeninv. It's not actually true.

You won't have to be scared anymore once you've left and all the uncertainty and anticipation is behind you. You are frightened because it's ahead of you and unknown, but once it's done you can just start getting on with things and adjust and learn coping strategies for the more difficult parts. Even wanted changes bring emotional challenges but we always adjust if we give ourselves time and compassion

You're actually making the fear and emotions bigger and harder for yourself by delaying.

It's not good for your child to think shitty, dysfunctional behaviour is normal and funny. Teaching your child that it's funny when daddy behaves badly is not a good thing. (Among other consequences, "if it's funny when daddy behaves like this, it will be funny if I behave like this..." ) That's not a success, sorry.

The uncertainty and instability of hearing fights and having a dad who storms out and a mum who's stressed/worn down damages their developing nervous systems. You can't see that damage but it is happening and if this continues one day you will be able to see the consequences.

Leaving may not be the euphoric rainbows and butterflies scenario, but it gives them the experience of a safe, stable home to ensure their healthy development and means you are no longer teaching them dysfunction in your efforts to cope and 'make it ok'.

In terms of parenting afterwards, if you understand that his behaviour is about control then it is much easier to disengage and keep an emotional distance. Understanding when he is doing things to get a reaction or to control means you don't get sucked in and can respond in more useful ways.

There is no point wasting energy trying to reason with someone motivated by control, and no point wasting headspace analysing him or getting frustrated. Detaching makes it manageable.

You don't even know if he'll want access to the kids. Men threaten it, but the reality? Had he ever done every bit of being a parent for an entire weekend before? Why would he start now?

It is really really hard, but as someone above says, they’ll then have your home to compare with and at some point they will make their choices.

If he even bothers having them consistently, he may not.

Try and get agreement to contact times, if he won’t, then tell him when the children will be available. Cafcass website has some ideas for wording a parenting agreement.

Can you afford to see a solicitor?

If you get evidence that he’s neglecting them, document it all.

@user16395699 I really appreciate your reply and your honesty. I get what you're saying. I only said daddy is pretending to be a sleeping lion as saying "your father is lying under a duvet because he's emotionally manipulating me because he's a nasty piece of work" seemed worse to tell a 2 Yr old.

I'm joking. But I'm trying my best

But in this post break up world the kids still suffer as they have to put up with his shit still? But they do it alone

I know I'm not making things better. But surely they're little minds and nervous systems and everything else will be fucked up by dealing with his poor behaviour by themselves every weekend or whatever he demands?

I've written posts previously about making the decision whether to leave. I'm actually embarrassed for myself. I think about divorce or waking up without him all the time. I daydream about it just being me and the kids. I'm so scared of what's going to happen to them when I ask him to leave. But I've got to stop posting stuff on mumsnet and get on with it and just take the rubbish and blackmail that's going to be thrown at me

It’s really tricky. I was worried about the exact same thing when making the decision to split with my sons Dad. I was worried that he wouldn’t have me there to challenge his Dad if necessary. We split when he was 2/3 and it was probably a bit easier back then as at that age my little one didn’t really understand and would always have a nice time with Dad.

Now that he’s 9 sometimes comes home and complains about his Dad - not major things, but the things I completely get and understand because he was like that when we were together - Dad needs/loves to be right, everything is a passionate debate, mansplains it all, complains in shops and restaurants rudely, openly talks about religion being the root of all evil and religious people are “stupid”. He is intolerable (to me) basically. But my son spends most of his time with me, and I’m the opposite of his Dad - we have a very close relationship built on trust, we spend time talking about the way his Dad is but not in a way to bad mouth him or cause resentment but in a way that validates my sons experience. Eg; he was embarrassed that his Dad was making a scene complaining about some food he ordered and he wanted to tell me about it, even though I wanted to get angry about it I just sit and listen and say yes it’s tricky to be around and it’s okay to feel embarrassed in that situation, how might you do it differently if it was you?

There’s certain things I won’t let go though and my son knows that some things need calling out on as it’s my job as his Mum to keep him safe, not just physically but emotionally. So when his Dad called him a little girl for crying then my son agreed I would speak to him about it. Since being separated I have much more energy to fight the important battles as I’m not exhausted daily by him.

For me, I want my son to know that healthy relationships exist. Staying together in a toxic home environment shows children that actually this is what relationships are and they pick up on the coldness, even if there’s no verbal arguments.

I think at some point my son will end up deciding with his feet, and I’ll always let him make the choice whether he wants to continue 50/50 or not.

I’m mentally much more healthier from being separated and I have a lot more mental space to spend the time with my son where we can have the important conversations one to one without his Dad butting in and telling us that we’re wrong.

I hope this helps x

@JanFebAnyMonth Yes. I can afford a solicitor. Just about. I think he will demand 5050 and then perhaps struggle and mess them/me around. Baby is still breastfed and my toddler goes to nursery but you have to drive to it and my DH can't drive (I've been booking lessons for him like hes a child). So there are practical limits surely to him being given 5050 custody. God. I hate him for being like this. I try to talk to him and say we need to talk this through for our kids and he just says "leave me alone" "fuck off" "get fucked" and today he put his middle finger up at me and smirked. Which was pleasant.

@Blueshoess your post nearly made me cry. Thank you. So much respect to getting through it and doing it so amazingly....and protecting your son from the worst sides of your ex. Are you in a 5050 set up?

What you’re not able to see is that once you’re rid of this emotional deadweight, you’ll feel a sort of joy and safety in your home you never thought possible. Reall fun will return. Their best happier mum will return. And this will give them the safety and resilience to cope with contact time with dad. Sounds like he will puff his chest out and go for 50/50 but I just don’t believe he has it in him, in reality. More likely he’ll do a small amount of contact.

You’ve got this, OP

I did it and never looked back

Aww no worries, it’s so tough and hats off to you for having to go through this with two little ones. The fact you’re willing to stay and feel unhappy and be treated appallingly to protect your little ones just shows your determination for your babies.

We are 50/50 now, though all of the mental load is still on me. Be prepared to have to do all the planning, schooling, homework, clubs, clothes buying and making sure they have the things they need. It’s tough, but now that we’re settled into this routine and his Dad has a long-term relationship with a very lovely woman who I try hard with to make her feel valued - she does so much for my son, and he adores her so although his Dad drives me nuts it’s in my best interest to make it as easy as possible for her. I’m with a new partner too, though we don’t live together, but my son spends time with me and my partner and his son and we have the lovely family days out and he gets to witness what healthy relationships look like. He sees how kind my partner is, how gentle he is and calm and I think he’s becoming to realise that his Dad is a tricky person to be around at times. I’ll never tell him that, and I make a conscious effort not to bad mouth him but I listen to him and let him offload and ask if he would like me to gently talk to his Dad but I think he sometimes feels conflicted because he does naturally love his Dad.

The hardest thing though is that at times if my son gets frustrated or angry, it’s like a mirror of his Dad and that breaks my heart. He does the same mannerisms and “rants” in the same way, which I find challenging and triggering but I know it’s not his fault. On the flip-side though he has my empathy and is able to freely express and communicate how he is feeling because I’ve had that time with him to do the emotional work. I work in children’s mental health too, which helps...but doesn’t necessarily make it easier with his Dad when it comes to co-parenting. He is strict and the “didn’t do me any harm” “life is tough” mentality but when I try to explain to him some gentle parenting techniques or supporting emotional regulation his Dad will often say “oh did you read that in a book?” despite me having a degree and 7 years working in camhs. I’ve gotten really good at just setting the boundaries though, looking after myself, reserving my energy for the battles that need fighting and sadly I know it’ll be a matter of years before my son likely decides actually, I can love my Dad but I’d rather not be with him 50/50. And I’ll always support his decision.

I think if I would have stayed I wouldn’t have had the confidence to follow my heart or ever really understand a healthy relationship myself. I stayed out of fear of being alone, who will want to be with a single mum, how will I cope on my own. But here I am working in a job I love, spending quality time with my son doing the things we always wanted to do, holidaying without misery arse, day trips, got a lovely dog who is our world and I’m with a man who treats me like nobody has before - who adores me, is reliable, comforting, and I didn’t think any of this could be a possibility.

I've co-parented with a man like this for over a decade. Our child was also under 3.... here's my advice to my former self...

Staying isn't an option I will never forgive myself for not leaving sooner. The damage living in that environment does is considerable. I too thought I was ''shielding'' our child from it by staying. I wasn't. I was kidding myself.

you can't co-parent accept this now. Have a very robust legal agreement which specifies exactly when he has contact. Insist on it, don't budge from it - EVER.

*never try and make him ''look good'' and / or cover up the bad he does'' it's tempting, you'll think you're helping the children. What you're really doing is denying their reality - so they start to question their own feelings. They then end up normalizing this type of behavior.

be their safe haven understand they will need to off load onto you, it will be hard, but respond with empathy. Never disparage him just acknowledge their feelings, call out bad behavior. Teach them the right way, how people who love each other treat each other. Insist everyone in your home treats one another with love - I had a list of basic rules - we called them our 'family rules'' - stuff like use kind words, tell the truth, forgive etc.

The best thing you can do to protect your children is leave, as soon as you can. Help them build lives, make friends, learn skills, find what they are good at. As one social worker said to me - make their lives so big that he fades into the background. It was the best advice I was ever given and I only regret not taking it sooner.

Wow brilliant advice from @Blueshoess and @Pinkyxx.
The other thing, OP, is to get some professional support for yourself, do the Freedom Programme and get counselling. Because the better shape you’re in the more you’ll be able to support your little ones.

It’s very much a short term pain for long term gain situation - yes he may do some degree of harm to them initially, but they kind of have to know what he’s like and how that makes them feel, then they can choose.

I know it’s really hard though.

My parents divorced when I was quite young, I believe I was about 8/9? - it was extremely bitter on my dads behalf. My mum left the marriage and put efforts into being civil. My dad however didn’t deal with it gracefully at all. He said would call her every name under the sun while we were at his house, he wouldn’t give us anything that could leave the house, everything had to stay at his.. not in a normal way he always explained “I don’t want your it your mother’s/that bitches house”
He wouldn’t even give me £2 lunch money for school in the absolute fear we would die whatever reason give it to mum. He openly displayed an ex-wife toy voodoo doll covered in pins. He would lost his temper with us.

All it did was push us away; after years of name calling and becoming uncomfortable to go and see him I stopped. It resulted in a phone call after a few weeks to go and get a toy from his house for my sister I think in the attempt to see me. I said no, it was late and dark and he expected me to walk to and from his house.. I was probably about 12 at the time. He screamed at me down the phone and I didn’t see him for a month or so. I then went back, and he shouted again about not seeing him, I walked away not after he said “if you walk out that door I’ll forget you like I forgot your mother” - it’s words I’ll never forget but have since forgiven.

I didn’t see him for 9months, then my younger sister started to go through the same. Would visit unless I went too because it was too uncomfortable to sit and hear our mum slagged off. So I went, we all chipped in that it had to stop and he was driving us away by slagging her off all the time. He was still bitter for a long time, right up until he re-married a few years ago. But he made more of an effort and we rebuilt our relationship. We’re now quite close and I see him often. He’s still got a bitter streak against my mum. But keeps it under control.

My point is, let him do as he please. The only person he’s really going to hurt at the end of the day is himself- the best thing you can do for your children is support them. If they want to see him, great. But if and probably when they decide they don’t want to go there anymore because of how he acts, support them. Don’t force it just because he is there father.

But surely they're little minds and nervous systems and everything else will be fucked up by dealing with his poor behaviour by themselves every weekend or whatever he demands?

The difference is that right now their nervous system and brain never get to experience safety. They have no respite.

So never get to come out of high-alert, hypervigilance, threat status.

That's what causes the most damage.

Of course the ideal is that they never have to deal with a shit dad. We would all want that for you and for them.

But if 5 days a week or 12 days a fortnight they experience safety all day and all night - and always know when they are in less stable environments that they are returning to safety soon - then they get to return to a normal safe state.

Their brains and nervous systems get to develop healthily. Their bodies aren't perpetually flooded with adrenaline and cortisol.

The normalisation of his behaviour is separate but again, when they are immersed in it 24/7 they have no perspective on how life should be. You could explain normal behaviour but they wouldn't be able to understand because it would make no sense in the world they know.

If they are only exposed to it every other week they can see it is not normal and get to return to normality afterwards. Like having a bad day at school or work - it is a blip that feels rubbish for a short period but passes.

The point where they will be able to make their own decision about whether to spend time there will also arrive faster than it feels now.

When the majority of their time is spent in a safe home feeling safe and not having to walk on eggshells, and you are free to provide age appropriate explanations on his behaviour and why it's not ok then they get to heal from any damage they've experienced so far. And you can genuinely mitigate for the little bit of shitty behaviour they do witness.

Yes, it still has some effect if their dad is a dick every other weekend, but if the majority of their life is spent experiencing safety then no, it doesn't "fuck them up" in the same way as permanently being on high alert 24/7 because home is so stressful and unpredictable.

Surely you can see the difference in effect if a body is flooded with adrenaline and cortisol 24/7 with no break, compared to only occasionally? You know how it affects you to live like this, right?

It may not have come across that way, but I really don't underestimate the turmoil you are experiencing. I get that this is a horrible position to be in, and I get that you want to protect your children. All I am trying to say is that despite your best intentions and best efforts it is not possible to protect a child living like this (nobody could) - but you can if you leave.

Most of the time in life we aren't presented with choosing between a terrible path and a perfect path, we get two non-ideal paths and have to choose the least bad option.

Leaving and allowing them to have a safe home - a safe haven as a pp put it - and honest information is transformative once you get past the adjustment period and is the least bad option by a very wide mark. It will be tough for you to see that while you're still immersed in this yourself, but it is the better option.

The strength of my reply is because I fear that you will stay on the terrible path indefinitely delaying and hoping a perfect path appears if you wait long enough. Unfortunately I don't think there will be one, but there is a much better, happier path available (albeit not as ideal as we would wish).

I wish you all the best and hope that you are able to find your way out and forward.

Again, perfect advice. Think this should go into Classics or something.

OP I think the problem when you’re at the stage you are (as I was about 11 yrs ago, although my kids were a couple of years older than yours), is that you focus on the more visible harms he might do them, let’s take as an example, not feeding them. But actually it’s the invisible harms which are more damaging long term - presuming that he would get round to feeding them something eventually, and if he didn’t, you’d have a great and legal reason not to make them available for contact.

However the emotional manipulation etc which may go on is much easier to deal with once you’re out of it and able to create Stable Home, as others have said.