EA narrative backsliding?

[MontanaHana]

Does anyone have any experience of this or could they link to any information about it?

We are supposedly recovering though he still struggles to see it as an EA/EA territory. I think it was borderline, and unlike any other friendship I've seen him in: high levels of out if hours chatty/flirty messaging, it caused him to feel guilty and to lie and keep things from me, and he admits the lying/minimising was because he was worried that I "would think he was going along with her obviously fancying him". (For the record, no jealousy/OW drama in our relationship before this - all this hit me like a tonne of bricks when I cottoned on).

He agreed during therapy that the level of contact/nature of contact with her was "too much" and a "grey area", but more recently and since therapy has ended he seems to be saying that what was driving him was less about anything possibly EA-related and more about other circumstancial factors to do with acceptance.

I have pointed out that it is not necessarily one or the other, that from my perspective I believe the "other factors" are significant but that I see them as having led to EA behaviours with this woman. Despite his past admissions, then, about grey areas/"too much"/knowing I wouldn't like it but continuing anyway and hiding it, it feels to me like he is backtracking.

We have been doing well recently and I am a bit surprised to feel him trying to pedal back so much from any suggestion of emotional infidelity. If anything, I thought he would be more equipped now to handle conversing about this stuff with me. Part of my recovery was based on his acknowledgement of those aspects of what happened, even if we don't agree on the labels. But the gulf between our understandings seems to be widening again.

He has just confused me by suggesting that he felt pressured during therapy into saying some of those things (eg. being actively intrigued by and validating her apparently "not just friends" interest in him). I asked him to clarify what he means by this, as it is at odds with what I have been led to understand, but he is shutting down emotionally again just like in the beginning, saying he can't handle talking about it.

I don't know what to think. It's like the acknowledgement/ability to discuss things openly and "honestly" was only temporary or perhaps not so honest at all. Is it because he can't bear the guilt/being the bad guy or something? Does this make any sense? To be clear, I am not so worried about categorisation of EA or not, just concerned that again he seems to want to downplay the significance of the dodgier bits of his behaviour, to explain them away as something other than EA-like behaviours, despite what appeared like progress in the other direction during therapy.

Life's too short. Break up.

Agree with pp, it all seems like hard work.

Long and complicated I know... but not in a position to leave just yet and we have come a long way in many respects. I don't understand what is going on now though, I expected gradual progress not backtracking on things already discussed (accompanied by "why do we have to talk about it again, we have discussed it hundreds of times" no less! Err... Well despite those hundreds of discussions you appear to be changing your take on things!)

He's changing the narrative so when he does it again he can feign ignorance and put the blame elsewhere

I'd be surprised. He has been really stressed by it all and claims to want our relationship more than anything. I'm not sure he would risk doing it again... which makes the backtracking quite difficult to understand. He knows that things have got better the more transparent/open he's been. Why start reversing that now, causing uncertainty about it etc?

Are your confusing your ‘not in a position to leave yet’ with not actually wanting to be in this relationship?

Can’t help but find myself in a similar situation to you if it’s any consolation.
My husband was messaging a female colleague to help them through a tough time. She subsequently came on to him and he rebuffed her but continued to message and support her for months afterwards. He did this secretly and I only became aware when I saw large no of notifications popping up from late at night. I myself had had a difficult time (my dad had passed away, personal health issues and daughter away overseas at Christmas) and felt a lack of support from him. I have been unhappy for quite a long time and have felt so far down his list of priorities so it really stung and I felt he was enjoying having his ego stroked. He is adamant it wasn’t an EA as he was just being a friend and kept it quiet because he didn’t want to worry me and is apparently happy in our relationshi. He makes me feel that I am unreasonable and have over reacted (and maybe I have) but I feel what I feel. I think he is minimising what he’s done and doesn’t want to look at his motives behind the secrecy. He barely keeps up with male friends let alone a distant colleague so something piqued his interest….
He has no idea how much this has affected me and I am not sure how I feel about him anymore to be honest.

He agreed during therapy that the level of contact/nature of contact with her was "too much" and a "grey area", but more recently and since therapy has ended he seems to be saying that what was driving him was less about anything possibly EA-related and more about other circumstancial factors to do with acceptance

What does this mean? Sounds like you are being bullshitted, and this sounds gaslighty to me. At the very least, it's denial that what he did was inappropriate. He should be bending over backwards to reassure you about this, and he isn't.

Sorry to hear that @TheStirrer. I recognise much of what you write. Though my OH is very much aware of how badly his behaviour has affected me. Another reason why I'm surprised at the apparent "babysteps backtracking". Thought we'd got somewhere with it.

To give just one example of his contradictions... I have two letters from him, one old one recent. The older one pinpoints a day/occasion and says "this is when I started to suspect she fancied me" and proceeds to apologise for continuing contact/validation of her behaviour after that. The more recent one says "i don't think I ever considered that she might like me as more than a friend, I was just caught up in feeling good about being accepted". I mean, what do I do with this? He's angry/sulky that I point out contradictions like this. I also don't get why he would go back on his "disclosures" after so long...

Does he have a habit of rewriting the narrative of past events/feelings?

To some extent this is human nature - pretty sure we've all said at some point "I knew when X happened that I was making a mistake buying this car/renting this house/choosing this school/resigning from this job" when in fact we had no idea. We're just viewing the past through the prism of the present.

However that does mean in this case that he's likely to be ignoring the lessons he should be learning from this. I believe the idea of pinpointing things like "This was the moment I knew she fancied me" is so you can recognise the danger points in future and take action to avoid endangering your monogamous relationship. Not so you can decide "actually I had no idea so it's not my fault, stop going on at me, I didn't fuck her did I?"

Also what does he mean about being "accepted"? Is he trans? Disabled? BAME? Non NT?

The being accepted thing is linked to worrying he wouldn't fit in after a few years in a difficult workplace that he recently moved on from. I think it all started with this woman when she "welcomed" him, and gave him validation as a person/employee he had been missing before. It's just she soon started giving a little extra (constant texting, bigging him up, fun little flirtatious convos on evenings and weekends) which he failed to extricate himself from and eventually began validating and seeking from her/hiding minimising to me.

From what you have said he either genuinely doesn't feel responsible and was previously lying to you to get the relationship back on track / the spotlight off him. OR he is lying now as he doesn't like the narrative that he was the bad guy. OR he was telling the truth before, but has thought about it and now changed his mind.

Whichever it is, it doesn't bode well. At a time when he should be fighting for your relationship / to prove himself to you / grateteful you've given him another chance, he's trying to shift the narrative so he wasn't, after all, guilty.

If you accept his new narrative, then he will see the sign that he can do the 'EA' thing again - after all, you accepted that it was OK last time. For the r'ship to work and success, he has to accept what he did wrong and own it.

*succeed not success

Could the backsliding be a natural result of him gradually realising the potential consequences of his behaviour? If he is ashamed, or kicking himself, for allowing events to occur in the way they did, do you think it might be likely that he is re-writing the narrative inside his head to make himself feel better?

@Thinkingoutsidethebox I think this is highly likely. Unfortunately, I'm not comfortable with this lack of authenticity. It denies what I've been put through and mocks my forgiveness. I just want an honest relationship.

This looks like a fake reconciliation. Fake reconciliations are common and instead of seeing genuine remorse and attempts to build trust you see the cheater creating more distrust and more distance in a passive aggressive way.

Because despite what they say, many cheaters don't actually want to be forgiven. They want the relationship to end. And if it doesn't end on D day they often ensure it ends later by backtracking, trickle truthing or more infidelity.

Who arranged therapy? Because he's telling you he wasn't really engaging in it or being honest. Hes telling you he was lying in therapy and telling you and the therapist what you wanted to hear. I would be really upset because its another betrayal and more deception.

There is a big difference between not wanting a divorce and wanting to be married. It's likely he doesn't want a divorce because of the financial consequences but equally does not want to be married anymore. On the back of an Ea you do not go out of your way to tell your spouse you've been lying again.

In your position I would waste no more time discussing this nonsense. Accept what he's saying which is he's not committed to saving the marriage and use your energy to get out of the situation or to emotionally detatch. I don't think this man has a genuine interest in repairing your marriage.

Sorry you're going through this.

The contradiction (he suspects she fancies him/he didn't think he ever considered the woman liked him more than just friends) is certainly peculiar!
Because it is so peculiar, he must have a reason for this U-turn. I cannot think what reason he would have.
By changing the narrative about her, I wonder if he is protecting her somewhat? I am just trying to think how I'd feel about her if I thought of her fancying my partner, compared to someone who only wanted to be friends. With the first option, the blame is on her. With the second option, the blame is moved away from her.

Interesting take @thinkingoutsidethebox (you do your username justice!).

I'll ponder this. It is also possible that the suspecting/not suspecting contradiction is about protecting himself. His continuing with her is less bad if he hadn't considered she fancied him and worse if he suspected she did. He admitted the latter to our therapist but, again, I thought we had worked through it. Why change the narrative now, as we are getting better? I'm at a real loss about what to think or take as true.

I don't think it's possible in a long-term relationship always to be authentic, totally open, never dissembling or glossing over what you know would upset your dp. Apart from anything else, the other person's feelings aren't always valid. He knows this, because he's not in danger of having an affair with A.N.Other, but bringing it into the open will start alarm bells ringing. I don't think someone's insecurities should trump the other person's right to have close relationships with other people.

It's impossible for a couple to be everything to each other. In this case, the work colleague could fulfil a need that you were unqualified to fill because she had close-hand experience of his work environment. When she became a friend as well as a colleague, he was able to open up more to her than to you because not only had background information but was on his side.

Crossing a line, for me, would have been if he had discussed his relationship with you with her.

I think he is back-tracking now because you are pushing too hard. He doesn't feel he was emotionally unfaithful to you. At the beginning, he was desperate to make you feel better. But now he feels that you will never be satisfied. You're pick, pick, picking at a scab instead of leaving it to heal.

On occasion (and I'm not saying this is definitely the case here, but maybe worth considering) people acquiesce to interpretations that are not actually true for them in order to keep the peace and move forward and then they regret that they've compromised themselves like that and backtrack.

Now if this is the case then he shouldn't have done that at the time obviously - he should have been clear on his stance and let it lead to a relationship breakdown if the two of you couldn't reconcile your interpretations. But yeah, some people do unusual things for an easy life / to keep the peace and then end up feeling that actually, they have been gas lit into agreeing to a version of the past that isn't true for them, feel resentful that they are in that situation and subsequently seek to correct it.

Again, obviously, I am not saying that this is what has happened, but this sort of scenario is a possibility.

But @ThymeOut he lied to me. Hid his phone from me to cover up the intensity of the messaging/his stringing her along. Made things up. Told me I was crazy for even asking. Ignored me in our own home in order to message with her, despite seeing her all day at work and being due to see her the next day. Felt guilty on his own accord before I even found out. Has subtly changed his story over several months. It's not just that she met some professional need I couldn't, its that whatever that was HE percieved himself to be in violation of our relationship. I would be happy if it was simply a good work bond that uplifted him, but it wasn't just that because that wouldn't have led to all the above...

@suggestionsplease1 if what you're saying is true and it may well be, then i just think even less of him. As well as lying initially, that would mean he compounded things with further lies while allowing us to spend over 1k on therapy that we could barely afford.

@MontanaHana

But *@ThymeOut* he lied to me. Hid his phone from me to cover up the intensity of the messaging/his stringing her along. Made things up. Told me I was crazy for even asking. Ignored me in our own home in order to message with her, despite seeing her all day at work and being due to see her the next day. Felt guilty on his own accord before I even found out. Has subtly changed his story over several months. It's not just that she met some professional need I couldn't, its that whatever that was HE percieved himself to be in violation of our relationship. I would be happy if it was simply a good work bond that uplifted him, but it wasn't just that because that wouldn't have led to all the above...

I think a core difficulty here is that he is simply unreliable. He is not able to give a definitive statement on what is true for him. You don't know he felt guilty before you found out - that's something he has told you at some point for whatever reason, possibly true, possibly not, and the report on that is liable to change as well.

Now sometimes people become unreliable, or their unreliability is exacerbated, by feeling unduly pressurised by someone else and that someone else's standards that they know they can't live up to....othertimes they are just simply unreliable inherently and prone to the same sort of narrative shifting regardless of the context. But either way it sounds like he doesn't have the sort of integrity that you need from a person - and perhaps even if he feels that he has been pushed around - you don't want to be with someone who can be pushed around?

Gosh this all sounds like a lot of hard work. Pp was right, life is too short. If someone can’t be arsed with you then why bother with them? I’d end it. Move on.