40something and still find friendships challenging

[OrangeSunset]

I'm feeling a bit low about female friendships, think I just need some wise mumsnet advise. I'm not completely sure where to start though, so please excuse any rambling.

I've never found it particularly easy to make friends although I do have a few close friends. I live in a small-ish place, and a few of us formed a large group when kids started school etc. Over the years, closer relationships have formed within that group, and I'm much more on the periphery. The 'rule of six' has really bought that home with various things going on that I'm not invited to. For balance, it's not just me who isn't invited, but that said I know the other 'non-invitees' have plenty of other circles and close relationships, so maybe it bothers them less.

But the paradox is, I'm terrible at making an effort. So, on a rational level I know that others make much more effort, and you reap what you sow. The issue that I think I really need to fix, is that I hold back from making an effort on the basis that it will be unwanted. That is, I don't really see why anyone would want to be friends with me, which prevents me from making an effort. Now, with the core groups forming and me not part of that, the narrative in my head is 'well, of course they don't want to be friends with you'.

Ugh. And the bit that is starting to bother me, is that my poor friendship skills are depriving DD of a 'template' for her own relationships, and I worry that I am just repeating the cycle for her.

Ultimately, I can see what the issue is - how do i fix it? I need to go easier on myself, but how? Is it really a case of 'reaching out' and having positive experiences and then gaining momentum from there?

Or, how do I make peace with the fact that my social skills are a bit lacking and be content with that?

I need to do one or the other, as this is really getting me down.

I think reach out to the others on the periphery. You’re not going to break into the core 6 groups. I’ve got similar issues where I live. Thought I had friendship groups until lockdown and realised I’m on nobody’s list for walking or the groups of 6. I started group exercising on zoom with different people and reaching out to people not in those core alpha mum groups. I’ve slowly started to claw my way back to some sort of social life. I still have to do the asking though but I now have one or two friends I can organise a walk with once a week which is ok. Just keep trying

How old is DD? Could you contact one person this week to try and arrange a playdate/picnic/visit to your garden/whatever else, for next week?

FWIW OP I think the past year has done all sorts to people's social lives and friendship groups. It's not a bad time to try and connect with new people.

I think that while obviously making some form of basic effort is required to make and maintain friendships, you also need to

(a) ask yourself what you’re bringing to the table in friendship terms

(b) think about what attracts you about individuals — don’t go after people as generic, interchangeable ‘potential friends’, which is an issue visible in quite a few posts on here from people who struggle with friendships. It’s not just that they’re obviously desperate, but that they’re not thinking about who they like, just saying ‘I need friends!’

(c) don’t fall into the trap of thinking of friendship as an exchange of services for liking — that will make you a socially-invisible people-pleaser.

@OrangeSunset you sound exactly like me. I've really struggled all my life to make friends, my mum was very ill from when I was about 4, died when I was 10, so never had that natural becoming friends with your mum's friends children.
I had some close friends around 30 years ago (I'm late 50s now), but we've all moved away and the friendships fizzled out.
About 15 years ago I made some new friends, was part of the "inner " circle, and got friendly with someone on the "periphery", made sure she was included every time, and she then "Wendy'd " me. I became the black sheep, and got really hurt by it all.
I don't have any answers for you, but hopefully someone will come along with some good advice for us both!

If groups are not your thing what about walking 1:1 or with kids for a picnic - I have the best conversations this way and have made some lively friends over time. Do some inviting - everyone likes to be asked.

Don’t over think this and get down over this! It sounds like you have plenty of friends. As someone else said, if you want to bond further then perhaps focus on the others on the periphery.

Thanks guys. Yes @EssentialHummus I definitely think now is a good time for a bit of a reset.

@riverrunner I agree it's important to think about what you're contributing. That's where I get a bit stuck though - and the negative self talk comes in 'well I don't have that much to offer as X/Y/Z doesn't think so'.

I also agree about the attraction between individuals. To be honest, the 3 who are at the core of the splinter group of 6, i didn't warm to when I first met them as my instincts said they had the potential to be very queen bee and cliquey. Either I was right, or I'm seeking confirmation bias .

There is also the strong possibility that people think I'm not that bothered - which would be a fair interpretation. It's that bit that I need to overcome - showing that I am interested and am not down about it.

I think in general, warmth is an issue. It was certainly an issue for my mum and I've inherited it. People (who are friends and they have said this kindly) have said when they first meet me I can be a bit standoffish. I think it's self-preservation plus low self-esteem - why would they want to be friends with me.

Must try harder!

DD is 12. So she is that in cohort where they had just starting making new friends at secondary, who live a little way away, only for lockdown to strike. I have suggested she invite some over for the afternoon but she is not keen. She has a v close BF and is not bothered about doing things outside that - which worries me! Hence my hope to prove a better role model for her.

Oh wow I have this problem, not so much now as I prefer v small groups and one on one outings. But the fear that my friendship efforts would be unwelcome has really stopped me making any effort in the past. I did not have this problem as a teenager and young adult-I was full of confidence and just assumed people would love to be my friend, but I just lost it completely, and some undiagnosed health issues meant I just recoiled at new friends. I am trying to unlearn it all now-making more effort with existing friends and when I meet people I like making more effort to become friends. It is hard, but I think in a few years I will be glad.

I think you have so much to offer as a friend. You’re incredibly self aware and socially aware. It doesn’t sound like your social skills are lacking at all.
I have social anxiety and a lot of what you’ve said resonates with me. It’s taken me a long time to build up friendships and friendship groups. A lot of it comes down to confidence and self worth/self esteem.
Are you on a lot of social media? If you are I’d recommend that you maybe do less of it if you are as it can feed the anxiety. Concentrate on a few friends who you find easy to talk to and meet people on a one to one basis because socialising in groups is much harder. Invite someone over for a coffee (in the garden at the moment!). It doesn’t have to be a big deal, don’t put any pressure on yourself.
Don’t give yourself a hard time. I’m hoping that you feel better soon about everything.

That's where I get a bit stuck though - and the negative self talk comes in 'well I don't have that much to offer as X/Y/Z doesn't think so'.

But @OrangeSunset, are X/Y/Z the three people you didn't much warm to in the first place? If you don't like them much, why should their opinion of you matter more than your opinion of them? (I mean, it could be confirmation bias, as you say, but on the other hand, I was completely wrong in my first impressions of women who are now among my closest friends, and to one of them preferred someone who was a complete snake! X, Y and Z don't have to be monsters, you might not be one another's type of person.)

I just think it's something I see a lot on here on threads where people struggle with friendships -- the OPs are often terribly self-conscious about whether other people like them, but they don't seem to ever really ask themselves whether they actually like the people they are meeting. I mean, it goes both ways. When I meet someone new, I'm absolutely thinking about whether this person is for me, not what kind of impression I'm making on them (which I can't control, anyway).

I'm not sure you can inherit 'warmth' or lack of it? Maybe you're copying your mother's social style? I'm not sure warmth is a prerequisite, anyway -- I have a new acquaintance who might eventually be a friend, the mother of one of my son's school friends, and she's extremely reserved and rather chilly in person, definitely could be interpreted as 'standoffish'. But we have some interests in common, and she sometimes sends me links to things she thinks I'll find interesting, and a lot of what she has to say is fascinating. I don't need her to be chatty or artificially chummy, or lay herself out to please.

I agree you're completely overthinking it.

If you don't invite people and make effort,people automatically assume you're not bothered about them, so of course you'll be left out of friendship groups

Perhaps work on therapy/books/self help YouTube videos on increasing your self esteem. Not sure why you think you lack social skills - it's just your inner critical voice going into overdrive.

But the practical answer is simple - regularly invite people to do things! Naturally you'll be rebuffed sometimes as people are busy/not their thing, but over time you'll build up friendships, assuming you're empathetic and ask how people are etc. when you meet them

@OrangeSunset I have no advice as I could have written your post. So you’re not alone! I’m also in my 40s. I have several lovely and caring friends but no other female I’d describe as my best friend or really close friend. Any time I’ve ever thought I had a “best friend” in my life it seems like I wasn’t their BF iyswim. I seem to have no trouble being liked, but it never goes to the next level of friendship. I think I too, lack the confidence to put myself out there a bit more. I do have a close friendship with my sister, but that doesn’t count!

You need to remember you actually do have friends already, so you can't be that bad! Unfortunately friendship is one of those things that is elusive if you think about it too much.

You're being really hard on yourself, and try not to fixate on that template idea thing you have about your daughter. The main things she needs from you are love, her needs met and loving boundaries. Everything else she can muddle through and learn on her own. Maybe look at why you are self-critical and work on that, that is absolutely within your power to do. Deciding that you need a textbook amount of friends and berating yourself when you don't is creating some kind of harmful dialogue for you. Cut that shit out. Just be happy with yourself first, everything else will flow from that.

I think it is helpful to try and meet more people in circumstances where you don't have a real option to opt out (commitment to a club / training/ choir / work) etc so you can gradually get to know people without having to do really scary stuff like issuing invitations. That has helped me get to know people well enough to feel that I can arrange walks / cake etc seperately from the rest of the group. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious!

@riverrunner you've completely nailed the problem - the fact that other's opinions of me does really, really dent my confidence. And the fact that they find it all so very easy. And I think my question is, how can I limit that negative self-talk and self-consciousness. That's also an interesting point you make about someone you have met sending links and things - the idea of that terrifies me, and yet (of course) you haven't judged her harshly for it at all or found it unwelcome.

I also get awful anxiety when I have arrange something - even if I know I'm going to have a lovely time - but it's that negative self-talk again...why did I arrange this, I'm going to make an idiot of myself or feel left out.

Thank you, I think I did know it is myself sabotaging the situation. The trick is how to unpick it - I honestly feel it would be life-changing if I could just silence these doubts!

[quote OrangeSunset]**@riverrunner you've completely nailed the problem - the fact that other's opinions of me does really, really dent my confidence. And the fact that they find it all so very easy. And I think my question is, how can I limit that negative self-talk and self-consciousness. That's also an interesting point you make about someone you have met sending links and things - the idea of that terrifies me, and yet (of course) you haven't judged her harshly for it at all or found it unwelcome.

I also get awful anxiety when I have arrange something - even if I know I'm going to have a lovely time - but it's that negative self-talk again...why did I arrange this, I'm going to make an idiot of myself or feel left out.

Thank you, I think I did know it is myself sabotaging the situation. The trick is how to unpick it - I honestly feel it would be life-changing if I could just silence these doubts![/quote]
This is @riverrunner, but after one of my periodic name changes! My point about the person who sent me links to things is that (a) I’ve always found anything she’s sent me intriguing (we like some of the same writers and have an interest in history and architecture, and she’s an architect who restores old buildings and goes to a lot of house auctions), and am delighted to be sent them and (b) that I like what I know of her despite/because of the fact she’s extremely reserved and rather chilly in person, and we are deeply alike in background and character. You don’t need to exude warmth and camaraderie to be interesting to potential friends is all I’m saying!

It might be helpful for you to focus on whether you like the people you’re coming into contact with, rather than worrying about whether they like you? You won’t like everyone, everyone won’t like you, but that’s not the end of the world. I mean, would it really matter if a couple of people thought you were completely pointless, any more than it’s crushed X, Y and Z that you’re not crazy about them?

Don't expect anything from anyone.
If you meet someone just enjoy that time gently suggest shall we do this again?
Never share secrets or outing gossip.

Baby steps.

The people who like your company will make time for you, it might be once every couple of months or whatever but that is how friendships build.

In the meantime do something, exercise, create, cook, go to church, whatever floats your boat, so you have something about you to say that isn't car problems or the kids.

Friendships in your 40s, well basically after uni, take time because everyone is busy.

If you see any of your groups say hi, don't have any resentment we are not in the playground now. Ask how people are, how their kids, partners are. But only if you are interested.

What do you mean when you say you make less effort than the others in the group? In a friendship group, everyone has to pull their weight. Not necessarily equally, all the time, but you do need to feel like organising things, or at least suggesting them, is done by everyone. And if there are invitations to bigger group things, you need to go, at least some of the time, because that’s where the plans for the smaller group are hatched.

@OrangeSunset I could have written this post as I am in totally the same place as you.

Sometimes, after a few days dwelling on how sad I feel, I think 'Fuck it' and just do my own thing but inside I am terribly sad that nobody ever ask me to do anything.

I also worry about the effects of this on my children as I think my problems are learnt behaviours from my mother. She never showed an interest in my friendship group, and didn't have any friends herself so didn't encourage or help me in any way.

I would be happy to have to have a house full of my children's friends but I get tired of asking and asking as they never come 😔

I'm CRAP at groups. Realised it in my 20s. Am a fab 1-1 friend, but groups depress me. I hate the pecking order (I'm usually safely in the middle, but still hate to witness any low-level - or more blatant - cruelty. It reeeeaaaally gives me the blues). NCT group dynamics almost finished me off, so I steer well clear of primary school gate Mum groups. I know it may have negatively affected DD's social life, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. A broken, anxiety-riddled, stressed-out Mum is waaaay worse for her than 10% less play dates. She has a couple of mates in her school and the rest at other schools. This is the best I can manage.

@itsureis you feel sad that nobody ever asks you to do anything but if everyone in a group felt that way...no-one would ever do anything!

I often feel sad that it's usually me doing the asking and sometimes get the hump and stop asking to see what happens. Some friends get in contact and ask to meet up and other don't bother. I'll usually bother more with those where it's reciprocal. Having said that, some people really do want to do things (you being a case in point), but fear rejection too much to ask, so I do the asking.

It's equally hard being an "asker" as it is waiting to be asked! If you want to make these connections, you have to put yourself out there and be an asker .

Have never used that word so much... To quote The Smiths "Shyness is nice and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you want to. So if there's something you want to try (×2), ask me I won't say no, how could I?!"

@GreatDashingBicycle - I love that! I shall be singing that all day now

@Spongebobfrillypants not heard it in ages! Is one of their cheerier songs haha.