What do you do when children act like the Ex?

[QuentinWinters]

Very long story but I spent 20 years in an EA relationship, exH was very good at manipulating and gaslighting me so everything was my fault and I constantly had to justify myself about even tiny things. If everything was going his way he was lovely but if my needs or wants even slightly diverged from his I'd get manipulated into giving up.
Left 3 years ago and shared care 50/50. My eldest DC is 17 and he has started using the exact same tactics on me. Currently he's at his dad's as he stormed out after I wouldn't let him put the playstation in the bedroom above me at 11pm at night. The row was because I wouldn't get into a debate about whether my decision was right - he was demanding I justify myself and then if I did arguing with me so I told him we'd discuss it the next day.
He also likes to tell me what I should be doing and makes me feel like a bad mum for not prioritising his comfort at all times and is happy to use his siblings to escalate rows. E.g. the other night when I wouldn't discuss it, he started playing music really loudly and woke up his younger siblings, then told me he would not stop until I explained why he couldn't have the ps4 in his room.
Basically his style is very similar to exH and I don't know how to deal with it. I didn't leave my marriage to get into the same situation with my son. But also I feel like I over react to my son because of how his dad treated me.
Has anyone got any experience of this and suggestions for how to deal with it? I'm exhausted and upset, I am starting to not want him around because of this and I also don't want him to think this is an OK way to treat women

Well npd/sociopath ect are supposedly actually not genetic (not to say there isn't a genetic link predisposition to likelihood of developing it). They develop early childhood. Various arguments as to why.

If your other kids are younger I'd take a good look there and see if anything needs doing. Paying particular emphasis to them developing empathy and compassion for others (showing them how to care for a pet might help for example).

But that being said, also watch out for possible codependency developing. Often children of narcissists go one way or the other - codependency or narcissism. Make a point of always talking to them about how to spot people who do not mean good things for them in life. And to always make choices that best protect their mental health.

Are there any times when he apologises after an incident? My DS1 once squared up to me at that age but calmed down and apologised later. I think that was about gaming. I’m with his dad so that’s not an issue for us. If he doesn’t apologise then you are going to have to stay firm as previous posters have said. If he gets physical in any way you need to call the police. And if it is at the point that he is causing more problems for your other DC he might well need to go to his dads for a while. If he is allowed to do what he wants at his dads your efforts to teach him how to behave are being constantly undermined and that isn’t going to change unless he annoys his dad in some way and his dad limits what he can do.
On one level this is boundary pushing which many teens do and with some it’s a lot worse than playing PS at 11pm. But this seems to go further with how he speaks to you. That needs to be challenged- he does not get to speak to you in that way. He is not in charge of the house and he needs to learn that.

If he’s witnessed his father using the same tactics, is it so surprising that he’s he’s using that learned behaviour? I’m not excusing his behaviour but what intervention or support did he receive after watching / living the abuse? Your son will be some girl’s or guy’s future partner, therefore it’s imperative that the cycle be broken. The OP’s son wouldn't be the first victim turned abuser.

Of course the OP needs to shore up her boundaries but this future partner/ husband/ father needs anger management ASAP.

My 17 year old son is like this. Social services involved. Breaks my heart

@FinallyHere

Having him live with his father is in no way any failure of you as a mother.

Giving you a break from each other sounds like an excellent idea.

He will either grow out of it ... or not.

Good luck.

This. At the end of the day you're being way too soft with him @QuentinWinters with all this pandering "discussing" nonsense. Dont discuss anything. I don't understand where all this trendy discussing parenting has come from - you're not meant to be your teenager's best friend and if they're rules, what on earth is there to discuss?? Youre the one making a rod for your own back.

TELL him the rules and if he doesn't want to live by them, drive him to his dad's place to live there until (if ever) he wants to live by YOUR rules. Otherwise he's going to continue abusing you well into adulthood plus set a bad example for his younger siblings who will also start abusing you. On top of that start abusing other women too.

@AgentJohnson

If he’s witnessed his father using the same tactics, is it so surprising that he’s he’s using that learned behaviour? I’m not excusing his behaviour but what intervention or support did he receive after watching / living the abuse? Your son will be some girl’s or guy’s future partner, therefore it’s imperative that the cycle be broken. The OP’s son wouldn't be the first victim turned abuser.

Of course the OP needs to shore up her boundaries but this future partner/ husband/ father needs anger management ASAP.

I agree with this and @Wanderlusto Also IME the child will have been absorbing like a sponge everything he heard when he was under 3 and it would have started being played out when he was 9 or 10 noticeably. It was important to be on his case, as right from a younger age it is important to be teaching the child what is and isn't ok so that they develop their own judgement and selfcontrol and empathy. Has this behaviour only just started now? When did it start? Did you call out his father when he spoke badly when he was young, in front of him? When his father behaved badly he was a baby did you take ds from the room to minimise exposure to it?

Was just thinking about when I look back, I can see the establishment of those personalities from children as young as seven or eight. Though I suspect other kids see it better (and teachers probably). It's a pity that schools don't have a resident psychologist that specialises in identifying these disorders as they begin to form and working with the parents to prevent it solidifying.

Imagine how the rates of crime, abuse, bulllying, abuse of power/the vulnerable ect would drop...

So often we hear 'we'll learn for our mistakes' in places where theres been failings. But realistically, what can these places do if society keeps making sociopaths. Nothing is really being done to prevent the route of the problem. And when families and partners and employers realise what and who they are dealing with, it's often too late. It's sad. And frustrating.

Unfortunately your DS has learned how to treat you from his dad. It's an awful situation where his father's lack of regard for you has resulted in him damaging his son like this.

I've been through similar and DS (18) now lives with his dad. I was devastated at first but I now see it was for the best. Me and the other kids are not walking on eggshells any more. I have very firm boundaries in place.

I never entered into any arguments once he left - he would constantly parrot his dad's narrative. Over time he's matured a little, has a job etc so more of his own life, and we're getting back on track.

You haven't failed him his dad has. It's ok to live in your own home free of abuse.

Trauma impacted children grow up sometimes to be adults with personality disorders and executive function issues. Not their fault. It's the parents'.

Trauma changes brain structure, hormones, the entire personality. I'd be looking to understand that. You don't need to be in proximity to him to do that, but you also can't separate the child from the trauma.

Did you call out his father when he spoke badly when he was young, in front of him? When his father behaved badly he was a baby did you take ds from the room to minimise exposure to it?
This sounds like you are blaming me and just shows a total lack of understanding of the kind of emotional abuse I was subjected to.
No I didn't, because I didn't really understand what was happening to me/was in denial about it. It took prolonged depression and treatment with a psychologist to help me recognise that what DH did was abusive, it isn't something I need to accept. Then I left.

I'm sure DS saw how DH could manipulate me and learned to do the same. I'm also sure he has a predisposition to this behaviour. He's always always lied, with no qualms about e.g. getting his sister to take the blame for stuff he did. And he doesn't care about the consequences.

I am where I am now and can't change who his father is and what he saw when he was little. I just want some help on what I can do now.

I’d get him into therapy ASAP, hun seeing your abuse has warped his idea of healthy communication and relationships. He needs help, otherwise it’s going to be hell for you and him while he abuses you.

I don't think it is helpful for you to now attack me for blaming you - I have been through this, you want advice about now, but what happened in the past is relevant, to make informed decisions about what you can do about the future.

So looking to the future based on what you have now written, based on my experience it is easier to help children when they are younger, but it is by no means too late now. As they get older still it very much becomes up to them to seek therapy and change and so that requires them to get insight for themselves about the impact of their behaviour on others.

In your shoes I would talk to him about his behaviour and his ways of communicating and handling feelings, and explain that what he is doing is not acceptable and that it could lead to great loneliness for him in the future but I would also take some responsibility for this yourself whether you knew what was going on or not - I would tell him that you accept that the way he communicates is partly your fault and his father's fault, as he learned the behaviour from the father and you did not take steps to prevent it, and explain that you did not realise at the time but that you were the parent, and it was your responsiblity, but that now it is his responsibility too to change it and that there are things he can and should do to make changes to how he treats others and handles conflict.

Did he want the video game on because that is his way of escaping his feelings? Does he care, do you think, about hurting you, and he is acting out the only way he knows about how to try to control his environment, or has it gone beyond that and he has disconnected? Either way there is help available but obviously the latter is more difficult as he wont' be motivated to speak to someone about it.

Good luck.

No I didn't, because I didn't really understand what was happening to me/was in denial about it. It took prolonged depression and treatment with a psychologist to help me recognise that what DH did was abusive, it isn't something I need to accept. Then I left You could also go back to the psychologist, explain what is now happening with your ds, get insights about why this has happened, the impact of abuse on your ds and what is likely to happen in the future without intervention, and what you can do to help him or find the right help for him, and to how you can cope with your ds. A positive here is that you had access to a psychologist who helped you. Many women/children do not.

Pp tbf there is likely sod all a psychologist can do to stop him becoming what he has been for many years. Therapy for the trauma in childhood may have helped, who knows. But he isn't traumatised now, he is just a dick.

And do you really think he'd agree to go?
If he is suffering from bpd (instead of the other cluster b disorders like npd) then years of ongoing treatment can help. But they don't 'cure' the disorder. And it's still fully reliant on him wanting the help and putting in the work. And ops boy is not going to do that because he probably doesn't oesnt think anything is wrong with him.

Theres no harm in suggesting he get help ('as his father abused women and you can see he is going down the same path and at his age he needs to seriously consider what kind of man he wants to become' ect...). But that doesn't mean he gets to stay with you. At his age he has to be responsible for his own choices.

You don't have to explain yourself to him. You're his mother and if you tell him not to do something he shouldn't do it.
Tell him to go to his Dad's if he's so miserable with you. Bet he wouldn't last long.

I took my son to CAMHS when he was 16 because he was talking about suicide, he spoke to the psychiatrist and I was called in after. His father was not there. I told the psych that his father had a caution for assaulting me, in front of my son. I was told that failing to get said father out of the house was me failing as a parent. Never mind his father's behaviour, it was on me. So one occupation order, non molestation order, forced house sale and £8000 later his father is gone. And he's gone with him. I received not a penny is support for any of this, the system is absolutely unfit for purpose and people trying to blame the mother here do not know what they are talking about

But he isn't traumatised now, he is just a dick.

Of course he is still traumatised. Trauma in childhood changes everything from brain structure to hormones. It changes your risk of cancer and heart disease, depression and personality disorder. Your lifetime risk.

Just because he's now becoming a perpetrator, doesn't mean he's not also a victim.

OP you recognise that you were a victim with little choice. Can you also recognise that your son was a victim with no choice? That doesn't mean that his behaviour is OK or should be tolerated. But it does mean that he is not 'a dick' rather a survivor of abuse whose behaviour is dickish.

Foe example lying is an absolutely classic behaviour of both abuse survivors and children of men with PDs. I've seen utterly intrenched compulsive lying in both victims of physical and sexual abuse.

Then told me the next morning I was a terrible mum for not begging him to come back

Well yes I'm sure he was annoyed about that! That was the whole point of it, wasn't it? He wanted you to fret and sob down the phone or go out looking for him. He wanted to make you distressed, worried sick where he was and I bet he was really annoyed and disappointing when you didn't play along.

Ok, this is probably an unpopular view, but I think you might have to explore the possibility that he has inherited some of these traits form his father, not just learnt them. It's not all a case of nurture vs nature. We inherit personality traits, skills, and drives too from our families, albeit in different combination. It can't all be changed via parenting, and it's even more difficult if someone is being exposed to a person who is justifying or normalising their behavior.

Again, he might just be one of those nightmare teenagers who turn out fine as adults, but if he's willing to go to a psychologist or therapist, I would encourage it as I think you might need extra help with him.

I liked the suggestion above to tell your son straight that his father did similar to you, and you left him because of it, because it is abusive. I think that might have the most impact. Although you probably need to also guard against making him feel pre- destined to be an abuser/ thinking you hate him in the same way that you presumably hate his dad...

OP you keep saying 'my own son'. You need to stop thinking like this. He doesn't put a roof over your head, or pay the bills, so he has no say in what you do.
Your house - your rules.
Don't allow him to think he can kick off and not face consequences.
If he wants to live with you he has to respect you and your rules.

You need to get tough and detach yourself emotionally because he is rude to you and it will only get worse.

I think if he won't behave he needs to be asked to leave.

I do think if he uses force (pushing through the door to your room) that is call the police territory. It’s exactly what a future partner of his should do in those circs.

Call him on his behaviour - Tell him he is abusive and being proud of this is psychopathic. Offer to get him counselling or tell him to move out. Let him know that staying in the family home is conditional because you absolutely must protect every family member, including yourself.

@Wanderlusto

Was just thinking about when I look back, I can see the establishment of those personalities from children as young as seven or eight. Though I suspect other kids see it better (and teachers probably). It's a pity that schools don't have a resident psychologist that specialises in identifying these disorders as they begin to form and working with the parents to prevent it solidifying.

Imagine how the rates of crime, abuse, bulllying, abuse of power/the vulnerable ect would drop...

So often we hear 'we'll learn for our mistakes' in places where theres been failings. But realistically, what can these places do if society keeps making sociopaths. Nothing is really being done to prevent the route of the problem. And when families and partners and employers realise what and who they are dealing with, it's often too late. It's sad. And frustrating.

@Wanderlusto schools aren't there to parent children, that's their parents' job.

A lone psychologist cannot mitigate against what a child is being role modelled at home every single day of their lives since birth. The parents will be busy undoing any good work the psychologist may be implementing.

It's obviously not the OP's fault for being abused, and the blame must lie with their dad. The best preventative strategy that could be taught in schools is teaching girls to identify abusive behaviours and leave such men before they marry or have kids with them.

What also happens is, as we see in the OP unfortunately, the woman often goes on to help facilitate the bad behaviour continuing in her own children. Instead of taking a tough no nonsense approach, she continues to pander to him the same way she pandered to his dad, therefore rewarding her son for his abusive behaviour and embedding it further. Her son sounds very dangerous and well on his way to becoming a psychopath/abuser/criminal yet OP is busy "discussing" things with him like she's his subordinate and letting him treat her like utter crap!! She's still his parent and has to take responsibility for her part in facilitating his abusive behaviour right now. It's utterly terrifying that someone like her son will soon be unleashed on vulnerable women.

@QuentinWinters

Did you call out his father when he spoke badly when he was young, in front of him? When his father behaved badly he was a baby did you take ds from the room to minimise exposure to it? This sounds like you are blaming me and just shows a total lack of understanding of the kind of emotional abuse I was subjected to. No I didn't, because I didn't really understand what was happening to me/was in denial about it. It took prolonged depression and treatment with a psychologist to help me recognise that what DH did was abusive, it isn't something I need to accept. Then I left.

I'm sure DS saw how DH could manipulate me and learned to do the same. I'm also sure he has a predisposition to this behaviour. He's always always lied, with no qualms about e.g. getting his sister to take the blame for stuff he did. And he doesn't care about the consequences.

I am where I am now and can't change who his father is and what he saw when he was little. I just want some help on what I can do now.

@QuentinWinters so what did you do when he compulsively lied as a child? He must have been allowed to get away with it without proper punishment if he kept successfully doing it. And his poor sister is another female victim being manipulated.

Posters are simply pointing out you're a grown adult in this situation and were always his other parent so you have to take responsibility for what is in your power, especially now.

The fact you've been treating him softly up until now shows you've not taken seriously your part in trying to stop entrenching his abusive behaviours. If you're determined to continue facilitating him, at the very least warn off any future girlfriends he has otherwise these poor women and any future innocent children will become abuse victims and this horrible cycle will start all over again.