Elderly Neighbour/Party Wall Agreement/I lost it today

[UndercoverToad]

We have been trying to convert our loft for about two years now. We have planning permission, but neighbour would only agree to an Agreed Surveyor if we changed them - which we did.
DP does odd jobs for neighbour and we were on good terms - although I hadn’t brought up conversion for a while due to Covid.
Spoke about it again a couple of weeks ago and neighbour not happy.
Today she came out and asked me to cut back a bush overhanging her garden. I agreed. But - feeling pissed of - I pointed out that her builder (repaired her driveway) had knocked out 2 bricks in our front wall.
I then spoke about the conversion and party wall agreement stating ‘it’s probably a similar process as to when you had your extension done’ - to which she said ‘I’m not going to talk about it - speak to my solicitor (she means surveyor).
I’ve just screwed up haven’t I???

I was trying to keep on good terms but now I think I’ll be paying for two surveyors….

@Sonarl

Nobody should agree to an Agreed Surveyor imo. If a Party Wall is needed because a neighbour wants to do some work on their property whcih will benefit them and increase the value of their property, with absolutely no benefit to the neighbours who will experience inconvenience and noise that is nothing to do with them, then they should have an independent surveyor that the other side should pay for. That's the point of the Party Wall agreement, to protect their interests in an independent manner.

Our neighbors tried to get us to agree to an Agreed Surveyor who turned out to be the woman's Dad!

This is exactly the sort of vindictive, petty attitude which has made party wall issues so ridiculous, and created an entire industry to stoke up neighbourly disputes

95% of party wall requests could be agreed between neighbours with a surveyor proving the building method won't cause any issues to the joint wall, and agreeing that any issues such as cracking, will be repaired by the side doing the building.

It doesn't matter if the surveyor is the dad, brother or pet cat of the client. It's just to show there has been thought given to the construction process so it won't cause structural problems to the joint wall/foundations/whatever

But there seems to now be a frankly pathetic idea that no one should be allowed to get any benefit without suffering a bit in the process and therefore should have to fork out £2k for needless fees

We had a neighbour apply for planning and had a dozen ambulance chasing letters isn the post from party wall surveyors offering to act for us, and warning our house would fall down if we didn't appoint someone.

It is totally unnecessary
The party wall act was designed to mediate for actual problems, not to be a first port of call whenever a neighbour is doing work. The whole system is now totally abused by bitter and jealous neighbours

Totally disagree with you on that. It sprung up because of too many initially friendly agreements between neighbours going wrong when there was unanticipated damage and /or the building neighbours took the piss with builders access, noise and mess.

Change your plans back to what you want and go for two solicitors.

@Sonarl - it was there when we moved in - but what I object to that she’s extended and not sought the appropriate consents. We are trying to do things the right way, but she’s being difficult about it.

@timeisnotaline we just can’t afford that. The architect and structural engineer would have to replan it, and we’ve paid for a full plan check from building control. It would all need to be done again.

@Sonarl

Totally disagree with you on that. It sprung up because of too many initially friendly agreements between neighbours going wrong when there was unanticipated damage and /or the building neighbours took the piss with builders access, noise and mess.

But a party wall award doesn't cover noise and mess?

So you are proving the point... Neighbour 1 is worried about noise and mess, so does a preemptive strike to get one back on neighbour 2 by making them fork out thousands in fees so they feel better about the noise and mess when it happens

That is NOTHING to do with a party wall, and everything to do with being really really petty and vindictive

I know but you objecting to it retrospectively is pretty pointless, nothing will happen unless it's a major transgression. if you want your extension done, just do it properly with 2 independent surveyors. She's never going to go for the friendly neighborly agreement now, as you've pissed her off, rightly or wrongly, so you just need to be pragmatic about it. issue a new party wall notice (surely old one has expired?), get it all sorted and a proper party wall award done and move on with your plans. Remember, having 2 independent surveyors protects you from her as much as the other way round - they will take photos and document everything so if she starts making spurious complaints and saying youve damaged her foundations when you haven't, you won't have to deal with it, they will.

As others have said, the extra 2k or whatever is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of your extension and the value of that extension, and is pretty much a given sunken cost now for most extensions, just do it properly and officially and get on with your lives.

@Sparechange yes! And she won’t feel better, she’ll be on to the surveyor about every little thing. And we’ll pay for that…

It’s a pay by hour surveyor that she has appointed.

All the more reason to get it pushed through and done and dusted and the award agreed as quickly as possible surely?

She won't have the surveyor on retainer, it will be up to and including the award and then a number of agreed site visits thereafter.

[quote UndercoverToad]@Sparechange yes! And she won’t feel better, she’ll be on to the surveyor about every little thing. And we’ll pay for that…[/quote]
But she can't

The surveyor isn't there to police the day to day build.

All she can do is claim for damage afterwards and ask for it to be repaired. And the state of her property would be photographed and documented before the work starts, and would then be assessed by a surveyor afterwards

She can't just summon in her surveyor if she thinks they are doing something that displeases her

I hope so @Sonarl! Thanks you you and everyone @Sparechange. That is really useful. I’ll email the surveyor over the weekend and get ball rolling.

I just don’t know how to ‘play’ it. Say nothing and keep things purely professional - or point out when she is being unfair/be more assertive.

The whole bush thing REALLY pissed me off - it’s literally a few leaves. So I pointed out the missing bricks. DP thinks it would have come across as confrontational. It probably was. But I don’t want to be a pushover, and think I should point out the double standards!

She’d be fuming if we’d knocked bricks out of her front wall!!!

I'd pay for the 2 surveyors - it will cost you more but you will be regaining control of your build. Stop doing her any favours and once you have your agreement, put in a complaint about her extension to the planning department.

She is clearly not very nice, and expects to be able to call the shots

But you can't win her over with favours, so I would really stop putting yourself out for her now

When she asks you to cut the bushes, you say 'I think the law says that anything on your side of the boundary is yours to deal with, so I'm afraid we are going to have to leave that to you'

I'm sure the builders doing your loft can find a couple of extra bricks for you to repair your wall, so don't let that stress you out, but absolutely no more mrs nice Toad. Any more shit from her gets dealt with straight away via the proper channels, because she isn't reasonable enough to have an informal agreement.

I'd not let the bricks go either. Tell her she has to get her builder back and put it right or you will take legal action against her. I'd go full on nuclear. I'd have some sympathy re her concerns if she had done things properly herself.

Can I just ask the relevance of her age? Is being 'elderly' pertinent to the facts?

Your NDN sounds like the kind of asshole mine used to be. I used to dread going into the garden because she would pop up from behind the fence like a bloody zombie always with something to whinge about. In the end I put in a much higher fence that she could not peep over.

There have been quite a few fallings out over the years - mainly due to her sending work people onto my property without permission. I eventually sent her a strongly worded "Cease and Desist" with a threat of legal action and took great satisfaction in telling her to F off.

Never be a people pleaser or too soft with over entitled neighbours as they will take it as a sign of weakness. I know that mine would now think very carefully about knocking on my door.

There is an expectation in society that we ought to be nice to the elderly, accommodating to the possibility that they don't appreciate how times have changed and are expecting things to be done as they were in the past. Society gives leeway to the elderly that the young wouldn't get. It's a disingenuous question. Neighbour's age could well have a bearing on whether the OP feels she is reacting appropriately.

I think when you do extensions you should factor in extra surveyor anyway
if your money plan is so tight - God help you because building costs are going up & there can always be unexpected expenses. I hope you have a builder's quote already & are not just basing this on what your architect estimates because its not uncommon to find they underestimate (experience of this)

@BaileysforBreakfast

Can I just ask the relevance of her age? Is being 'elderly' pertinent to the facts?

It may be relevant in that she can be nasty and malicious to OP but then play the poor weak little old lady card in front of a third party.

All of the above and start saying no to whatever she asks. Reclaim your time and home.
Or sell up.

Patup It may be relevant in that she can be nasty and malicious to OP but then play the poor weak little old lady card in front of a third party.

Phoniness/mendacity/deviousness are not traits that are limited to the elderly. Her age is irrelevant here.

And no, MrsGeneHunt - it's not a disingenuous question. It's clear that we were meant to infer something from the mention of the neighbour being 'elderly'. Either that or it's completely irrelevant.

I think I'd cut my losses and move house.

It is a disingenuous question. It is accusing the OP if being ageist without having the gumption to outright say it.
Age is relevant in society - rightly or wrongly age is one of the factors which society uses in order to determine interactions.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I'd not let the bricks go either. Tell her she has to get her builder back and put it right or you will take legal action against her. I'd go full on nuclear. I'd have some sympathy re her concerns if she had done things properly herself.

But wouldn't it be the builder that was legally liable, not her? Did she instruct.them to knock the bricks out an throw them away?