Making sense of serious betrayal

[glassbox]

Hello. This isn't about forgiving or anything, but just understanding infidelity so I can make sense of how I am feeling.

My DP was unfaithful to me a few years ago. We worked through it, but the only reason I agreed to that was because he gave me an edited version of the truth at the time. Partly to cover his backside, but I think probably also because he didn't know why he had done it or what it means until quite a long time later.

At the time, we had been seeing each other for nearly a year and it was just dating without the serious level of commitment. He said almost losing me made him realise how much he loved me, and he has stood by that for the last couple of years and has proved it's true. Since we worked it out, he is completely committed and has been the model DP in every way and we have been very happy.

He also took responsibility for the whole thing, learned about why he did it and improved himself and I think he grew from it and turned a huge corner in who he is as it's obvious when we met he had some baggage that led to this. It was obvious he felt very badly about it and for a long while he was depressed and going through very hard things so I know how seriously he took it. I admire than he did that.

That's all good, and our relationship is happy and so on, but as he went through therapy and so on, part of that was confessing the full truth and the various motivations to me at the time.

The real version was very painful and included really calculated, deceptive behavior that was all about him and his weakness and I can't get out of my head the fact that he was so cavalier about hurting me or risking losing me the way he did.

For those who have had affairs or who are going through the longer term outcomes of these things, what are thoughts on serious betrayal and how it affects things long term?

I think you can look at it two ways:

1. He actually wasn’t worried enough about losing you to not behave the way he did.

1. He was hoping that he wouldn’t ever be found out and wouldn’t have to tell you the truth.

I don’t think there’s much to be gained in trying to dress it up any other way (and honestly, his navel-gazing in therapy about the deep, difficult to understand, subconscious reasons he cheated would make me respect him less rather than more) and it’s no wonder you’re struggling now when it’s clear he didn’t tell you the full truth about what he did because he knew that, back then, when you weren’t as invested as you are now, you’d probably have dumped him. I’d have more respect for him if he just said as much, personally.

I didn’t stay with a partner who cheated, but I have remained friends with one, and I don’t have any hard feelings over it. I believe that one of the above is true. ExP said it was the second one, and I’ve no interest in giving it any more headspace.

I think you perhaps need some counselling of your own to deal with whether you want to stay with somebody who has been dishonest all along and whether it’s something you can get over and out behind you again. Because staying means you have to do just that, not going along with years more of having it in your mind.

I think that's extremely insightful advice and would add that in Ops case number 2 came into play with a load of bs to cover his tracks. He's also effectively offloaded his guilt onto by coming clean to you. I wouldn't consider that loving behaviour with how it's left you feeling.

I can't help too much as I left my ex husband for having an affair, however there was a post recently (still around I think) form someone who had forgiven her partner for what she thought was one thing a few years ago to find out recently is was more and she couldn't get past the deceit. Well, the double deceit I guess.

This is the problem with 'forgiving' an affair/infidelity...you only ever really know what they decide to tell you and you either have to trust that that is the truth, live the rest of your life wondering if they are doing it again or if they didn't tell you everything or decide if actually, despite it being painful, you'd be better making a clean break and giving yourself chance to be happy.

1. He actually wasn’t worried enough about losing you to not behave the way he did.

1. He was hoping that he wouldn’t ever be found out and wouldn’t have to tell you the truth.

^^
This is it really isn't it.

In our case it was 1. He was always going to confess. He's a terrible liar.

For various reasons, that changed after it all came out but it was true at the time he did it.

I am sitting here with a rock in my stomach because I know 1 is the case. I'm not sure how I live with it.

I thought I could live with it, but it got harder once I knew the full extent.

He was basically unsure what he wanted at the time and OW was a potential other option.

Once it came out, he sent her packing with no hesitation on which he wanted, but while he was in the affair he said he did ponder if she might make him happy.

Hmmm I cannot understand why he would now burden you with the truth, when you'd managed to move past it. Seems very very selfish and I'm shocked a therapist would ask him to confess all the details to you now, after all these years. Feels more like him just needing to unburden himself, and dump it all on you. As selfish really as the cheating the first time around.

He still seems pretty cavalier about hurting you! He would have known how now admitting the truth when you had moved on was only going to hurt you all over again. Yet he did it, as part of his therapy......Apparently. To me he still seems very self absorbed and not really thinking of the impact on you at any point.

I think your issue is more than the betrayal. It's whether you think he is capable of considering your feelings above his own? Or is it all still navel-gazing-poor-me attitude.

Ahh a close friend of mine went through something similar to this a few years ago with her ex partner. She found texts on his phone from another woman one night after he got home from ‘work’ (his phone buzzed and she saw the text preview alluding to their date). The sleaze had told my friend he was at work but was actually meeting up with this woman and had shagged her to boot.

Anyway she decided to contact the woman for more details and discovered they’d met on tinder of all places so he was pretending to be single and undoubtedly had met other women. He did what your partner has done really. Told her it was definitely a one off and he wasn’t sure why he did it at all, he desperately didn’t want to lose her and would do anything not to etc. He majorly played it down, broke down crying, went through a depressed phase and had counselling to ‘rediscover himself’. Honestly sounded a lot like your partner.

I told her she was crazy to stay with him but she did and ended up having a child with him a couple of years later. Said child is 3 now and they’re no longer together because he cheated again. I suspect he cheated a lot more than she knew about tbh and she thinks the same in hindsight. He never really changed, I’m not sure whether cheats ever do tbh.

Your partner cheated and hoped you wouldn’t find out, they all hope this. You did find out so he played it down and put a woe is me act on so you’d feel sorry for him. I’m not sure how you can trust him, I definitely wouldn’t be able to do that. Just don’t have children with him, my friend is tied to that arsewipe for life now.

It's not that he dumped on me and gave me a different story, it's more that over the process of time and therapy we got to answers.

Yes, some details were minimised at first but unravelling all of it took a long time.

I'm wondering if I stayed with him because the person I loved before him died and I felt like cheating wasnt as bad as dying.

I'm confused today about what love is because I think DP is less capable than me generally.

I went through a different slightly different serious betrayal but I needed to know the whole truth so I could move forward - I suspected there were things I hadn't been told and it turned out I was right. To me the relationship would have been meaningless if it was based on lies so I'd rather know the whole truth so I can make an informed choice to stay or leave.

I would tell him what's going on in your head, that's what I did, often at 4 o'clock in the morning when I couldn't sleep! I had to get it out and go over it and over it with him until I had it as straight as possible in my head - and then I went over it and over it in my head until with time I thought about it less and less. When I got to that point then I could start rebuilding our relationship again.

To be honest I couldn't get past the fact that he treated two women like shit whilst he acted like the king with two cocks whilst he decided which was the better option for him. That shows a fundamental lack of respect for women and that he sees women more as fulfilling a role in his life rather than as people in their own right.

I was the same @Tal45Tal45. I needed not just all of the truth but I needed to understand how and why. That's why he did the therapy.

We had many nights I'd wake up at 4am with searching questions. It took a long time for him to really understand it all but in fairness to him he sat patiently through it and no anger or sadness I had was too much for him.

It's just he did such bad things to me, acts which showed at the time he was willing to cause me enormous suffering and I find that hard to sit with.

we had been seeing each other for nearly a year and it was just dating without the serious level of commitment
So at the time, he was cavalier because he didn't know you well and was not seriously committed to you. You were potentially one of multiple brief relationships he might expect to have. You weren't the long-term partner he is now committed to. Had you talked about being exclusive? Said you loved one another? Called each other boyfriend/girlfriend?

If you wanted to, you could frame this in your mind as him having been a dickish jack the lad all his life until he faced the prospect of losing you, at which point the shock of that dreadful idea sobered him up and made him a better person. But it sounds like you think he's the same old dick still? Why?

Was it just him being cavalier, though? Or was he a real shit to

oops, delete failure on last line

No, it wasn't like that. He said we were committed, I thought we were. The cheating was very bad, as bad as it gets. I've tried to make excuses in my head for long enough to mitigate it but what he did was bad. I can describe the circumstances if it's helpful but I didn't really want a long post.

He did choose me when forced, he had no doubts, but for a while he was happy to have both for reasons that were very selfish. It's a couple of years ago now, but I think it's only really now I'm through it enough to look with clarity.

I'd also say I have his reasons and they're understandable. Even my harshest friends have empathy for him. He had bad baggage. He was hurt inside and he hurt others. I'm glad he worked on himself and figured out why he did this.

It's just that I find it hard to get over that he betrayed me so badly. It's a horrible feeling and I do sometimes wonder if it would be easier to leave and be with someone who never hurt me.

Then I wonder if I would be as happy. Maybe I wont be as happy? We are so well suited. We love each other, probably much more so for the hills we climbed.

Do you feel as if he was getting fun out of the deception itself - using you for his jollies or laughing at you behind his back?

No, not remotely.

Id say if you can't move on from this then its time to call it a day. I don't think it was that serious a betrayal from what you've described. You werent married and it wasnt a very long relationship. If you think the same thing will happen again then its pointless carrying on.

It's just he did such bad things to me, acts which showed at the time he was willing to cause me enormous suffering

What is behind this?

The issue with affairs is that they are a coping mechanism for emotionally immature/unhealthy people. At some stage he felt his needs were not getting met in your newish relationship and rather than be respectful to you (and OW) he lied and deceived you. He gave himself permission to lie and in his mind justified it.

You say he cut off OW when he decided who he wanted. That shows it was it was always about him. Had he been open he might have risked losing you and he didn't want that...not for your sake but his.

The reason cheaters rarely change is that affairs are unhealthy coping mechanisms. Bored, feeling neglected are often the underlying emotions for affairs.

Whilst he might feel guilt he won't be carrying the hurt you are.

You don't need to get over an affair. I assumed counselling showed a person's desire to change but it can often be self indulgence. He gets to explain his guilt and receives empathy in return.

I would not forgive a cheater, especially so early on as it shows who they are.

@glassbox

No, it wasn't like that. He said we were committed, I thought we were. The cheating was very bad, as bad as it gets. I've tried to make excuses in my head for long enough to mitigate it but what he did was bad. I can describe the circumstances if it's helpful but I didn't really want a long post.

He did choose me when forced, he had no doubts, but for a while he was happy to have both for reasons that were very selfish. It's a couple of years ago now, but I think it's only really now I'm through it enough to look with clarity.

I think you need to describe the circumstances otherwise I am thinking this was early on in your relationship so maybe try to bring that to bear in mind ?In my mind this is not the same as a man married 20 years who suddenly decided to do this ...but who knows as we don't know the circumstances.

Any betrayal is serious, it's all exceptionally personal and every single one of us reacts differently. If a person says it's serious, it's serious to them.

OP - Have a think about reading this book: Attached, by Dr Amir Levine & Rachel S. F. Heller. It won't be everyone's cup of tea and it won't give you answers to your specific situation, but it might just help you see your partner in a different light, as in, in the cold light of day! That's what it did for me anyway, my H is an out-and-out 'avoider', always has been, and I never ever saw it. He had an 11 year run of serious betrayals, let me tell you, and only for him shaming himself so pathetically on one occasion and braking down in front of me out of humiliation, I would probably have never known because he was excellent at keeping himself distant. Does he have any answers as to why he behaved the way he did? Not a one. How does he behave since it all came out? Like a petrified puppy that fears being abandoned and will do anything not to be chucked out and/or exposed for what he is. Is he sorry? For himself, yes, but I don't think he's sorry for me (he says he is, but it just sounds like self-preservation to me).

You can only listen to yourself unfortunately which is sad when you just want someone to help you and tell you how to make things better. I'd stop searching for answers, there's none that will ever satisfy you or fix they way you're feeling. And maybe look at building a bit more independence into your relationship for you, so that if you do walk away it's into a fulfilled life, and if you stay then you'll have other, more positive, things to focus on. Not the best advice, but you're certainly not alone. I reckon it happens to most women unfortunately, at any and all stages of relationships. Good luck!

I'm wondering if I stayed with him because the person I loved before him died and I felt like cheating wasnt as bad as dying
Do you think you could do with some therapy too? It can be very useful - could help you work through your past experiences as well as getting your thoughts clear now.

Is this someone you are thinking about having children with?

Thanks @Fireflygal, it is exactly this. It was immature, unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Okay @MrsMaizel maybe if I describe the circumstances it would help if people can say how bad they think it was. I think they were extremely bad.

In brief he had a high flying job, had just been promoted and was travelling a lot with his new job. He was loving every minute of it. He was away a big chunk of the time. We were dating and not living together but it was an exclusive relationship that I believed was long term, as we had had those chats.

She was a colleague in one of his other offices. He leaned on her as a confidante for work problems, he says because she knew the situation and the people involved so it was easier to discuss work with her than me. There was a lot of after work drinks and crazy partying and she was part of his gang.

It started when he had a very bad day one day and I remember him being so upset he was messaging me saying he was going to quit his job because he was so upset because he had been undermined by someone. She asked him for a drink to talk it through, and he got drunk and slept with her. After that an affair began that lasted four months.

The part that makes it really bad for me is that she didn't know it was an affair (at least at first) because he didn't tell her he had a girlfriend until about two months into things. That is the part, to me, that makes the betrayal so bad because over several months of knowing this woman and confiding in her about work he never once thought to mention he had a girlfriend!

So obviously he knew she was keen and he was happy to keep the door open on that. It took me about 18 months to be really honest with myself and see that reality because it hurt a lot to admit it to myself.

The bottomline, along with his various baggage and underlying terrible coping mechanisms he was just not invested in me completely at that time. So as I said, double life really, serious betrayal.

Losing me after his confession inspired a complete change. He made a lot of sacrifices in order to be with me. The main one being his job (which he absolutely loved) and his international lifestyle (which he loved) and he said he was completely clear that he really loved me and was sorry he did not see it earlier.

I can't fault him for how hard he has tried to make amends. He did the work in counselling and came to understand why he had been able to do such terrible things or act so selfishly and he took responsibility. It was just bad.

You said you felt he didn’t care if he lost you but is that what or who you think he is now?People can and do change but it takes work and effort. It sounds to me like he has done this and has changed. So he wouldn’t make the same choices now as he did then.

You need to believe this to move on. Do you?

@PinkRoo Thanks, this is exactly what he was working on. He is an avoidant attacher, and this was one of the first things he figured out in therapy because he himself couldn't understand why, if he had met the girl he wanted to be with, he had done things to make such a mess of things.

The underlying cause of his affair, aside from circumstances, was that he was afraid to invest his all in somebody so he did things to avoid it. Nearly losing me turned things around because his realisation was that losing me was far more scary. All his avoidant mechanisms were things he worked on carefully over a couple of years both in therapy and in the safe environment of our relationship and I can honestly say he is not avoidant towards me anymore.

The affair improved communication, intimacy, security between us in many ways but most of all I think he just realised he had unhealthy coping mechanisms and it was a big wakeup call that he had to help himself and not make the rest of his life about his terrible childhood.

I can see now, in the first year of our relationship before the affair, he was doing a lot of distancing strategies towards me. I didn't notice, as I am a very laid back person. One commenter asked earlier "had he said I love you?" and he hadn't, after a year together. He now tells me probably ten times a day and he is so much more open and loving.