Endless family conflict and need of a handhold

[DrowsyDragon]

My parents and my DH have never got on. My parents can be quite controlling and definitely offer their views like law. They are not easy people but they are my parents. We live in the same town and were just about rubbing along until lockdown. My DH had a full nervous breakdown including secret drinking to the point he was hospitalised with pancreatitis. He is now in therapy both for his mental issue and his drinking. I was pregnant with our second DC (conceived via IVF) at the time and left him for awhile with DD1 and stayed with my parents. He stayed sober and in therapy during my absence so I returned after the birth of DD2 to see how our family could work out. It is HARD. He is still suffering a lot with anxiety attacks, though I believe he has stayed sober. He is connecting with me more and is wonderful” with our DC though he does very little around the house now and frequently takes time to do breathing exercises.

MY parents have been furious with him, beyond furious and both have said I should divorce him. I believe that is still a thing that could happen but I am not ready to throw the towel in yet and he is really trying - in sickness and health right? A short while ago he and my parents had a discussion about the dc where DH told my parents they had to respect our boundaries. The discussion rapidly escalated to shouting and I took the DC to a safe difference. Both sides agree that my DF then lost his temper and physically shoved my DH into a door. DH did not retaliate physically. We have not seen them since this, and have been in couples counselling for our own relationship and to discuss what to do with my parents. We are due to see them soon to try and repair that relationship and let DC see their grandparents. I know mum in particular is furious with me for “taking DH’s side“ and not seeing that they were provoked. Some days I just want to grab DC, bin my phone and never see any if them again. For any one who has got this far, any advice, sympathy would be welcome. I feel so ground down.

If this was the other way round - you'd been assaulted by your mil how do you feel you'd / DH would feel. The 'generation' thing is an excuse otherwise they'd all be smacking our children and we'd excuse it. I'd be stepping back, your parents need to give you time and space.

Her husband and children should never have been there for the conversation. It should have been the Op explaining her boundaries to her parents. But she doesn’t stand up to them and now her husband has been assaulted. And yet she is still trying to find a way for her children to have a relationship with her parents.

@Mumoftwoinprimary OP has stated her father has never been violent before, so she had no reason to believe her husband was in any physical danger. Removing their two small children was absolutely the right move.

OP - honestly, if you want your marriage to work, it seems you will have to severely limit contact with your parents. They sound awful, abusive and toxic.

Do your parents realise that if your marriage fails you will end up likely 50:50 parenting your own children.

Is this what they want for you and your dds?

They need to respect your marriage and your husband - at worst be neutral!

My parents did not and I am now no contact with them - not my choice. They were furious that they no longer got to dictate to me how I spent my time. They were unable to be neutral. Ie allow
Me To be an adult.

Are you relying on them for anything? Money childcare accommodation etc?

@Mumoftwoinprimary

I think removing small children from a volatile situation was exactly the right thing to do.

Well - yes - but not by leaving her husband with her violent father. Her father - her problem. She asks her husband to take the kids out and then deals with her own parent. One of the few things me and dh have got right in our marriage is our rule of ”we are each responsible for our own relatives”.

But her DH stayed in a situation that had already escalated to shouting. He should have removed himself as well.

It sounds like OP's parents are pretty horrible - stately homes horrible - but her DH is putting her through some awful shit as well (which I suspect has been minimised, there's no description of her life leading up to his hospitalisation for alcohol-induced pancreatitis).

@Mumoftwoinprimary

The boundaries DH raised were previously discussed with him and me and I agreed to them and modified them before the conversation with parents. I am not great at conflict with them. I either become very upset or start trying to placate everyone.

Seriously?!?!? You and your husband agreed the boundaries and then as soon as it got a bit awkward you fucked off with the kids and left him to be assaulted by your father?

Yeah I did. I initially expressed support, both parties, DH and Parents started to raise their voices and I removed by two under four years old DC. Neither DH nor I expected the physical outburst but to be honest I’d have done the same thing first to keep the DC safe.

My judgement is NOT perfect and I definitely have weak boundaries with my parents and need to be stronger and more protective but on removing DC from that particular situation I think I did the right thing and so does DH.

[quote MyGorramShip]@Mumoftwoinprimary OP has stated her father has never been violent before, so she had no reason to believe her husband was in any physical danger. Removing their two small children was absolutely the right move.

OP - honestly, if you want your marriage to work, it seems you will have to severely limit contact with your parents. They sound awful, abusive and toxic.[/quote]
But she knows that her parents are controlling and stomp all over boundaries. She knows that she is unable to stand up to them. She knows her husband is ill. She couldn’t predict the violence but the fact that it would be unpleasant was very very predictable. And she chose to leave her husband with the unpleasant consequences rather than send him out and face them herself.

I do think your parents are too involved in your relationship with your Dh, but on the other hand you left him for a while and went to stay with your parents - they probably now feel they have a right to get involved. You are their only child so their whole focus is on you and your happiness - what they perceive to be your happiness. In their messed up way they think they are helping you. However your father has taken it a step too far. They need to be told, by you, that their level of involvement is unwelcome and that you are supporting your Dh through his illness.

If it were me and I had been assaulted by an in law, I wouldn't want to see them again. I think you need to accept that your Dh may not want to and he should not have to see them again. You are free to visit them but I wouldn't be inviting them to your house. There is no reason you can't continue to have a relationship with them and let them see the dc without having any discussions about your Dh and your marriage. Hopefully you have good friends who can support you with those issues.

Urgh. I initially expressed my support of the boundaries DH was raising, and I actually started the conversation with DM without DH in the room. When tempers were lost I removed the DC

DrowsyDragon

re your comment on your parents:-

"The boundaries DH raised were previously discussed with him and me and I agreed to them and modified them before the conversation with parents. I am not great at conflict with them. I either become very upset or start trying to placate everyone."

Yet more unwanted legacies i.e people pleasing behaviour and toxic fallout here from being raised by your parents who are abusive themselves. Your boundaries, weakened by all this from them anyway, are being further eroded now. Setting boundaries as well is probably very hard for you mainly because you were encouraged to not really have any.

Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour and stems from wanting power and control. All of this is on them, you are and were never responsible for their behaviours.

re your comment:-
"My ideal at the moment would be a polite but limited relationship with them while DH and I work on everything but one that allows DCs their relationship with their grandparents"

That is not going to happen. You've been controlled your whole life by your parents and they still very much control you as an adult. Your fear, obligation and guilt re them remains very strong and you seem far more afraid of them and or wanting their approval than you are of your H. Your own inertia too when it comes to your parents hurts you as much as your own family unit comprising of your H and your children. Who is your primary loyalty too; your parents (who will never give you their approval) or your own family unit?. Who is more important too, would the sky really fall in if you were to start saying no to your parents more?. No it would not but you've been conditioned to believe that it would.

If your parents are too toxic, batshit or too damn difficult for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for the children as well. People like your parents tend to be awful as grandparent figures and neither have really changed since you were a child yourself. Would you really want your children around them now, ask yourself why if that is the case.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?. Your parents likely as well taught you to be codependent as well as people pleasing (this also stems from a lack of self worth) and all of that probably also led you to you being with your H.

Do not further get stuck on the sunken costs fallacy; all this about not wanting to throw the towel in is really just that. Its a way of avoidance against noticing yourself. Thinking about what already has been may prevent you from deciding what you want your life to be.

I would suggest you read "If you had controlling parents" by Dr Dan Neuharth.

You have a choice here re your parents and DH; you are an adult with agency. Never forget that.

It must be very difficult to take your pregnant daughter and grandchild to come live with you because they felt they needed to leave their home and then for them to go back. All this has happened in the last year. Lockdown, alcoholism, pregnancy, new baby, COVID it's an awful lot. I assume they provided emotional support as well as practical support when you were living with them and pregnant. You were with them for the birth of your new child. And then they were left with an empty house whilst you went back to your husband, who still isn't well. I can well believe how your father was provoked if he's been supporting your dh's family and then your show turns around and starts talking about boundaries to him. I'm not saying your father was right- obviously physical violence is never right, but I can imagine it would be galling to be asked to pick up the pieces of his mess and then respect his boundaries.

I think you need some support to unpick the control your parents have over you. Some of your examples of their behaviour are shocking.

I second the poster who said throw them all away and set out for a happy life just you and the kiddos. I have a controlling parent, I haven't cut them off, but I acknowledge how much happier I would be if I did. However, I feel obligated to them as they have given me so much I should feel grateful. But they are a complete twat sometimes, not all the time. Am pretty sure they have mental health problems and in turn I have my own issues... your parents really do fuck you up. I also know I couldn't carry a partner through alcoholism whilst having two small children. I have had several family members with this and only one has recovered, the others are dead or still drinking. I hope everything works out for you, I can see why your parents have concerns for you but they have acted appallingly.

It might be helpful for your I read Susan Forward’s ‘Toxic Parents’ and then re-evaluate what you’re willing to put up with in relationships

Is your DH taking any medication for his panic attacks? It may be that therapy alone is not enough. Has he always been a drinker?

Your father was totally at fault for being physical, there's no excuse for that, but you chose to involve your parents when you went to stay with them, so obviously they feel involved. I have adult daughters and would be beside myself with worry if one of them were in your situation. It does seem from what you have said however that they are generally quite overbearing, even before the current issues.

However, I see your situation with your parents as secondary to your main issue with your husband. Anxiety doesn't prevent your DH sharing household chores - laziness and selfishness do. How engaged with getting appropriate help for his mental health is he? If he's genuinely doing his best, and you think he's worth the inevitable stress this puts you under, then hopefully you will pull through this together. However, if he's not fully committed to addressing his issues and you and the children will forever be walking on eggshells around him, excusing him, facilitating him, you should think about whether this is healthy for any of you.

I don't think it helps the OP to pile on about the argument. I'd have done what she did in the same situation - remove DC as a priority. Especially with no forewarning her father would turn violent.

There are even more red flags about your parents in your updates though OP... their hostility when you were ill, your own self-described sense of obligation. And refusing to give your crying child back to you is shocking, really it is. I'd urge you to listen to the posters pointing towards resources for dealing with toxic/controlling parents.

I definitely understand how hard it must have been, and continue to be, to support your husband. But the cause of that is an illness which he seems to be addressing. Whereas the cause of the struggles you have with your parents have much deeper roots.

I don't expect you to go NC immediately, but in the meantime:

My ideal at the moment would be a polite but limited relationship with them while DH and I work on everything but one that allows DCs their relationship with their grandparents

This is sensible, this should be non-controversial to all involved and most of all this is possible. You have to believe it's possible - to set the perfectly reasonable boundaries YOU want. Work out how often you want the DCs to see their grandparents. Work out the logistics of this - who's present at the handover, whether you do the handover in a neutral place, if you go to their house how long will you stay and vice versa. Then stick to that rigidly. Bland excuses if they question anything. Low contact outside of this, and even lower if they try to control your parenting approach or pull anything like the crying child stunt again.

Set a distance and maintain it. Try to detach from them emotionally so that your focus can be on reconnecting with your husband.

Do you have a support network outside of this? Friends or less toxic family? Do reach out to them so you also have support and don't feel like you have to manage the entire situation yourself.

Your parents sound like horrible bullies. There is no way on earth my children would be having a relationship with people who dismiss mental illness, resort to violence (especially their own daughter's), or refuse to give them back when they cry.

With regards to your husband, he sounds very unwell and you need to keep your controlling parents away from him. Whether you can cope with his illness and stay together is an incredibly personal decision and no one can make it for you .

Sorry- especially their daughter's mental illness, not violence.

@ShowMeHow

Do your parents realise that if your marriage fails you will end up likely 50:50 parenting your own children.

Is this what they want for you and your dds?

They need to respect your marriage and your husband - at worst be neutral!

My parents did not and I am now no contact with them - not my choice. They were furious that they no longer got to dictate to me how I spent my time. They were unable to be neutral. Ie allow
Me To be an adult.

Are you relying on them for anything? Money childcare accommodation etc?

This is a lot of what is in my head. They did look after my older DD once a week but I have stopped that and don’t intend to restart. At the moment I’m taking care of her and I’ve spoken to our childcare about extending her hours when my maternity leave is over and am budgeting for that scenario.

@DorisLessingsCat
You mentioned the build up to his hospitalisation. It was a very mixed bag. I suspected/knew he was depressed and his temper had grown very short. He’d also become forgetful and sleepy. I’ll be honest I was encouraging him to see the GP but most of my attention was on trying to work from home while pregnant and looking after DD in lockdown. Discovering the drinking both made sense of a lot of things and was a horrible horrible shock. I still feel like the ground got cut out from under me.

One of the ver positive things recently was he has been not only much more even tempered but making conscious efforts to remove himself, calm down and communicate more when he gets frustrated. It was part of why the escalation took me be surprise. He has also talked a lot about his behaviour and how he wants to be in the future.

My parents are lovebombers when they are happy with me. They always cultivated a bit if an us against the world vibe but they withdraw when they are crossed. When everything with DH was a crisis they couldn’t do enough to help but living with his recovery has not brought out the best. I don’t regret prioritising the DC and I have abided by my husband’s requests and feelings since the fight with regard to my parents but commentators have gave in me a lot o think about. My intention is for all contact to be mediated through me and he is never obliged to see them. Even if he changes his mind about the current proposed meet up I will respect that.

@gannett

I don't think it helps the OP to pile on about the argument. I'd have done what she did in the same situation - remove DC as a priority. Especially with no forewarning her father would turn violent.

There are even more red flags about your parents in your updates though OP... their hostility when you were ill, your own self-described sense of obligation. And refusing to give your crying child back to you is shocking, really it is. I'd urge you to listen to the posters pointing towards resources for dealing with toxic/controlling parents.

I definitely understand how hard it must have been, and continue to be, to support your husband. But the cause of that is an illness which he seems to be addressing. Whereas the cause of the struggles you have with your parents have much deeper roots.

I don't expect you to go NC immediately, but in the meantime:

My ideal at the moment would be a polite but limited relationship with them while DH and I work on everything but one that allows DCs their relationship with their grandparents

This is sensible, this should be non-controversial to all involved and most of all this is possible. You have to believe it's possible - to set the perfectly reasonable boundaries YOU want. Work out how often you want the DCs to see their grandparents. Work out the logistics of this - who's present at the handover, whether you do the handover in a neutral place, if you go to their house how long will you stay and vice versa. Then stick to that rigidly. Bland excuses if they question anything. Low contact outside of this, and even lower if they try to control your parenting approach or pull anything like the crying child stunt again.

Set a distance and maintain it. Try to detach from them emotionally so that your focus can be on reconnecting with your husband.

Do you have a support network outside of this? Friends or less toxic family? Do reach out to them so you also have support and don't feel like you have to manage the entire situation yourself.

I plan to keep everything neutral. Short meetings, away from either home and generally just me involved. I actually have a very good network of friends here who have been amazing. My best friend sums a lot of it up as saying when either party is good they can be amazing but both sides are very bad at putting other people first.

I’ll be honest I was encouraging him to see the GP but most of my attention was on trying to work from home while pregnant and looking after DD in lockdown.

Do keep an eye on how much you prioritise him over your own needs, whether you are treading on eggshells or others enabling him. He needs to take responsibility for himself, and play a full part in parenting and domestic life.

There's too many stories on here about people being trapped in relationships with others in poor MH, nothing improving but not feeling they can leave.

My parents are lovebombers when they are happy with me. They always cultivated a bit if an us against the world vibe but they withdraw when they are crossed. When everything with DH was a crisis they couldn’t do enough to help but living with his recovery has not brought out the best.

Another massive red flag went up at this - their being "amazing" in that situation is another form of control. The goal is to make you think you need them and can't do without them. And then as soon as there was some light at the end of the tunnel and it looked like you might not need them, they pulled back/threw their toys out of the pram, you say? Interesting.

They want to keep you emotionally dependent on them. Your husband is a threat to that.

What was their approach to previous boyfriends, or schoolfriends?

Ironically @DorisLessingsCat we were just discussing what to do for dinner and for the first time in ages he said I’ll cook. I need to get back into the habit of doing things. So fingers crossed. You are right though. It has very much felt like the list goes DC, DH and me somewhere in the distance. He is good with the DC, both play and discipline - don’t hit each other, don’t live on chocolate etc - though not always great on concepts like when bedtime is.

@gannett I had not heard that one before. They loved my first boyfriend, though he was reasonably receptive to “being adopted” into our family. Others they have been less keen on. Mum alternates between trying to be friends with my friends and ignore them. Most of my current close friends are polite to her but call her my crazy mum.

As someone who has suffered with mental health issues I find your parent's attitude shockingly bad. Your DH went through a serious medical episode and they got angry at him for being unwell and told you to divorce him? I cannot even find words for how awful that is.

If your DH developed a serious illness like cancer , and was out of action while he recovered - not himself, not helping around the house etc - they'd want you to divorce him too and physically assault him while he was recovering? How would you feel if it was the other way around? Just because it's a mental illness doesn't mean it's not an illness.

Reduce contact with your parents. They do not have the best intentions at heart for you. They still want you all for themselves, you and DC, but your DH is no one to them. Get away from these toxic people.