What do you do when children act like the Ex?

[QuentinWinters]

Very long story but I spent 20 years in an EA relationship, exH was very good at manipulating and gaslighting me so everything was my fault and I constantly had to justify myself about even tiny things. If everything was going his way he was lovely but if my needs or wants even slightly diverged from his I'd get manipulated into giving up.
Left 3 years ago and shared care 50/50. My eldest DC is 17 and he has started using the exact same tactics on me. Currently he's at his dad's as he stormed out after I wouldn't let him put the playstation in the bedroom above me at 11pm at night. The row was because I wouldn't get into a debate about whether my decision was right - he was demanding I justify myself and then if I did arguing with me so I told him we'd discuss it the next day.
He also likes to tell me what I should be doing and makes me feel like a bad mum for not prioritising his comfort at all times and is happy to use his siblings to escalate rows. E.g. the other night when I wouldn't discuss it, he started playing music really loudly and woke up his younger siblings, then told me he would not stop until I explained why he couldn't have the ps4 in his room.
Basically his style is very similar to exH and I don't know how to deal with it. I didn't leave my marriage to get into the same situation with my son. But also I feel like I over react to my son because of how his dad treated me.
Has anyone got any experience of this and suggestions for how to deal with it? I'm exhausted and upset, I am starting to not want him around because of this and I also don't want him to think this is an OK way to treat women

Oh God I have this with my 14 year old, he even talks like his Dad. He got so aggressive and confrontational that at the beginning of lockdown he went to live with his Dad and I wont lie - things have been much better without him. I know that's awful to say but he was gaslighting me and making me ill. At his Dads there are no rules and he does what he pleases which I wouldnt let him do here so he is happy too.

You have my sympathies. In our last horrible argument I kept repeating "you need to show me the respect I show you. Do not speak to me like that. I won't have it in my house."

At his Dads there are no rules and he does what he pleases which I wouldnt let him do here so he is happy too.
Yeah this is my issue as well. Ex's answer to playstation issues is to have enough games consoles/TVs in the house for everyone to play at once including him. So no need to discuss sharing. And they play as much as they want.

Could ex be fostering this behaviour as some kind of revenge? Maybe to avoid paying maintenance?

Tbh, I would be leaving them to it, the ex and son.
But I know that's very easy to say.

My DS did this too OP. I had to understand that he too was damaged by my exH and he's always played up after talking to him.
I found the only thing that worked was consistency and a firm hand.
It's important not to be the disney parent as they need rules and boundaries.
It worked in the end and we get on fine now, He says he needed my rules and played up because he was confused and in pain.

But parents dont know what to look for pp. And if professional bodies could identify the disorders beginnings early on, they could then work with the parents to ensure the disorders are prevented from developing further. Or, intervene before it's too late if for example, there is abuse in the home.

I completely agree about teaching young women how to spot abuse (and toxicity in all relationships for that matter) in schools though. It should be a weekly class right through their years there, combined with confidence building.

But ops child has grown. Not tolerating his behaviour is not going to fix him now unfortunately. Not to say she has no responsibility in what he has become of course. But whether she takes the softly softly approach or puts on her hard hat, he isn't going to change. Kicking him out may even make him hate women. But she should still do it. If he ends up living with his dad, his dad
may treat him as the scapegoat for a bit and that could cause him to have a realisation that he doesnt ever want to be like him though.

But parents dont know what to look for pp. And if professional bodies could identify the disorders beginnings early on, they could then work with the parents to ensure the disorders are prevented from developing further. Or, intervene before it's too late if for example, there is abuse in the home.

In the vast majority of cases the parents are causing it. And they don't want to stop or can't. Abuse, neglect, addiction, mental health. The intervention ultimately is removal. And removal is the most likely thing to cause harm.

What we need to do is treat addiction properly. Treat mental health issues properly. Give women the financial means to leave easily and quickly. But ultimately, we need to reframe the entire world. Stop little girls growing up with Disney teaching them damaged men and caring women make a good marriage, that relationship is the ultimate goal of women, that women aren't complete without a man, that there is nothing not worth putting up with for a relationship, that they are less than. And teaching men that anger is an appropriate response to everything, that their needs are an entitlement, that they should avoid love, care, softness and vulnerability, that porn, strippers and prostitution is normal sexuality.

I won't hold my breath.

I agree that these are often contributing factors. However studies on the development of npd have shown that a common cause is that the child wants are met, but not their emotional needs. Eg: the family can afford to take holidays and buy them anything they like but work 24/7 so arent physically there for their child. Both spoiling and neglecting the child at the same time.

Not to say that that's always the case of course. But it shows that it may in some cases be the result of parents just needing a bit of reeducation.

@Wanderlusto

I agree that these are often contributing factors. However studies on the development of npd have shown that a common cause is that the child wants are met, but not their emotional needs. Eg: the family can afford to take holidays and buy them anything they like but work 24/7 so arent physically there for their child. Both spoiling and neglecting the child at the same time.

Not to say that that's always the case of course. But it shows that it may in some cases be the result of parents just needing a bit of reeducation.

this is right, but conflicts with some of your posts.

going back to your earlier posts - the point of a good psychologist is to give sign posts to the parent to help them understand the impact, their role and what can be done now, there is a lot of information freely available and easily understood about this sort of thing nowadays.

the child is 17 and is not a dick. they are still a child. our brains don't complete their maturing process until 25.

@Wanderlusto

Unfortunately he probably has the same cluster b personality disorder his dad does. Normal people don't abuse other people, it usually comes from cluster b personalities (unless mental illness or booze/drugs cause it).

You show him that it isnt tolerated by telling him to leave. Boundaries and rules are totally pointless as they will be taken the same way a bull takes a red flag being waved at it.

Be can stay with his dad if he wants but he is to move out permanently either way.

You've already been abused once. Your kids have already been around it once before too. Dont tolerate it again. Out with him.

Even if you were qualified to make this diagnosis (it's obvious that you're not). Diagnosing someone with a personality disorder on Mumsnet is ludicrous. Especially a 17 year old

@Wanderlusto

Pp tbf there is likely sod all a psychologist can do to stop him becoming what he has been for many years. Therapy for the trauma in childhood may have helped, who knows. But he isn't traumatised now, he is just a dick.

And do you really think he'd agree to go?
If he is suffering from bpd (instead of the other cluster b disorders like npd) then years of ongoing treatment can help. But they don't 'cure' the disorder. And it's still fully reliant on him wanting the help and putting in the work. And ops boy is not going to do that because he probably doesn't oesnt think anything is wrong with him.

Theres no harm in suggesting he get help ('as his father abused women and you can see he is going down the same path and at his age he needs to seriously consider what kind of man he wants to become' ect...). But that doesn't mean he gets to stay with you. At his age he has to be responsible for his own choices.

You are talking nonsense

I kinda thought that being a dick was a raison d'etre for a 17 year old

Thanks all, there's lots of food for thought on this thread. Some is challenging but I'm reflecting on it

So he went to exH 10 days ago and i have heard nothing since. Hear from his siblings that ExH has bought him a new headset for his ps4 there as DS is "so stressed".
Don't know what to do. I am trying to stick to.my boundaries but feel very undermined and DSseems to have successfully constructed a "poor me" narrative

Hopefully your life is a bit easier without him. Leave them to it.