Struggling with the concept of how an abusive man be a ok patent!!

[Letdown16]

I’m really struggling with this. In a week I have my section 7 interview with Cafcass.

I’ve read and I’m very aware that I need to put the child’s interest first. Which usually means in Cafcass’s eyes a relationship with both mum and dad.

I have read numerous times that past abuse does not count and that I should not bring this up to any extent. My ex husband was extremely emotionally and mentally abusive.
He has not seen them for 2 years now but he is desperate to. Court has been very slow due to covid.

My question really is how can a man who systematically beat emotionally and mentally his wife to a nervous breakdown, all his previous girlfriends, work colleagues (if women or gay) in front of children be a good parent. I need to look at it for the benefit of the child but how do you separate this.

I don’t know how to approach the fact that Cafcass will see this as the past and we need to look forward. Abuse is not a past. It makes me feel like the abuse happened because me and him were not suitable but he is abusive with or without me. He will not stop purely because I left, it’s who he is isn’t it???

He can't. Pretending an abusive parent isn't abusive is not in the best interests of any child.

Is that honestly the approach cafcass takes across the board? Oh dear god. No wonder so many women feel they have to stay with shitty men to protect their dc from having to be alone with them. If you speak to Relate they will tell you that (a) if someone is abusive in one way they are likely to get worse and be abusive in other ways and (b) if they are abusive to you, ie they intentionally cause harm, they are abusive, and the chance of them being abusive to dc is high. I am sorry this isn't help OP and I hope that someone comes along with better advice but I am just appalled that cafgass is still expecting you to "look forward, be positive".

It is probably worth posting on Legal Matters as this is probably an issue which comes up a lot. It should be an issue of them being habitually abusive if that is the case, not still downgraded to a relationship problem.

One problem might be that some people call things abuse when they aren't. People might be able to give advice to help you frame in a way which illustrates hard facts about his character, rather than just referring to "abuse". It might also be worth paying for a telephone session with Relate to see if they have advice too.

I am sorry, I hope that you find a way through it.

Ah ok how do I get this moved to legal?

Sadly having had some experience with Cafcass running up to this section 7 and reading lots of others experiences it seems that they look to the abuse as in the past. They also seem to see it as an event between the relationship and not that one person has a problem as a person.

You aren’t supposed to bad mouth the other person you are supposed to be positive about contact. I don’t know how to be those things as my ex is abusive not was. It’s not something you just stop being.

You are fine to give examples of past behaviour. Keep it factual and leave out the emotion as much as possible.

Is there a history of police involvement etc?

The issue is Cafcass hear stories of abuse all the time. That's not to understate yours hear but it does take significant issues with backed up proof. If the kids speak to cafcass and cooberate then they will pay attention but it can't come across in anyway as if the words have come from anyone else.

It will also depend on how credible you are (sorry that may sound harsh) but if you have past incidents your ex can point to they will see as six of one and half dozen of the other.

I’ve already had a Scott schedule done and the judge deemed a fact finding hearing not appropriate as he admitted to it all, well he gave excuses but that didn’t work. Judge ordered him to attend courses and gave no contact until completed them and had section 7 report.

Do I really need to go through all the examples again even thought they have a copy.

I’m just really struggling on if they ask what kind of contact I would like to see happen. He will abuse because that’s who he is so any contact will give him opportunity.

You have my sympathy. I wish I could offer reassurance but I can't. It is really hard to know someone isn't a good person and for that knowledge and experience of them to be brushed aside as irrelevant to how they will treat their children.

I was in an abusive relationship with my DC's father. He's abusive to his current partner and not a good parent to my DC. This is no surprise to me. All I can do is try to preempt and repair the damage he causes.

Cafcass ignored everything I told them. I don't understand why the system works the way it does. To me it stands to reason that if someone is abusive to their partner they are likely to treat their DC poorly. A lot of damage is done to children by putting levels of contact in place that make them vulnerable to abuse.

I don’t see how they can differentiate the abuser from the parent. If you can abuse another then you are a bad person aren’t you. My ex parents for admiration and that’s all he’s looking for. Did the same to me and when I stopped admiring him I was in trouble, won’t be any different.

I have no idea of the level of contact to ask for that would satisfy me.

Sending you all the very best wishes

I had an experience with carcass last year that scared me for life
They were so awful

If you are unhappy with their suggestions can you contest it?

I have to walk this path soon @Letdown16

I'm having severe anxiety and panic attacks that one person (Cafcass) gets to determine the future of my DC

What is a Scott schedule?

@pipsqueakbollock the judge asked for 12 allegations that my ex could make his reply against and it would determine if we needed a fact finding hearing. My ex basically said yes he did them all but gave a series of reasons why as excuses which really annoyed the judge. Judge said he showed not remorse or insight.

My ex is on sex offenders reg and apparently not even that can prevent contact.

I wonder if your judge is 1) old and 2) male ?

My judge was an older lady. She was actually really brilliant. I’m worried about what Cafcass will say.

Oh

childlawadvice.org.uk/scott-schedule/

I could list 100's. But they are all historical.

Fucking blasphemy and I want to March over and hold your hand.

You got this
Stay strong

Could it be just supervised access
Agree to no more?

It is soul destroying

My cafcass officer was brutal
Listing out things my bastard ex said against me and making it seem that well he said that didn't happen so I'm not sure what you are talking about
Awful people

Anyone on here know how to challenge or contest a report ? I do fear these fckers get away with an awful lot

Sending lots of good wishes your way ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏

Well I’m lucky in that he actually agreed he did those things and has not so far said anything about me in return...apart from I stopped contact as I’m selfish.

I just don’t see how they can view abuse as historical it’s who he is it’s not historical and he did it in front of the child.

But I get that there are many cases also where there could potentially be bitterness and they have to try and determine the real problem ones.

Reading threads like this makes me wonder of the children involved would have any recourse to sue the courts/cafcass when they are adults for forcing them to see abusive parents?

No advice OP as never been in this situation but they have the report, keep it calm and factual.

Ultimately Cafcass are looking at serious safeguarding concerns.

Domestic violence, alcohol and drug abuse are the kinds of things which will limit or stop contact. A drug abuser / alcohol abuser may need to have supervised contact. Someone guilty of violence may not be able to see the kids if it's documented and there has been police involvement.

I'm going against the grain on this thread and I found Cafcass really good. My ex tried every dirty trick but Cafcass saw through it as it was obvious she was coercing the kids.

You might be best to insist on supervised access. Have you spoken to your ex about how much contact he wants.

The system is a joke. It's sadly not always best for the child. My sister's son is almost 15 now and his whole childhood was my sister having to deal with his dad. he really didn't care about my nephew. Never even got him a packet of nappies when he was a toddler. I remember he wouldn't allow him to wear his mum's clothes when he visited. So he would change him into stuff at his. Then he would not let him have any toys there from his mum's house. He never bought him anything for school etc. Just mind games and being mean to get one over all the time whilst making sure my sister never benefitted from his help in anyway.

When my nephew was 12 he stood up to his dad because he wanted to go home and get changed out of his uniform before going with him. That was the last day he saw him.

I feel for you. Because yes that is relevant. He's not a decent man. He's poisonous towards adults. How will that work for the kiddies. Especially if their dad can't be decent about their mum etc.

It's frustrating but keep being their safe place and they will see it for themselves and may well do something similar to my nephew.

I don't know what the system allows but in terms of contact in your shoes I would want supervised contact, and for me to be present or at least observe so that I could then talk to dc about anything negative that happened and help them deal with it.

I think that dc need contact with their parents even if the parent is abusive other than in extreme situations - dc will very often love their parent notwithstanding the abuse, but in any event I think it is important so that dc can join the dots about who they are, where they came from, not romanticise, and other reasons. If you are honest with the children in child appropriate ways you can also help them understand what is going on so that they aren't negatively affected in future, they don't become abusive and they don't enter into relationships with abusive people.

So for me supervised contact would be ideal for an abusive parent. I hear it is hard to get, it will depend on how you present the information possibly. I couldn't advise on that nor on the likelihood of you getting it but others on MN could.

I am also told that from the ages of about 10 onwards courts will take into consideration the wishes of the dc - but again you would need to check this out.

By suggesting supervised contact it means you are being positive about future contact. While also wanting to protect your dc from future harm.

I also found cafcass very good, social services didn't understand the complexities of the case. But cafcass over ruled it, i also insisted on a fact find. Luckerly it was agreed on.
I think you need to think more about safeguarding issues. Unfortunately someone being abusive doesn't mean their not safe to see their children.
Would you fear for the safety of your children? If so why. We're not talking about parenting choices, such as always feeding them McDonald's or letting them stay up late. Real genuine conserns, eg driving drunk or stoned with the children.
Have there been safeguarding conserns? If so when, how did this effect the children.
In the eyes of the law a parent only has to be "good enough". Also unless it's going to cause the children or other parent harm it is deemed best for a child to see both parents.
I would think long and hard what you think is best for the children. It is very very rare for no contact to be granted. I think it's always best to offer some level of contact as long as this can happen safely for all parties.
Also of course you can bring up previous abuse. But you have to always put the children first. Remain measured, controlled and honest. Also talk about persific examples rather than general. Any one can claim someone else is abusive. But to say "I remember when he did this or that" gives credibility to what your saying.
Be prepared for them to ask and look into your parenting as that's part of it. How have you coped with things etc etc.
Do you have a cafcass guardian?
Please feel free to pm me x

I’m really struggling how to take in that an abusive parent can be a safe parent.

Thanks for the offer @Justmeandme19 I will pm you later.

Unfortunately someone being abusive doesn't mean [they are] not safe to see their children

In reality yes it does. Abuse is often driven by MH, personality disorders. If you get someone who shows a deep and fundamental lack of respect for another human being when being emotionally abusive and name calling and cruelty, etc, the advice from psychologists is that someone who behaves like that would probably get worse, become abusive in other ways, physical, sexual, to anyone who they can abuse.

Just name calling and put downs and manipulation and coercive behaviour alone - there is generally some kind of personality disorder driving it - do you really not think that children being alone with them will be ok? What about emotional and psychological abuse?

It seems accepted by psychologists that where you get a partner who is abusive driven by some sort of personality disorder, they will use the children as pawns. Of course that is a safeguarding issue.

A partner who has shown themselves capable of abuse is a safeguarding issue.

The courts have the power to request a phyciatric assessment if their conserned by someones mental health. But I think this is pretty rare. I was trying to encourage the op to think if she has any safeguarding conserns. Of course this can be phycological abuse towards the children.

I think the other side to this is what are the kids feelings towards seeing Dad as that will have a big impact in any section 7 report.

Ohgoodness - I understand your point but a lot of people suffer with MH and depression. I don't think that is going to stop seeing their kids. For example my ex struggles with severe depression.