Friend losing the plot

[Sandra15]

My oldest friend was widowed suddenly last November and found her husband had been gaslighting her about money - long story but he had gambled away over £100K that she didn't know they had whilst the house went to rack and ruin and he said they had no money to fix it. It's caused a lot of long buried emotions to come out to the extent she's having counselling and will later be seeing a psychotherapist - she has some long, long buried issues about loss, illness and so on. She really is in a pickle. She says that she also feels guilty about not feeling as destroyed at his loss than she should do.

But she's making herself look a bit silly and I haven't the heart to tell her, and while I want to be there for her I am having to step back a bit. She's obsessed with Facebook, with men, sex and sees every single man as eye candy.

She is in my bubble and I went to see her at the weekend, we chatted for a while and she started talking about people she was chatting with on Facebook, who had posted what, and her favourite band. She was also downing Pinot Grigio like grapes were going out of fashion and was getting really angry when Facebook wouldn't load on her phone as she wanted to show me something.

When we turned the TV on to watch a film, she told me she couldn't focus or concentrate and I should watch it by myself and she started messing with her phone again looking up jokes on Facebook. So I said that I wasn't sitting watching a film by myself whilst she was on Facebook. So, she put on MTV with old music tracks on and told me how 'gorgeous' people were and did I agree? She said she liked so-and-so's music but he wasn't that good looking. I mean, I have always been into music for music's sake, not because the lead singer of a band was hot. I don't understand it at all. I once had a picture of Craig David inside my wardrobe door and that's as far as it ever went! I was never a fangirl not really.

I heard all about characters she's friends with and she sees all of this as romantic pursuit. I just can't relate and I think it's crazy. Then she looked up the profile of some guy named Graham who she showed me a photo of, asking me if I thought he had "come to bed eyes" - all I saw was a bloke with his family. This Graham guy is her window cleaner's brother who she suddenly has a fascination for.

Next topic of conversation is how she wants a man, but doesn't want to get married or live with one. She asked me if I thought that was unfair or "using someone". If they both want the same thing, then no. She said it was just being "f* buddies" so I pointed out that if she was in a relationship with someone surely they would do other things than that, ie go to the theatre, out to eat, walks, whatever? She asked me what I thought of on line dating and I gave her my views on it, not that I have ever tried it.

It was like being with a teenage girl with a one track mind. So I am sticking to this. I will talk to her twice a week - weekend and midweek - for half an hour and that's it. It was not the sort of catch-up I want with a friend. Do you think I'm being unreasonable/judgemental? It made me feel really sad and depressed. I don't want to lose her as a friend - we met at the age of 11 - but this kind of carry on is absolutely stupid. She thinks every interaction with a man is sexually charged and it is childish beyond belief. I blame too much celebrity rubbish on the box myself! I would love to help her, but I can't because she does what she wants. Doesn't eat properly, drinks too much and spends all day on Facebook and listening to music. Sorry for the rant. I really hope this counselling helps her because this is just not good.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Sorry it's not the support....

imagine for one second if you'd been through that situation - would you like people talking about you to strangers on the internet?

So long as I was not identified, and if someone was really concerned about me and needed advice, I really wouldn't mind. When I said 'losing the plot' perhaps I could have been 'kinder' but I wanted to grab attention to the post. There is no set way of grieving, and I have no 'expectations' as to how she should grieve 'as I would like'

If 'being the friend she needs' is one that encourages her to pursue married men on Facebook and talk about rampant rabbits, I am not that friend. She says it's 'just chat and a bit of fun' but I doubt their wives would see it that way and she is going to get hurt, instead of focusing on healing, sorting out her emotions with counselling and self-care. This is not self-care, this is self-destruction and I cannot 'be the friend she needs' to support that.

I am also the only person who knows she is doing this, apart from her ex who is at the end of his tether. Her two sisters don't know and she doesn't have any other close friends. I will not condone her doing this sort of stuff. Sorry if that offends, or makes me sound as if I am not #BeingKind.

I think, for what it's worth, you should talk to her, and I don't know why you haven't yet? You've been friends since you were 11, so more like sisters? You've grown up together. Talk to her and tell her you're concerned about her behaviour, and ask her about it,.openly, authentically, without judgement and with unconditional love. That's friendship, you can't be a professional counsellor as you've pointed out, but that really isn't your role here.

Your friend sounds as though she's been through unimaginable trauma. The behaviour you're complaining about I assume is very much out of character for her, so just buckle up.

It's one thing to not condone certain behaviour. I get that. And by all means tell her in a 'kind' way. Set 'boundaries'.

But it's another to 'judge' her for it when you're meant to be her 'friend', knowing what she's been through.

And you do have expectations on how she should grieve. Otherwise you wouldn't be so 'judgemental' in your post. I just can't believe you would be happy with a long standing friend thinking you were 'losing the plot'.

You clearly are expecting everyone 'to think like you' because you're not willing to see 'another side'.

It sounds like you have carers fatigue.

At 6 months I think calls everyday checking in are a bit much & the person grieving should not be relying on daily catch ups to get through the day.

Can you scale back on the daily calls & interaction?

Is there no way of steering your conversations to be about topics you enjoy too?

She sounds like she has become a bit desperate or boy crazy.

I did laugh at your Craig David poster comment!

@gutful

It sounds like you have carers fatigue.

At 6 months I think calls everyday checking in are a bit much & the person grieving should not be relying on daily catch ups to get through the day.

Can you scale back on the daily calls & interaction?

Is there no way of steering your conversations to be about topics you enjoy too?

She sounds like she has become a bit desperate or boy crazy.

I did laugh at your Craig David poster comment!

Yes, I am going to stick to a weekend chat and a midweek one. A problem is that she just talks on and on and on (she's a bit deaf) and doesn't get the 'cues' when it's someone else's turn to talk even in real life, and that's worse on the phone! She does constantly want to talk about her problems though, and it's hard to get a balance, but I'll try harder! I was hoping that involving her in other things - ie as simple as watching a film to give her something to talk about instead of Facebook and men - would help her to develop other interests and give a bit of a shift, but she can't concentrate on anything other than Spotify and Facebook.

Anyway, hopefully the anxiety counsellor will help her with that, but she doesn't want to follow what he is suggesting, just talk about what she wants. I also don't think she will be honest about all the guy-focused stuff that's going on. When she's finished the anxiety counselling she starts psychotherapy.

The concern for me is that having just come out of a marriage with a gaslighter she's trying to jump in with someone else. She's never been single in her life since she was 15 and this is one of the issues.

Are you asking for permission to back away OP? You're both adult women, you can do whatever you like. You're not responsible for her, you have been friends for a very long time but you are still allowed space if that's what you need. I wouldn't engage in chat about her therapy if you want to help her, you're not in the room so I would leave that to between her and her therapist. That's not being harsh, that's just respecting the therapeutic relationship which she may not be able to do currently.

And a s friend is the last thing I am.*

Your are no friend at all. She lost her husband less than six months ago and has subsequently had to deal with terrible surprises. I thought exactly the same words as another poster already had, with friends like you who needs enemies. Why don’t you stop pretending to be her friend, it will do you both a favour.

@Aprilx

And a s friend is the last thing I am.*

Your are no friend at all. She lost her husband less than six months ago and has subsequently had to deal with terrible surprises. I thought exactly the same words as another poster already had, with friends like you who needs enemies. Why don’t you stop pretending to be her friend, it will do you both a favour.

Cheers for that. You're talking tommyrot, but I'll ignore you. You have zero clue.

I have decided that I will call her twice a week, once on the weekend and once midweek.

I made midweek yesterday, and found that she was having a terrible day because she had been boozing the previous night (she won't eat, but she necks Stella, Corona and Budweiser) because she felt low (she said she wants someone to cuddle her) and drunk-dialled her ex and sent him an embarrassing text. Then I got a long exposition on how she had let the anxiety counsellor down by this, she was still in her dressing gown at 2pm, she had made a fool of herself, etc, so I tried to tell her that she can start over today, to get back on the horse, have a shower, eat something, think of a strategy to do something else when she felt down, such as a manicure or a facial etc. Then someone rang the doorbell (hers) and she had to go. I am sure it would help her to talk about something else just for a while to give her brain a break.

She has a (telephone) meeting with her counsellor tomorrow and I've encouraged her to tell him about her meltdown on Monday, so that he can help her formulate strategies to cope.

The bottom line of it all is that she wants a man, she wants a partner because she thinks that will solve everything (I think, anyway). She keeps telling me she "wants someone for me, someone to give her a cuddle". I've tried to tell her that she needs to love herself, and demonstrate that through self-care, asking herself if her actions honour and nourish her. Boozing, sitting around playing music, drunk-dialling exes and hooking up on Facebook with complete strangers won't do that for her. She's also in no place to start any sort of relationship with anyone at the moment, and she needs to heal dramatically before she can do that.

I've tried to tell her that she is loved by several people, but this doesn't really cut it with her because that love is not coming from a man.

Her ex told me that he is responding to her tentatively and sparingly (with the support of his wife) but trying to wean her off the dependency from him. His wife also said that I am the best friend my friend has ever had (which is good to hear in light of the (thankfully minimal) weirdos who clearly know Jack from their comments, attempting to rip me to pieces for having the audacity to ask for advice on how to handle this here, thanks for that sisters).

If she wants to call me she can do so, but I will be calling her twice a week and making the calls encouraging, not simply listening to the same things she is telling the counsellor, which gets nobody anywhere.

@Sandra15 that sounds very sensible. You’ve made boundaries - just make sure you stick to them. You sound like a very caring friend, and saying all the right things. She has been through a lot, but she needs to learn her own coping strategies and independence instead of relying on others to an excessive degree.

Why post to strangers on a forum and then call them weirdos when they don't conform to your mindset? Why resort to insults?

I really hope your friend gets the support they need to get through this. I doubt very much that will come from you.

@Eslteacher06

Why post to strangers on a forum and then call them weirdos when they don't conform to your mindset? Why resort to insults?

I really hope your friend gets the support they need to get through this. I doubt very much that will come from you.

Your are no friend at all. She lost her husband less than six months ago and has subsequently had to deal with terrible surprises. I thought exactly the same words as another poster already had, with friends like you who needs enemies. Why don’t you stop pretending to be her friend, it will do you both a favour.

The above is the post I referred to. Only one weird post, thankfully. You have been perhaps mildly unkind but on the whole reasonable. Except for saying that the support will not come from me, as how could you possibly know that?

I do think it is weird to make thoughtless and sweeping statements making judgements about me as the person (April?) reply in bold has done, who doesn't know me from Adam (or perhaps I should say Eve?) "Pretending to be her friend?" I have been friends with her since school and have supported her in so much in the past that it would take me several posts to talk about, which I am not going to do. The only other "support" she is getting is the "you ok hun?" stuff on Facebook from people she has not seen since 2003. That might make her feel good in the short term because she gets some attention, but they are not there for her, not really.

What on earth would "pretending to be her friend" do for me? I have several very good, very close friends that I do not need to pretend to be anyone's friend. I am astonished at some juvenile and spiteful comments that I read on many threads here. I thought it was a supportive place. Perhaps I got that wrong.

I have sought out web links, counsellors, researched into the wee small hours to find information out for her about her rights. Her husband gaslighted her about money and had no life insurance. She had to use her own savings to give him a funeral so, as she was in such a state she couldn't do it herself, I researched funeral grants and other assorted information. So do not presume to say that you doubt the support she needs will come from me. And just to be clear, I am not doing this for plaudits. She is my oldest friend, she is diabetic, and I am terrified she will finish up in a coma through drinking and not eating properly mixed with medication.

I have already explained why I posted to "strangers on a forum". Just to be clear, that was because I do not want to embarrass my friend by discussing that with people she knows. Nobody can identify her, so what is the problem? Loads of people post on here about all kinds of other people as I have learned since I came on here less than a month ago. I was hoping for impartial advice on how to help her, and stop myself from making mistakes with her. I feel sorry if you think I have been harsh, but I have had to explain what she does in order to get the right answers.

And by the right answers, I mean how to help her. If you have something positive to say on that, please do. If you are just going to attack me, stay quiet.

@Sandra15

Are you a “fixer” by nature op? I mean, through all your posts, it kept leaping out at me in one form or another- terms that made it clear that you’re really struggling and getting quite frustrated because you care for your friend- but you can’t “fix” it - or indeed do anything at this point. I feel for you it’s not easy to watch. You can loosen the strings a bit until your friend comes around, without being unkind or unsupportive- you just need to find the right balance. You’ll find what works for you.

Just to say also- there isn’t a set sort of, cookie cutter way to grieve. Regardless of how it looks to you, her behaviour, it is her expression of this particular grief. It is very hard to watch a friend go down this path.

But you have to watch your own sanity too. Just let go a little- as you said give her less time whilst still giving her time.

Have you tried talking to her? It doesn’t sound like she has many people- has anyone tried talking to her? It may be the shock she needs?

@LadyInParis - she is having counselling - currently with an anxiety counsellor named Steve (who she says has a gorgeous voice and she wants to know what he looks like, another concern). I recognise though that counselling on the phone is second-best. She will then, when finished with Steve, move onto psychotherapy sessions.

I don't think she is as open with anyone else as with me. She has two sisters, one lives fairly locally, the other in Cornwall (we're in Yorkshire). I don't think she tells them anything other than her depressed feelings - not about the men she's chatting with. I think they talk on the phone about once a week, but she doesn't open up in the way she does to me. And when she does - about alcohol, flirty messages with married blokes etc, I worry about the consequences.

The other person she talks to is her ex, from before her marriage. His wife knows all about this. There is absolutely nothing going on, and his wife is supportive, but they don't want to be drawn in in case she gets the wrong idea. He just happens to be my cousin. He's very straight-talking and told me that he is concerned she will end up being sectioned but he won't say that to her as he doesn't want to upset her. She's told him she still has feelings for him.

I'm going to be catching up with her over the weekend, and will see how she is getting on then. Thanks for your concern.

@Sandra15

I have been in a similar situation before re watching a friend going off the rails (extremely badly- and I mean BAD). And it is hard. She may well have to be sectioned but.. maybe that’s for the best right now? You have to let it play out. It’s very difficult- I don’t envy you. I asked about you being a fixer because then it’s even harder to watch and I wonder if you would benefit from counselling too (or have someone you can talk to who would keep it private and confidential?) because believe me when I say- this stuff takes a toll on the people around too. Including you. Just vent it out and then distance a little and let her play out. Eventually it will improve. With time.

My nan always said it never goes away, but time helps.

[quote gracefull]@Sandra15 raise your concerns with her then Sandra. Tell her you’re worried about her behaviour and who she’s getting mixed up with. That’s what I’d want if you were my friend. Not you to go behind my back and talk shit about me on the internet. Whether you like it or not, you are bitching about her on mumsnet at present and have said some pretty unkind things about her. Sorry you think that’s unkind of me to point out.[/quote]
I don't think OP is bitching about or writing shit about her friend. I think shes come on looking for advice on a very sensitive and upsetting situation she doesn't know how to deal with.

All too often on MN we see "you've not given enough info". OP has given all info needed to allow people to give their advice which you've taken to be "bitching"

I think it's really unkind to say she's bitching when she is most likely distraught seeing her friend self destruct the way she's witnessing

You are a wonderful friend to hang in there in whatever way you can, to be there for her, but also to be honest with her that she needs to put her mental health first, and also put boundaries in place to look after yourself.
I hope your friend can swap over to the psychotherapist or a trauma therapist soon soon as it does sound as if she may benefit from psychotherapy or EMDR eye movement desensitisation and reprogramming therapy or other therapy if she is having symptoms of Post traumatic stress disorder

Think I’m repeating myself, repeating myself

From personal experience, these behaviours mimick completely my journey into a manic episode, especially the hyposexuality. It was completely out of character for me (and probably your friend) and if things get progressively worse, a call to the mental health team would be the kindest thing for a supportive friend to do. Part of the symptoms of mania is a lack of insight and inability to assess boundaries and risks. If I had been sectioned at the time (it was my first and only episode) then my life wouldn't be the shit storm it is now. I hope I'm wrong though and that your friend is able to find her way again soon.

*hypersexuality btw.

How old is she?

You clearly don't like her.

You don't approve of her either.

You post a massive long essay about how shit she is.

Do her a favour and get out of her life. Without you clogging up her line she may find some sunshine.

In turn you have proved that you have some pretty serious flaws yourself.

I agree with @gutful that maybe you have carer's fatigue. It sounds as though you are just burned out through not being able to provide support that seems to do any good, and seeing her behaving in a way that seems self-destructive to you.

I second the previous posters who suggest that you focus on your wellbeing and try to step back, while keeping in occasional contact, just so someone knows what is going on with her.

Far from the people who say you aren't a good friend, I'd endorse what you're doing about making phone calls less frequent. Also, suggest trying not to give her so much emotional space in your head; it sounds like it is not helping either of you.