Can a marriage really survive without sex?

[Moomin]

Friend of mine is very lacking in self-esteem and self-confidence. She also hasn't had sex since before her dd (3 and a half)was born. She and her dh have issue with the two kids' sleeping arrangements; they both get into bed with her in the night and they all end up playing 'musical beds' until they get some sleep. But part of me thinks it 'suits' her not to have the kids sleeping in their own beds so she doesn't have to face sleeping in the same bed as her all night.

She says she enjoyed sex when they 1st got together but that she never really fancied her dh and since the kids came along she's just not interested at all. Her dh is a nice bloke who still obviously loves and fancies her. She says she can't ever see herself wanting sex with him again and thinks maybe he deserves to find another relationship where he can enjoy a healthy sex life, but admits she'd hate it if they split up.

I suggested counselling to her (which she's said her dh would be willing to do) but she recoiled from the idea and said she thinks they'd make her do all sorts of 'foreplay-type stuff' and touching which she said she'd refuse to do.

She's a lovely girl and I'd love to be able to advise her but I can't imagine not wanting to have sex with my own dh - I know how much intimacy and love it promotes in our relationship, so I'm probably not the best person to give any support maybe? I feel sorry for both of them; I feel like they're both missing out, and more seriously, their marriage is slowly slipping away. I've seriously wondered about writing to Gok about her!!

I think the problem is when a couple first get together the passion is strong, i.e. sex all the time kinda thing but as time goes by the sex gets less & less and if she wasn't in love with him to begin with (only in lust) I can't see her marriage lasting tbh.

3 and a half years is a long time to go without sex in a marriage. What has her DH got to say about it?

Moomin, your friend sounds a bit like I was -I never really fancied my exh but he was a lovely man and a good husband and father EXCEPT that we stopped having sex (his choice, not mine) during my pregnancy and split up 10 years later when I had an affair with an exbf whom I DID fancy, and who is now my dp. If your friend really wants to keep her marriage, she does need to seek help, or she or her husband may drift on until one of them meets someone else, or they just have a lifetime of no more intimacy, which would be so sad. I'm sure the counsellor wouldn't insist on foreplay-type stuff until the relationship had been explored from other angles.

A friend said to me the other day that she never feels like sex but always enjoys it by the end!

I think so much of sex is in your head that if you really want to make your marriage work you do need to work hard at getting your head in the right place to have sex. If your friend is serious about wanting her marriage to survive then I think she is being unfair in making her DH do without sex, no matter what she feels. And because I think sex is a profoundly bonding thing for a marriage, then a good sex life can help glue you together - although of course it's not the only thing.

How serious is she about wanting to stay together?

I'm not sure. I really don't think the 'love' she has for her dh is the type I could put up with as far as either of them goes. My first marriage was to a lovely lovely bloke and we got on brilliantly, but we really should have been flatmates or something because the sex took a dive after a few years and never picked up again. It was indicative of other things that were wrong and we never tackled them, and the marriage ended.

I know her dh is well up for it and has made it clear that he fancies her and finds her attractive still. Just not sure how long he'll wait. I think he deserves to have a sex life - he's only 42, and the thought of no more sex until you die is a wee bit unreasonable, I think! I think they just 'exist' most of the time. He won't push things too much because he's scared of losing her and she doesn't want to confront issues; she'd rather bury her head in the sand. Not good though is it?

No Moomin, it's not good. My ex said at the end that he'd resigned himself to no sex just for the sake of staying married to me. Only, he never asked ME whether I was happy with the idea!! He was a lovely lovely man too, but like you, we should have remained mates. I know some people have very content marriages with 'mates', but I think one deserves a mate in the truer sense of the word. My dp & I have had our ups and downs in the past year, adjusting to living together (he's over 50 and this is the first time he's committed to a relationship, so he's finding it hard) but we REALLY fancy and love and respect each other, and want it to work. I just didn't feel that for my ex and I sense that your friend is the same. It just doesn't bode well - if she doesn't feel as strongly about him as he does for her, it may be fairer for both of them to set each other free. Some say (my mother did) that you should stick together for the children, but what example and standard is that setting for the children?

This bit stood out for me: "I suggested counselling to her (which she's said her dh would be willing to do) but she recoiled from the idea and said she thinks they'd make her do all sorts of 'foreplay-type stuff' and touching which she said she'd refuse to do."

I wonder if she has issues around touching and sex - maybe she was abused as a child? It does sound like she might benefit from talking to a professional about this stuff.

i think it depends on why there is no sex as to if relationship works without it.

DOn't think there's any suggestion of abuse - of course, you never really know if some one chooses not to tell you, but she's quite free about talking about her past sexual experience and the fact she and dh don't have sex. I'd have thought the whole topic of sex would be a bit more taboo for her if she'd been abused - but like I said I can't know for sure. But i do know a bit about her parents and I know that her dad is a miserable old scrote who's never happy unless he's moaning, and she's very close to her mum, but the mum has passed on her worry-and-apologise-for-everything gene to her daughter. Don't think she was ever encouraged or praised as a child and never had very high expectations for herself, reinforced by a lack of support and drive from her parents.

The key though to the sex thing is that she says her mum out the fear of god into her as a teenager about having sex - gave a her a message of DON'T DO IT AT ANY COSTS until she was married, and instilled an idea that sex is a chore to be endured when you're married rather than a recreational past-time! She did have sex before marriage and has had a couple of sexual partners, but I get the idea that she thinks sex is just unnecessary really and it gets on her nerves that her dh should put so much emphasis on it (not that he does really - he'd be quite happy with some rather than none).

I still think Gok might be a good idea!

"Don't think she was ever encouraged or praised as a child and never had very high expectations for herself, reinforced by a lack of support and drive from her parents.

The key though to the sex thing is that she says her mum out the fear of god into her as a teenager about having sex - gave a her a message of DON'T DO IT AT ANY COSTS until she was married, and instilled an idea that sex is a chore to be endured when you're married rather than a recreational past-time! She did have sex before marriage and has had a couple of sexual partners, but I get the idea that she thinks sex is just unnecessary really and it gets on her nerves that her dh should put so much emphasis on it (not that he does really - he'd be quite happy with some rather than none)".

Blimey moomin - are you talking about me?? I could have written this about myself.

Anyway, My DH is up for it any time wheras I only want it once a month when i am ovulating. The rest of the time it's his mags & hand i'm afraid.

You need to talk to her and ask her what her issues are with sex- for me I was raped 10 years ago and have a big problem with sex.
Good luck.

Moomin, that's so sad, I do feel sorry for her. I know I'll never spout such nonsense to my dd! My mum tried the same line - which said more about her own marriage than men in general - luckily it never washed with me. But I do think a lack of self-confidence & expectation sexually is at the bottom of your friend's problem. She does need to speak to someone and she's lucky to have you as a friend.

Yes, I think the message she got from her mum is a big part of the problem. Does she realise that, too? She might be able to work through this problem on her own, or with a therapist. If, of course, she wants to work through it.

THat's the probelm isn't it? She has lots of problems with the way her kids behave and talk to her but everytime me and another friend have offered advice (after her asking) with things like behaviour charts with her ds and with dealing with the kids in a more consistent way, she thanks us for the advice, acts on it for a few days and then stops, either because she can't or won't work at it. There's only so much we can do. If she doesn't follow stuff through then she'll continue to have these sorts of problems. Having said that, I think lot of it is because she doesn't have the confidence to see things through, it's like 'why should the kids listen to me?' so it's kind of understandable I guess? I don't know - I;ve always been very bossy and sure of myself!, so I can sympathise with her but not empathise.

She's been seeing a woman that she was referred to through the HV about the kids' sleeping and behaviour and this woman wants to see my friend on her own - she can obviously recognise that the problems sten from my friend, but she doesn't want to go alone. Can of worms and all that...

Yes, it can, even if that's not what you both want - it's a big compromise, but it can be done.

sounds like she needs a bit of a push - would she go with a friend - like you? I'm beginning to agree with the others that she may have a depression - can't summon up the oomph needed to pursue any course of action for long ....

Why does she have to though? The original question was can the marriage survive - in my experience it can, but that option doesn't seem to have been considered. If there is a psychological or physical reason why it causes her pain or anguish, why make things worse by fighting and trying, when in reality it may well make her more upset and more hurt.

Well, because it's not fair on her husband!

Something struck me the other day in the Times where someone said, your dh may not want to go out on the roof in the rain to fix a leak, but he'll do it out of duty.

I don't mean that women should have sex out of duty, but seeing it from the man's point of view, if he's not happy why should he make any effort to make her happy?

I doubt he wants to make her go through pain and emotional distress though

I tend to agree mumblechum but also with quietly. I do think it might be unfair on the man in the relationship, but the alternative is just as unfair.

I could quite happily never have sex again. Really. I don't want it and the enjoyment I get from it isn't enough to justify it from my POV. However I have to accept that in order to maintain a relationship it has to happen. That's OK. I accept that. But what hacks me off is that the attitude that says is there is something wrong with me. That I have something that needs fixing! I don't. That is just me atm. For whatever reason I have no sex drive. In every other way I am healthy and fit and happy. Sex is just a bit of me that isn't there just now. Why, apart from my relationship with my husband, is that such a bad thing. It sometimes feels as if I am contravening some unwritten taboo by not wanting it.

I'm just like ormirian at the moment too (steps out of shadow to offer moral support)

It's not a bad thing if you don't want sex - as everyone is different and has a different sex drive - as long as BOTH of you are happy with it. My marriage broke up because my husband didn't want it and I DID - so my concern for this lady is that, if her husband is only going along with her lack of desire because he loves and wants to keep her, the danger is that one day, years down the line (it took 7 in my case) he may find himself tempted elsewhere.

I don't think that's accptable, to be honest - and I suspect that men that do stray would do so whatever was happening within their relationship. I can understand the temptation - and I really really do understand the temptation, but like a lot of things in any relationship it is about making a decision about what is important. I can't think of an example, but we do as a society seem to this that sex is a deal breaker" in a way we don't with any other aspect of a relationship.

Can I politely disagree with quietly? (And I write as someone with four small children who often finds sex the equivalent of running a marathon at bedtime.)

I think sex is a dealbreaker because it is one of the primary things that define a romantic/marital/sexual relationship, if not the primary thing. It is possible to get affection, friendship, support, etc from other sources but we tend, rightly or wrongly to define the sort of relationship we are talking about here as one with the person you have sex with.

I think there are lots and lots of qualifications I would like to make about men being emotional available, and not putting pressure on their partners, and lots and lots of other things they should be aware of but at the end of the day, sex is very important in a relationship and should act as a way of bonding you closer together. And in my experience, the more sex you have, the more you will want. The longer you go without it the more you feel you can survive without it.

I thought the Times article was very thoughtprovoking too, mumblechum. Here it is.

I agree with so many things here. My x and i got to a point of almost no sex quite soon after we got married (we did manage to conceive 2 girls), because he didn't really want it. I decided (consciously) to learn to live with it and sort of buried my own desire. We probably would still have been married in a very platonic comfortably way if HE didn't have an affair ( 10 years into marriage). We are now divorced and I have a new partner (we don't live together) and we have great sex....

...but he swept me off my feet and made me feel desirable. Perhaps that is what your friend needs. To feel desired. To feel like you are lying in the tropical sun rather than just knowing the sun is shining outside. Can you talk to her dh? Would that be acceptable?

Have only read OP, but my personal feeling is that she is probably like me in that if a child wants to get into bed with me, I will never refuse and I wouldn't put them back in their cot/bed. I wouldn't actually think she is using this to avoid sex - I would think that she just wants her kids to feel happy and loved (this is how I feel).

What she needs to do is to try and start again with DH and sex - I would get someone (parents/trusted friend) to have the kids for a whole weekend and try to do something nice with DH like a day out or something or meal out and see about the sex later etc. Even if she can just sleep in the same bed as him and be a bit loving without interruption, it will be a step forward. If it does not work out, do it again in a month or something. Being that her DH is so understanding, I would think that if he could be gentle and understanding with her getting things started etc, once she has started, she may actually want to continue.

I think some kids don't sleep well when little and this is a separate thing to the sex thing, although obviously it doesn't help! I don't think trying to tackle the 2 problems together is helpful. Perhaps once she has got into the swing of things, they can put kids to bed and sneak off to another room or sneak up in the morning before the kids?

Some interesting viewpoints here. But I think every one of the issues my friend has boils down to her lack of self-esteem, so in that way, they are all linked. But of course they need tackling in a separate ways; I do recognise that.

I think the way she deals with the problems she has and has had with the kids are because she can't be consistent, even though she can see that certain methods do work (her ds loved his star chart - and her dh made him a really lovely personalised and laminated one) but she didn't follow it through - I think she's almost scared of succeeding rather than being scared of failure, like most people might be.

I don't think I could speak to her dh - not at all. But she is very open about her problems and she tells us (me and the other mum I mentioned earlier) and asks for opinions, but I'm just not sure she wants the answers or opinions that we give.

and FWIW, I do think a sexless marriage could work, BUT (as someone else already said) ONLY if both partners are happy with it. Her dh is resigned to the situation but he clearly wants more - as part of an expression of his love for her, rather than him demanding sex or anything. She treats this side of things as if it's a nuisance there is NO WAY she'll be sneaking off to do it in another room the way she feels at the moment! She's just not interested.