What would you say? Friend questionable dating choices!

[Allthephotos]

Hi MN
I am looking for a bit of advice regarding one of my best friends. My friend (38) is kind, caring, fun, attractive, has her own business.
Slight problem: She meets a guy and pursues him, he doesn't ever show much interest (he never asks her questions or treats her well), never takes her on a dates and she never really hears from him, but she pursues him.
She will then sleep with him and think they are in a relationship, they continue to sleep together on a casual basis.

All the time my friend gets so upset from start to end and getting angry with herself for falling for him. After a few weeks/months of luke warm behaviour he ghosts her. This has happened in the last 5 or 6 men she's met.

If I'm honest it's really frustrating for me because I have exhausted my advice. I've spent hours with her supporting her being upset (again) but I can't help thinking she's doing it to herself.
But what do I say? Or shall I just keep quiet?

I hope you get some positive responses. I have a friend same age who was widowed and has been showing very strange behaviour after a lot of gaslighting from her husband. I got a selection of responses, from supportive to a few calling me nasty, a d**k, saying I was no friend, didn't like my friend, was judging her and bitching about her, showing vile behaviour myself, amongst others So be prepared.

That said, there have been many interesting and supportive comments. My stance after all of this is to back off and be there when it all falls apart as it inevitably will. It's exhausting and frustrating as you have already found out.

My friend's latest pursuit (there have been five since her husband died in November) is a married milkman she 'met' on a FB group. Swapped numbers, and he has (like the others) told her to stop it because she won't stop calling him. Now she is posting on the FB group, and her own page, that he has 'broken her heart'.

Out of interest what has been your advice to your friend? And how has she taken it?

My sister is like this, she is very stunning and good career etc but she just can not keep a man at all, they all see her for a few months then disappear, you don’t say anything, just don’t get overly involved, that’s what I learned! She won’t thank you for saying anything

Thanks @Sandra15 and @Happycat1212 am actually extremely nervous about posting as I don't want to be picked apart and I know we've all.made some dodgy decisions in the past.
I did online dating and met some nice guys but no spark, others dates were awful. I decided to take a break of 2 years to figure out what i needed and wanted and then met my husband!

My advice has been: wait for him to ask you out so you know whether he's genuinely interested in you, don't keep texting him, have a chat about important stuff so you know what's he's looking for ie marriage, kids, exclusive relationship etc
Allow him to take you on dates, actually ask him about him and make sure he's asking you important questions.

I do think even before she's met potential dates she's decided she'd like a deep and meaningful relationship with them whereas other guys she totally dismisses

The question for me is why are some women so desperate to have a man to validate their existence? Feeling they are zero without a man? Selling themselves short like the OPs friend when they don't really want friends with benefits?

I feel sure my friend needs to be on her own for a very long time, have mental health support (which she is having) and learn to cope alone before she even thinks of a relationship because she has nothing to offer and will be used and dropped. She's already encountered this at least five times on line so if she sleeps with them and it happens it will be ten times worse.

Yes, this actually is the question isn't it? I think my friend feels left behind whilst all her friends are married with kids so she's putting pressure on herself and potential dates. However I've known her for over 10 years and she's.always been the same.

I've been on dates with men who I feel just want a relationship no matter who with and this has put me off!

My advice has been: wait for him to ask you out so you know whether he's genuinely interested in you, don't keep texting him, have a chat about important stuff so you know what's he's looking for ie marriage, kids, exclusive relationship etc Allow him to take you on dates, actually ask him about him and make sure he's asking you important questions.

Good advice. It's up to them though to take it and act on it, and it's frustrating when it's Groundhog Day isn't it? This is why I've backed off offering advice, just listening.

I'm off to see my friend in her garden this afternoon so wait to see the latest instalment. It becomes like a soap opera at times.

My sister honestly has no standards when it comes to men at all, she was seeing a man who she found out lied about his name, his age and where he lived so basically everything 😕 yet she still continued to see him because “she’s already slept with him now” yet he was the one that ended up dumping her a few weeks later! I have stopped letting her drag me into it and overly involve me in her relationships as she gets annoyed if anyone says anything she doesn’t want to hear!

I'm kinda relieved I'm not the only one experiencing this and haven't (yet) been told off on here.
I think you're right, there.is no way she's going to listen now.
I've suggested over the years perhaps take a break from dating and even said write a list of the qualities you're looking for.
It does worry me that even before she's.met a guy she's already formed an image of their future together.
It happened recently. She was telling me about a guy she's pursued, the date sounded pretty rubbish....she asked him out, he didn't ask her any questions, he didn't text her afterwards but then she text him asking him out again so he went and she fell for him, slept together and guess what he doesn't message her. But why would he if it's casual.
She was in love with a guy for years, it was friends with benefits but she still continued to sleep with him even though he said it was no strings.

I have a friend just like this! Ive started to limit my advice/support because it’s exhausting!!! I honestly think it has something to do with low self esteem or codependency (and lack of capability to be alone).

I read lots of posts like that on Mumsnet when they’ll call a man a narcissist/abusive/player but when you dig deep there were a lot of red flags early on that they chose to ignore because they liked the attention and validation.

@autumnalrain yes its totally exhausting and I have to psych myself up when we discuss her dates and men especially when she says she needs to stop being so paranoid or anxious because she hasn't heard from them.
To me her anxious is her gut telling her that they're not into her.
Not one guy has treated her badly, they have just gone along with what she apparently wants. Out of the blue they'll then get a text asking why she hasn't heard from them and all of a sudden expect them to be girlfriend and boyfriend and he now is given all these expectations out of nowhere

Definitely not just you, and it is exhausting, she will meet men after men and tell me every little detail she would be calling them her boyfriend after a week and when I did give her advice because one of them men she was seeing was clearly abusive, she stopped speaking to me. So now I do as pp said. Just listen and try not to get overly invested and don’t offer advice

@Happycat1212

Definitely not just you, and it is exhausting, she will meet men after men and tell me every little detail she would be calling them her boyfriend after a week and when I did give her advice because one of them men she was seeing was clearly abusive, she stopped speaking to me. So now I do as pp said. Just listen and try not to get overly invested and don’t offer advice

My friend had never been on her own. She went from being at home with an attentive Dad to a partner who then left her, she met and married the husband within six weeks and he died in November. This is the only time she has been alone and since then there's been her late husband's married cousin, a catfisher, a local bloke who sent her a friend request out of the blue, her former (now married) brother in law sending saucy messages, setting her sights on the next door neighbour and the window cleaner's married brother (neither of whom are interested), drunk dialling her ex to say she wants a man, and now the married milkman.

I'm just thankful none of these are in person.

Do you think it comes from not understanding or experiencing healthy relationship? My friend has never had a long term relationship.
I feel like she doesn't understand the important things to have a healthy, functional relationship.
For her it's about looks or going on a date with a guy she thinks fits the bill BUT never asks the important questions or really looks for the essential qualities of a good fit for her.

Well speaking for my friend, her relationship with her ex was a really good one, he was a great bloke. He's my cousin, but I am not simply saying it for that fact. They just grew apart and she couldn't accept it, got serious with the first man she met afterwards who gaslighted her about money and there were other problems too. She does, I think, feel she's missed out and been cheated out of a good relationship and is now going hell for leather at it with all the wrong people.

The first one, the married cousin of her late husband, blocked her after she constantly called him at work to say she was not a bunny boiler. To be fair, he did lead her on, saying he would be round there in a flash if he wasn't married. But maybe that was his clumsy way of saying you seem OK but I'm not your man, you need a single one!

He had to extricate himself fast.

Maybe a bit left field but have you considered advising her to post somewhere like here? People tend to tell it straight on mumsnet!

@PriestessofPing hadn't thought of that. Maybe Mumsnet could do the dirty work for me

Having thought about it no one wants advice when it could potentially feel exposing or hurtful. I would be defensive if that happened to me so I imagine my friend would be the same.
She doesn't actually look or ask for too much advise which suggests she doesn't think her actions are the issue.
However she is just picking the wrong guys as much as her wrong behaviour.
What I really don't get is if a guy didn't text me after a date to ask if I got home or the next day to see how I was or ask.me out again I'd just assume he wasn't that fussed and lose interest.
I suppose I don't understand how she can fall for these men when she hasn't had any meaningful conversations with them, they haven't show any interest In her, she never meets his friends or family or never taken on a nice date. I've also said to her people, at the start of dating are on their best behaviour it doesn't tend to get any better as time goes on.

I think getting her on here is a brilliant idea. Tell her she’ll get a wider range of opinions and someone might come up with something you haven’t suggested.

Or, next time she’s upset, tell her that if she keeps picking the same sort of men, she’s going to keep having the same sort of problems (this was said to me, I’m embarrassed to say that it was a proper lightbulb moment!)

Didn’t work for me, I’ve posted for my sister on here before in the past and although she’s like yeh and takes the comments on board it doesn’t change anything I think a lot of it is down to people’s personalities but maybe it may work for her, who knows

Is it down to low self esteem?
If I knew the root cause perhaps I'd be more patient or give her better advice.

I feel so guilty because in my head I keep thinking off ffs here we go again.

Also I feel like women like this are often the OW. They are willing to accept veryyyy minimal. Even someone else’s left overs. I do think it has to do with low self esteem and a need for validation.

@autumnalrain

Also I feel like women like this are often the OW. They are willing to accept veryyyy minimal. Even someone else’s left overs. I do think it has to do with low self esteem and a need for validation.

Possibly true in some cases. My own friend says she wants someone to love her, someone for her - but sets her sights on married men. Of those she has been in contact with (the eight that I know about) six are married or in long term relationships. The other two were a divorcee and a catfish. It doesn't make sense, does it?

I think she would be happy to have someone just for sex. It's just not for me in a squillion years but if she does this I will have to try to accept it. But I don't agree with it.

Yes I think it’s low self esteem and yes they are happy to be the OW in my sisters case anyway she was dating a man whose house she wasn’t allowed to and he kept making up excuses as to why, he lived with his children as a single dad apparently and had a nanny he would only ever come to her house, we all told her he was married but she wouldn’t listen. She looked on the electoral register and seen that the house he “owned” actually he wasn’t even down as living there at all and it had completely different names, still continued to see him though 🤷‍♀️ There’s no telling some people

@Happycat1212 wow 😧 truly shocking.

I do believe my friend doesn't actually understand the concept of a healthy committed relationship. She dated one guy who still lived with his ex and didn't tell her about his girlfriend. Another guy told her that he couldn't offer her a relationship so she said let's do fwb and got so upset because when she professed her love he ran a mile.
She relies heavily on looks and what she thinks are the type of guys she should be dating. It's kinda strange that the type of guy she ends up with never ever has anything in common and they seem like chalk and cheese.
Her last guy she was 'seeing' she told me she had to jump on him to get a kiss out of him because apparently he wasn't getting the hint. Then unsurprisingly she never heard from him after that.

But I can't say anything because she'll get hurt.

I have a friend like this although older than yours. If you ask her how she is she replies “still single” - she asks for introductions to any single friends (from anyone she meets) and inevitably the guys run a mile. I’ve tried to talk to her about improving her self esteem and letting someone chase her but she gets so carried away with the slightest bit of attention (whether romantic or not) that she scares guys off.

I stopped being an ear. I have no interest in her repeated failed relationahips

Oops pressed send too soon...
I’ve not interest in her repeated failed relationships because she does the same thing over and over and expects different results and won’t listen to advice about pulling back a bit.

I think perhaps stopping supporting her when it goes tits up is a good self preservation technique for you. I know it sounds cruel but there’s only so many times you can be there before it’s expected and then you’re involved in something that’s nothing to do with you