My 13 year old hates me

[theworldsbiggestcrocodile]

I have two DD's 16 and 13. dd2 has for the last year become quite depressed. It started around the time the first lockdown did, which coincided with her turning 13. She took to her room and wouldn't come out no matter what dd1 and I did to try and persuade her.
I encouraged her to go and see a counsellor which about 3 months ago she agreed to. She revealed in counselling that she had attempted suicide in March last year.

In subsequent sessions she has spoken about the causes for this which have ranged from issues around her dad and I's divorce, her relationship with him and his new girlfriend and more latterly issues with me, but she won't specifically say what.
She has told some quite far fetched lies about me during counselling (and then gave the counsellor permission to share what she had said).
She stated I'd told her she was forbidden to have a relationship with her dads new girlfriend...that I never have any food in the house-that I stand pretending to cry outside her room so that I'm the victim in all of this-that dd1 and I deliberately leave her out of things. All of that is totally untrue. She has stated that she and I don't have a good relationship and that she would like it to be better. When asked she can't specifically say what she would like to change.

Any conversations with her about this end with her just saying 'we don't have a good relationship' but again when asked how this can be improved she has no suggestions.
Her behaviour is not great. She is rude and can often be very unkind to me. But will then at other times flip and we see a bit of the girl she was before this.
Last night she told me I was the only reason she was depressed. (Having said at counselling the previous week that actually our relationship was getting better and we were fine).
I don't know what I've done to her to make her feel this way.
My head is a total mess and I can't stop crying today.

The counsellor has said she thinks there are some residual feelings there about the divorce, but also that this is just her being 13 combined with lockdown effects and that both her Father and I should be stricter with her in terms of calling out her behaviour. But that's easier said than done as she doesn't really respond to any consequences.

I really don't know what to do anymore and I'm actually starting to dread going home at night.
Any advice or experience of this that anyone has would be gratefully received...
I'm starting to wonder if she should just go and live at her dads for a bit as if I'm making her miserable if rather her be happy elsewhere if there's a chance of that. I love her so much and I can't understand how we've got here really.

I'd be getting a second opinion. I'd be worried it might be the beginning of borderline personality disorder or similar. Mentally healthy kids don't attempt suicide.

Definately persist with therapy. But look for another therapist. Always wise to get a second opinion.

I would so sit her down and tell her that lying about people and manipulating us not on. She is not 5 years old. And I'd take away her tv/phone or something for a fortnight.

If you feel her dad is more 'no nonsense' then I would certainly see about her staying there a lot more often.

Her dad is more permissive than me unfortunately.
I work in mental health and I'm terrified that it's the beginning of BPD or similar.
Our GP has been rubbish. The counselling is private and as she seems to have a rapport with her is it a good idea to disrupt it by having her see someone else?

She’s rude because she’s unhappy and feeling rejected. Has she got close girlfriends?

I’d recommend some regular one on one time. Send DD1 out of the house for the whole day. She gets to pick. Duvets on the floor, popcorn, chick flicks. PJs...if you’re not doing this once a week now anyway then you should be. 13 year old girls need attention

What was going on in March last year? Or do you think it was the first lockdown that triggered the attempt?

Is there anything at all in what she’s saying about her dad’s girlfriend etc?

I’m not trying to pick holes in what you’re saying but I remember being just like this as a teen and my Mum being quite dismissive of the fact her own depression / feelings about her divorce with my dad at the time were affecting her and then affecting me. I found it very difficult knowing how upset she was, I would hear her crying a lot and found it hard to cope with. I’m not suggesting parents shouldn’t have feelings but I am wondering if she’s feeling a bit overwhelmed by everyone’s intense emotions?

It’s a very difficult age. I remember it all very well .... and now I have an 17 year old dd who also went through something similar.

What is the relationship like between you and your ex? Does he say positive things about you?

I am so so sorry for what you are going through. I found out my teenage daughter wanted to commit suicide when I found the suicide note, thankfully she didn't go through with it. I, too, got her into private counselling within days of discovering the note. There were external circumstances and it was to do with the sudden and unexpected death of her deeply close nan. She didn't know how to deal with the pain, grief and loss of control of her feelings. On top of being a teenager and all the angst going on. My theory is (I am not a professional) is that she is trying to find a reason why she is feeling so out of control, so hurt inside and so confused. Lockdown, teenage hormones and angst I think is sending her brain off in all directions, reaching out in her mind to find a reason for everything and thus the story telling of problems with you. Divorce will have an emotional effect on everyone. It may not be the beginning of BPD but its good to keep it in the back of the mind. Keep her close, open up and talk and talk and talk. Spend decent time with her with no distractions. Take her out to see a show soon if you are out of lockdown, do anything you can to build new experiences that she sees you enjoy and she can enjoy together. Dont send her to her dads unless she really wants you. I really feel for you.

I think the counsellor may be right about the divorce

It can be a huge source of grief and anxiety for children. The last thing you need to do right now is slap a label on her. You need to find the source of her pain, however much you may disagree with it

Ah bless you I can feel your pain through your post. I have two girls aged 14 and 21. Often it's the older one who kicks back. It's very hard and very draining and breaks your heart. The thought of sending her to her dad's might seem beneficial but in the long term she needs to feel loved and accepted and the only way your relationship will get better is by being with you. Lots of love lots of boundries and time. Take time for yourself too. Hope you are okay. Big hugs to you and your little one.

Thankyou for all the replies.
The divorce was 5 years ago. Dads girlfriend was once my good friend and the whole thing was messy. We never argued in front of the girls but we live in a small town, there was gossip, they saw me upset without knowing really why as they were young at the time, and obviously she stopped being part of their lives in the way she was as my friend and then later was re introduced in a different context.
Their dad and I are amicable now and have always made effort to spend time together with them even when things were not so peaceful between us-we had Christmases together for example ans managed to call truces when it was necessary,though they could probably see how tricky that was for us at the start. We've all moved on now. I would think dd is now old enough to process what happened in the context of behaviour in friendship groups and that seems to be the issue with the girlfriend.
DD's own friendship group are a bit odd. All of them have some sort of mental health Issue-anxiety/eating disorders etc. It's so sad. But it doesn't help her at all I don't think. Dd1 on the other hand has a stable group of friends that don't have any of the angst going on-I think that makes a huge difference.
She isn't very interested in spending 1-1 time with me sadly, though I do keep trying.

"She stated I'd told her she was forbidden to have a relationship with her dads new girlfriend...that I never have any food in the house-that I stand pretending to cry outside her room so that I'm the victim in all of this-that dd1 and I deliberately leave her out of things. All of that is totally untrue."

These lies are the most important thing here. What do you think she is trying to express through these lies?

1. Her deeply conflicted attitude towards your Ex's girlfriend. This first lie is almost a wish!

1. What is your and her relationship with food? Do you cook/meal plan/eat together?

1. She is extremely worried about your sadness in this and sees you as a victim of betrayal.

Oh and she feels threatened by your closeness with your other DD.

I am really sorry that your DD is in such a dark place right now.

It must be v shocking for you. I can sense your panic on the page but I can also sense an avoidance and emotional overwhelm from you in suggesting she go to her DFs.

She is crying out to you - you don’t have to understand it or rationalise it or be defensive - just give her some non judgmental one on one time. Listen patiently and validate her feelings. Acknowledge any issues that she sees whether you agree with them or not. Apologise or express regret if you believe it and it would relieve her.

Be on her side. Her delayed reaction currently is v important. She is hurting and blaming you because she needs to be heard. Give her some time and attention and in time with continued warmth, support and encouragement she will find her feet again.

Do you have the grounding and strength to focus 100% on her right now or do you also need support?

"The divorce was 5 years ago. Dads girlfriend was once my good friend and the whole thing was messy. "

"they saw me upset without knowing really why as they were young at the time, "

It sounds like you let your emotions get the better of you & your child witnessed you crying etc and this has had an impact on her.

For someone who supposedly works in mental health am confused why you wouldn't realise that the kids being exposed to your grief would not have a long lasting impact?

Kids aren't stupid - it sounds like she knew that you & Dad's GF/your ex friend were not on good terms & she perhaps felt that at the time being friendly with her was being disloyal to you. You might not have expressly told her she was "forbidden" to see Dad's GF, but it's totally possible that's how she perceived it as a young child.

Is there a chance there's someone she's trying to impress with her story? A lot of older men who groom young girls try to get them to distance themselves from their parents.

You know the classic "script" situation where a husband suddenly "isn't in love with" his wife and wants to spend more and more time away, and it turns out there's always been an OW? Similarly, when kids' heads have been turned by a groomer type, they often get angry with their parents and claim the relationship has always been bad.

I'd be checking into her social media. In depth.

I don’t want to be that person but is ASD a possibility? I only mention it because a lot of what you say sounds familiar to me from when my DD was 13 and hadn’t yet been diagnosed.

I had a horrible divorce when my ds’s were 5 and 8.

They are 16 and 19 now.

We have had hundreds of conversations about how it was for them. Some of it makes you burn with shame and regret as we don’t always behave perfectly in a high conflict situation. For example, I told them their dad was ‘away working’ when he’d actually moved out at the very beginning of it all. My intention at the time was not to hurt their feelings, but it turns out they felt totally betrayed by that lie. Angry about it. They were 5 and 8!! But I get it, they needed me to tell the truth, someone to be totally reliable so any lie felt like betrayal.

You have to learn to take it on the chin with these things, explain, talk, apologise. They are hard conversations but the most worthwhile thing you can do, given the circumstances.

I think your dd is crying out to make sense of that time.

I've got two DDs the eldest is 21 now but when she was 14 she took to her bedroom. Wouldn't come out. Would pick fights with me. Was horrible to her sister ( 6 years younger). It was an awful time.

Now she is running a business, texts me to check on me, is assertive, confident and full of humour.

At the time she was troubled, anxious and very difficult to be around.

Just keep communicating, keep showing her you love her and don't get bogged down in the narrative of this being about you- it's not about you, it's irrelevant and it will pass.

Hang in there. They emerge like wonderful butterflies x

Please keep trying. Please don’t “send her away”. For whatever reason she is testing your love for her. It sounds to me as if you are doing all you can and your own background probably scares you silly, because you’re aware of possibilities.

I’d say get some support for you, maybe your own counselling, here, friends.....whatever it takes for you to stay strong because your DD seems to fluctuate between things being ok and not ok, and when they’re not, it’s your fault. She is learning how to manage her feelings, and in some ways she is doing well, engaging with a counsellor, presumably putting safety plans in place, and although you’re getting to know how she feels, she’s continuing to talk. Recommend Childline to her as well, look at the website with her. Hang in there, things will change, they always do.

I sympathise with you. I also have the same with my 13 year old. Long deep conversations is what turned it around and encouraging her to spend time with friends now the lock down has lifted slightly has made a huge improvement.
This whole pandemic has been detrimental to childrens mental health, they have all been isolated and spending far to much time online which has contributed to poor mental health. Its been very stressful for us all.
I would personally say the symptoms your daughter has is pointing towards BPD (I also have BPD) but its a response to trauma, mine actually developed from C-PTSD. I have quiet BPD where i do not rage but project onto myself which causes self hate, shame etc. Google makes everyone with BPD out to be monsters but there is so much more to it.

I don't want to send her away at all. I don't want her to go anywhere. It's just if she is saying that's all that will make her happy maybe it's worth a shot. I don't know.
We talk a fair bit and about 1 time in 10 I think we are getting somewhere. The other 9 times is her not being receptive and /or actively sneering at anything I say or that I suggest we do.
I absolutely get that it wasn't ideal that they saw me sad for the four or five months following the stuff around the divorce. I've apologised to them both for that. But I can't go back and change it. I've tried to use it as a sort of example of resilience in a way. That everyone goes through some horrid bits of life, its ok to not be ok, but that you can get better even from low points. Maybe that's even the wrong message to send.

Thankyou For all your replies. I don't feel I can talk to anyone about this in real life. My friends listened to me enough at the time of the divorce and I don't think I can put any more on them.

At 13 her brain will be changing fast and she will be re-processing past events. And possibly mixing up the reality of these events with her own fears and imaginings. She's probably 'blaming' you because you are closest to her and she wants to dump her feelings on you. I have a daughter who does the same, for very different reasons.

She needs you to stay close and to be strong. Crying about it will make her see you as weak and not to be relied upon, and that is terrifying for her.

Let her know you want to spend time with her (leave your other dd out of it, if possible). With my dd, I literally sit, outside her room, or in it, if she will let me, just to let her know I'm there. Usually after a while she will soften and we may hug and talk. Sometimes I don't try to talk about her feelings and ask why etc as she is either confused about them or doesn't want to say - so that can trigger her. Instead I start talking about something completely neutral - anything - a photo, her make up, clothes - anything that comes to mind and that often leads to us having a normal conversation and re-connecting.

Try to find things she would like to do and do them with her. For us it can be a walk, baking, colouring, listening to music etc. Anything like this, for however short a time will help your relationship, and in turn will hopefully help her feel less alone and in despair.

BTW my dd has been very badly affected by lockdown - meeting with friends online and for walks was her only real motivation.

PS I don't think she really wants to leave you - or even if she thinks she does, it won't be the answer. She may we see it as abandonment so I would strongly advise against it.

As far as 13 year old girls are concerned, a mother’s place is in the wrong! They use you as a convenient scapegoat for all their adolescent angst and confusion, because they know you will take it.
It’s a backhanded compliment in a way- they trust you to handle it. It’s rather like the teenage version of toddler tantrums. Their brain is undergoing massive changes, they are hormonal, and it is much easier to offload it all on blaming poor old mum than dealing with it themselves.
Hang on in there, OP. There will be a tough few years, but don’t let that destroy your relationship. If you can be calmly supportive, there is every chance she will mature out the other side of this as a decent young woman, and probably deeply regret what she put you through.
One of my DDs at 13 actually screamed at me that she hoped I crashed and died on the way to work. She was moody and difficult and picked on me when I was grieving my dead husband, for example on what would have been his birthday.
Yes, it was upsetting and horrible. But she is now an absolutely delightful, utterly caring, loving 30 year old daughter, who sends me wonderful thoughtful presents and happily goes on holiday with me. I’m sure your DD will get there too. Have a hand hold from me.

See yourself as a soothing and supportive role and steadying the boat as she navigates these choppy waters.

It will be calm eventually. Don’t let her abandon ship or take it personally and become triggered and defensive and emotionally withdraw from her or blame her. Keep calm and steady. She is finally processing stuff now - and it’s great she has chosen to do it with you - it’s messy, painful and unpredictable - but if you can validate her and hold on to the fact that this is productive and steal yourself to respond rather than react - you will all come through this in time.

If you consider how you were in the depths of your despair 5 years ago and remember HOW some people supported you and what you needed and wanted in those dark days you will appreciate that it isn’t problem solving, or settling a timeline for recovery - it’s just having the freedom of being heard.

Sounds like you do need emotional support for yourself - can you access any through work at a professional level.

@theworldsbiggestcrocodile

In your last post you do sound quite annoyed with yourself about the divorce and the emotional turmoil it caused you. I think you need to forgive yourself. For many of the things that probably went on over the years. They are done and I am sure your intentions were never to harm your children.

For example, I only realised years later how sorry I was for my children that the marriage hadn't worked - I felt enormous guilt about them not having that 'stable family background' of two parents. I felt I had failed them but it took me years to truly admit that to myself. I also had to process that on my own before I could go near it with them in any way which would be helpful.

I guess what I am saying is that there is something about you being honest yet forgiving to yourself before these conversations will become really effective - making effort to really tap into the things that you feel bad, guilty, shame about and work your way through them. People write off divorce as something that happens all the time, but my estimation is it isn't to be ignored and there is shrapnel involved - it doesn't just involve the couple, it has impact on all the family.

I haven't said it in my posts so far but I do agree that teenage girls are almost universally highly strung and so it will be some of that btw!