Is this abusive behaviour, or narcissism?

[StartingAgain33]

• on our first date, we were kissing passionately for ages. I made it clear I didn't want him touching my knickers under my dress. He kept trying and right at the end as we went to walk to the train station he had a little touch as I was walking away
• he started getting sexual a bit faster than I had expected. I did end up responding but felt rushed
• he would make big statements like he wanted to be with me for the rest of his life, he wanted to grow old with me and buy a house with me, he wouldn't mind if I got pregnant accidentally in the first three months (whilst drunk he suggested we stop using contraception)
• after 4 months he suggested we move in together, I said I felt it was a little soon especially as we had been having a bit of a stressful time (he found me being upset about my sick kittens very distressing and almost had a mini breakdown about it saying he was worried he would lose me / we were drifting apart) and also I was about to buy my own place. Then the next week he said we 'needed to stop talking about the future', that we'd been going too fast, that he doesn't know if he can keep up with my timeline, that he feels pressured etc. I pointed out that he had led those conversations, not me, and he said that wasn't true and it was just as much me starting them (I really don't think it was)
• I caught him messaging women flame emojis and sleazy comments / inane chat (by accident). It had been a few months before and had since stopped but I got very upset and angry and he turned it back one me, saying I was snooping (I really wasnt) and I was paranoid etc and it was harmless, he was just 'passing on compliments'. Also when I confronted him about it straight after seeing and said I wanted to see what he had been saying he went and deleted them in the toilet buy tried to hide he was doing that
• frequent mood swings, not necessarily directed at me but there was always a drama. Towards the end he went from long angry texts to sending me a voice note where he sounded fine and asking me to go to his friends bday all in the space of an hour which I found v confusing
• he was crap at emotional validation, for instance forgetting he was going to meet me after my uncles funeral and saying could we rearrange as he had forgotten he was going to see his friends. He then did feel very sorry when I got upset but it was like he had no empathy (he did really try to have it tho)
• he'd get very upset when I was emotional and not know what to do. He did try but towards rhe end of our relationship he told me he just wanted to leave me alone if I was crying and I should be more adult
• he once got really angry with me saying 'I made him feel ashamed' because I pointed out that something he did could be seen as racist. He said he felt he couldn't share any of his past with me because of this one comment as I would twist it. He would go on about things like that for hours and not let me get a word in
• our final straw was when I said I was sad about something. It was probs me being sensitive and unreasonable but he said I made him feel like shit, and he kept sending long angry texts to me even tho I was saying sorry ans trying to calm him down. This basically carried on on and off for two weeks, with the smallest comment from me ('let me know when you're around to talk in person') was interpreted in tbe worst way possible ('you don't trust me and are trying to control me')
• he would often never let me get a word in in arguments, especially towards the end
• he was preoccupied with the idea I was controlling him. I asked him to turn his phone notifications off as they went off all the time including in bed and he thought that I was trying to change who he was. He kept bringing that up as an example even months later. I said if it mattered that much then fine, just leave them, but he did change them but was angry about it
• he once joked he'd have sex with me anyway when I wasn't up for it and I said that would be rape (in a jokey way). He then got really upset I would ever accuse him of rape and he woke up in the middle of the night and was just sitting in the living room in the dark. I asked him what was wrong and he said I was trying to control him and he couldn't believe what I'd said, that I didn't trust him, that he couldn't do anything right
• he hadn't had a relationship over a decade and it sounds like they went v fast. Like moved in straightaway etc. He said they had hurt him so much he hasn't wanted a relationship, that they had all cheated on him and said nasty things like hes 'weird' (he was a bit weird), 'only ever spoke about work' (true) and 'didn't listen to their body' (true). He also called 2 out of 3 'princesses'
• he seemed to have loads of shame underneath the surface. Even a comment that had nothing to do with him seemed to be taken personally
• he constantly talked about our future together, but also had real problems imagining the next step and would bring it up a lot (ie I don't know if I can move to your part of London etx) which made me feel like I never knew where I stood
• he said I was his 'saviour' and he didn't know what he would do without me. I do think he was a very lonely man. I have a hunch that a lot of friends had ditched him over the years.
• he said we needed to break up because of my 'emotional validation' needs and he can't give me that, and broke up with me in a 16 minute voice note where he sounded cold and uncaring saying we didn't need to talk

I still have lots of sympathy for him and miss him. He did really try and meet me emotionally, but seemed incapable of doing so. I am wondering whether it was just a character mismatch or whether objectively this looks like abuse. I know I feel confused ans awful about myself for things falling apart and like it's my fault.

• oh and also he was very sensitive to noise and movement, and struggled to sleep with me. So we didn't sleep in the same bed for the last six months. That's not his fault but it did add to my sense that he seemed just very very sensitive to everything and unable to handle very much. He blamed it on me, saying that I have a twitching problem and need to get seen by a doctor and that I take up the bed. I definitely don't take up the bed, always wake up on the edge where I go to sleep, ans my friends have said I'm the calmest sleeper they've slept in the same bed as (on holidays etx). I think he was blaming me falsely

Doesn't matter - if he's got a personality disorder that makes him abusive, he's still abusive. If he's "just" abusive, hes still abusive. Either way, he won't change and the affect is the same.

The fallout of abuse is often the subject of it feels confused and it's their fault it happened. You just need to get away, stay away and give yourself a chance to recover.

It truly is all about him. As a previous better basically said a diagnosis is a red herring. You have mentioned a hell of a lot of red flags. You don’t need this and can do such better

It's definitely abusive behaviour. He sounds awful and you are much much better off without him.
Its not a "character mismatch" as the type of woman he clearly expects doesn't exist

• someone who will do whatever sexual activity he wants when he wants it
• someone whos chill about their partner messaging other women
• someone who needs no emotional validation and does not get upset when upsetting things happen
• someone who is at his beck and call and gives him space when he wants it but also moves in with him immediately
• someone who listens to all he says but doesn't talk

Basically he needs a sex robot

Thanks. I dont know why i need the external validation of people saying these actions are abusive or red flags but I feel like I just don't have a grip on reality and keep questioning myself and making things up

Thanks @quentinbunbury. The thing that hurts me the most is that he broke up with me because of my 'emotional validation needs' (actually I think he broke up with me cus I was just about to break up with him and he got in there first). My worst fear is that I am 'too much' and too insecure, so he really got me in the gut there

Abusive people know how to get you in the gut!
That’s all you need right there.
You will get over it.
Put his words right out of your mind

Your pain and confusion is just as valid whether he's a narcissist or not. You didn't deserve any of it and his motivation, his flaws, his personality make him no less responsible for the terrible way he treated you.

Hi @StartingAgain33 I’m sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour, and as others have said there’s no need to label it, to validate your feelings.

He made you uncomfortable, had no respect for your boundaries and used gaslighting on you.

There’s a great sticky post at the top of the relationships board called listen up or something like that, which is well worth a read. I’d also recommend the Freedom Programme which you can do online. It might help you feel stronger for the future and confident that you can spot red flags and end things sooner and safely when you’re ready to venture out dating again.

@rainbowshine I think maybe that's why I'm wondering, when I read that post he is nothing like as bad as any of the things listed, and I think he really did want to be a good boyfriend ans tried very hard but just couldn't 'do' emotions... hence wondering if this was just a mismatch and no real red flags

A mismatch implies two things:

a) There is someone out there who would be happy and comfortable living with him like this - very unlikely.

Or

B) There was something about you that brought that behaviour out of him - also untrue. His behaviour comes from the core and very deep down.

I really understand where you are coming from, I feel the exact same way about my ex. I stayed for so long because I felt sorry for him being so tortured by his own emotions and I was such a burden on him. That comes from entitlement, a belief system where they are justified in hurting others to make themselves feel better and angry when you aren't setting yourself on fire to keep them warm.

I am reading a book see what you made me do by Jess Hill and it describes my ex to a tee. I really recommend it as well as Why does he do that? By Lundy Bancroft.

No, OP, you have listed a huge amount of emotionally abusive behaviours from this guy. There are tons and tons of red flags. The fact you spent so much of your time confused and feeling wrong-footed is a red flag in itself.

Christ, he "joked" about raping you and when you named it as such, turned it round on you and sat up in the dark like a fucking psycho.

Have a look at Lundy Bancroft's abuser profiles - you might find him there - I think he's a Mr Sensitive intheknowwithro.blogspot.com/2014/02/nine-types-of-abusers-who-are-you.html

Dear lord. Worrying you even have to ask? Is your ability to judge a situation something you struggle with?

Man is a nut. Abusive to the core. Kicked you emotionally with a parting gift to make you doubt yourself. For me it's more about why you can't see that for yourself.

Love and trust yourself more. Did you feel alive, safe and loved with him? No. So bin it and move on and listen to your gut more.

[quote StartingAgain33]@rainbowshine I think maybe that's why I'm wondering, when I read that post he is nothing like as bad as any of the things listed, and I think he really did want to be a good boyfriend ans tried very hard but just couldn't 'do' emotions... hence wondering if this was just a mismatch and no real red flags[/quote]

You need to wise up.

It was not a mismatch. He didn’t respect your boundaries from the start with the pants touching that you had said no to. He talked about raping you. He twisted everything to blame you when it was him. He emotionally abused you. You can never change or save or rescue someone like that. It’s not you and it’s not your fault. Block him and no contact with him. Tell friends that he might try to get to you through that you would prefer that they didn’t talk about you to him or pass messages to you from him. He’s out of your life. Focus your energy on you, not him or how you could “help” him be better. Look at the books and other things we’ve highlighted. Help yourself first, just like the advice for oxygen and life jackets.

You can accept someone’s behaviour was not right for you and not what you wanted and made you feel like shit and for that to be valid without needing to diagnose them with something like being a narcissist you know. That you seem to need that validation is a bit worrying - where is your self-worth and boundaries?

I only read the first paragraph. Please find someone nice.

Thanks everyone. This was really useful. My key takeaway is my feelings are okay to listen to even if things are not officially 'abuse'! He was brilliant at gaslighting me and in the process I lost a sense of what I felt. I dont know how these people do this. I don't even think it was premeditated. Weird how the same pattern arises across so many people. I wonder what percentage of the male population is narcissistic, from these threads it seems worryingly high! I might give up dating and just accept defeat.

Did you almost post about him after getting dumped via voice note?

You really need to look at your understanding of abuse. You seem to be saying it wasn't abuse, yet in the next breath you say he gaslighted you to hell - gaslighting is emotional abuse.

I don't honestly believe that many abusive people either think they are abusive nor premeditate what they do, it's just what comes naturally, like breathing, the only way they know how to be.

@StartingAgain33

Thanks. I dont know why i need the external validation of people saying these actions are abusive or red flags but I feel like I just don't have a grip on reality and keep questioning myself and making things up

I'd say it's 95% likely that the reason you need external validation is because when you were a child, you were not taught and shown that your feelings were a priority.

Would you say that was accurate for you?

Yes @thefoundations. I think my mum did not emotionally 'meet me' as a child. My dad was very affectionate but not around really apart from weekends. In all honesty I can't remember very much of my mum growing up, apart from a couple of times getting told off badly and unfairly and being taken the piss out of a lot by my family. I know I have always had a bad relationship with her. We don't get on at all. She never listens. Tbh ex reminds me of her in that way

I wonder what percentage of the male population is narcissistic, from these threads it seems worryingly high! I might give up dating and just accept defeat

Keep in mind that the happy couple, or the 2 million happy couples, do not spend their time posting on forums about their relationship problems. These threads are not a cross section. They are a filter, in which only the troubled comment.

With regard to your greatest fear, of being 'too much', who sets the rules about 'how much' you should be?

I dont know... I think I didn't feel that until going out with a couple of guys that couldn't handle any insecurity or shows of weakness, it's affected me long term and ironically I keep going for people who seem to fit all of the criteria for being on the spectrum and who often have never had a long term relationship even though they are 30s 40s. I know I need to change this and I don't know why I find them so attractive when I'm the complete opposite!

OK. So, firstly, you're following some rules that were set by some blokes from your past who couldn't handle your feelings. Is that right?

Secondly, whose rules do you think you should be following?