Boundaries with a Narcissistic Grandparent

[LOTR]

Hi, regular poster but name changed for this so it's not linked to previous posts as it could be quite outing.

My mother is difficult. My childhood was full of her cutting comments, cruel jibes and mostly, her fury and rage which could start with no warning. She yelled every night for years and has admitted to being 'too' physical with my younger sister when she was small. I was scared of her as a teen especially and to an extent I'm still very wary of her anger. I cut ties with her when I finished school and moved out. My grandmother is like a surrogate mum to me.

Many years later, my (much younger) sister has cut her off following my pattern and I am starting a family with my DH. My mother has changed a lot through being widowed unexpectedly and admitted that she had postnatal depression and PTSD dating from my sister's birth. We've re-established a cordial relationship which has a lot of boundaries. She's less angry since being widowed and seems to have changed but I'm worried that the presence of children will restart her own issues. She admitted (very unusual for her) that she made mistakes raising us and she would do things differently and get help if she had her time again. She has had counselling for the widow situation but not for her narcissistic tendencies or for the alcohol addiction I'm convinced she has. She can go for weeks or months without alcohol but will binge if she has any.

She is keen to be very involved with our child and do regular childcare. I don't trust her and I need to put boundaries in place as I don't wish to cut her off entirely. Any mention of the issues will (almost inevitably) end in a row and some period of silence as she hates being confronted as she is always right.

I must protect my kids but I still love my mum - I don't want her damaging them though.

What boundaries would you put in place from birth to form the initial conversation and when would you discuss it? Wait for an example to arise after birth and discuss/argue about it then or do it while pregnant? I don't know whether I'm deluding myself about boundaries being even possible.

I would keep your children well away from your mother going forward. Toxic people more often than not become toxic grandparent figures too. If she is too toxic/difficult for you to now deal with, its the same deal for your kids too. Do not subject them further to her emotional manipulations you are getting from her.

The only people who tend to still bother with people like your mother are the ones who have had the special training; ie the now adult children of such a parent. As for setting boundaries with her that is unlikely to work at all well. You may find that she will try and override and or ignore any you care to set her. Children need emotionally healthy models as grandparents, would you yourself describe your mother as emotionally healthy?. Probably not.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and you know too she will drink if she can lay her hands on alcohol. The counselling she has undergone has not even begun to touch on either her alcoholism (she does not want to address that) or any narcissism (and narcissists do not do very well in therapy in any event because of their own lack of insight and empathy, besides which she would need years of same). There is really no guarantee here that she would not harm your child in similar ways as to how you have yourself been harmed and remain so by her.

Your younger sister has also cut your mother off; no real surprise there given what has been written.

Where is your dad here; I ask only as you do not mention him at all?.

If you do not trust her there is no relationship to speak of anyway. Why do you want to maintain a relationship with her; is that really out of and because of your own fear, obligation and guilt?. Many adult children of narcissists tend to believe the fiction that their narcissist parent will behave better with their grandchildren; that is NOT the case at all. Such people too tend to make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures.

Re your comment:-
"Any mention of the issues will (almost inevitably) end in a row and some period of silence as she hates being confronted as she is always right."

That is another red flag right there re your mother. Look at how she is reacting to you saying no; it suggests an awful lot about her. She has not changed that much, if infact at all. You would not employ a childminder like her nor one who binge drinks; the same applies to your mother. If you need childcare then use a professional childminder rather than your mother. Make that a boundary for you. Setting boundaries is probably difficult for you anyway mainly because you were encouraged and or otherwise trained to put your own self dead last with her first and foremost.

Do have a look at the current "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages too as this could also help you. I would also suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" by Nina Brown.

Thank you so much for your response.

I think obligation and guilt at maintaining family harmony is a part of my relationship. My wider family have given up fixing my mum and just bend round her demands.

I think you've hit a nail on the head in terms of putting myself last in most situations. She's been really helpful in the last few years with practical matters and hasn't shouted at anyone in a long time...then again we are adults now and I don't live with her.

My parents are divorced and she and my stepdad had a fiery marriage. He died nearly three years ago and she seems softer since he died. My dad isn't really on the scene - we aren't close and emotionally distant is a good descriptor for him...he can't cope with emotions at all.

I think you are right that using her for regular childcare isn't an option, and to be honest I never thought it was. She is extremely keen to do that though and has offered multiple times.

I have looked at the Stately Homes thread - I ideally want LC tips to keep her in check. That might be a losing battle?

I'd consider keeping a relationship simply because she has been acknowledging some level of previous poor behaviour and regret.

That said, she has a long way to go and it wouldn't be right to trust her with your DC until they are much older and able to manage a complex relationship.

My D.C. have grown up knowing their grandma is a bit odd. We say she does her best but isn't very good at.... knowing what other people want/listening to other people/buying presents.... whatever the current issue was.

We'd give them strategies for how to manage her before we saw her. They are now talented people wranglers, able to put boundaries in place and decide how far they will go for someone.

Teach them how to grey rock, never to seek her approval or be disappointed if they don't get it.

Get good at grey rock yourself, and work out your boundaries. Within that, enjoy as much of a relationship as you can.

Maintain family harmony within your own family unit. There is no family harmony in your family of origin and look at how both you and your sister have suffered at her hands. I note too she has done the usual narcissist thing of swooping in to be helpful, this is because of wanting to maintain her I’m a good person image. Also she doing that keeps you further obligated to her. Gifts should come with ribbons, not strings.

Some people use the grey rock method to deal with the narcissist but the truth is these people are really not worth bothering with. Being the grey rock can become exhausting. You don’t also have to do what the wider family does ie bend around and to her demands. You are an adult with agency.

You need radiators in your life, not drains and your mother will continue to drain you. She could also go onto harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed. Keeping her in check will drain you and is a losing battle. Do not do that to yourself, keep her well away from you also.

Words are cheap op, just look at her actions since. She has not begun to address anything to do with alcohol nor is she seemingly in any therapy now, not that narcissist people do well in therapy anyway.

I would trust her about as far as I can throw her ie not at all. And if there is no trust there is no relationship.

Women like this cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are often as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

Sort out your childcare and explain that you want your DC mixing with other children and that you would rather not be reliant on one person in case they are ill etc if you choose a nursery rather than a childminder - these were the explanations that a friend of mine gave who preferred not to spell out the cold truth.
Grandparents do not get to dictate your childcare arrangements no matter how hard some of them try to do so.

My boundaries would be that she doesn't do any childcare whatsoever. Even when you're desperate and it seems logical, I wouldn't be letting her have your dc unsupervised. Visits only and if she crosses any lines, stop.

But you have to be aware that when you have a child, you're likely to be pretty exhausted and vulnerable at times, and she may appear the answer, but you will need to keep your boundaries against her all the same.

@picklemewalnuts when you say strategies to deal with her, how did you explain them to children?

@AttilaTheMeerkat I think you are right about the men being as narcissistic as they are (my stepdad) or being discarded (my dad).

I do feel a certain amount of guilt because she is now alone (widowed and my sister moved out for uni) and we are the closest family members. She lives about an hour away so we see her regularly but not frequently...around once a month. Maintaining that post children would probably be a non-negotiable.

I'm worried about her undermining my confidence in the early days with the baby and my husband's likewise. I probably wouldn't tell her I was in labour until I'd had the baby and was home - I've been contemplating giving her only a vague due date.

I appreciate I probably should go NC but I'm not sure I would be able to stick to it as it would put my grandmother in a very difficult situation. I'm closer to her than my mum so putting pressure on her is something I'd rather avoid.

It’s not your responsibility to manage your grandmother’s relationship with your mother. She must realise too that hardly anyone actually bothers with her daughter these days.

Being a first time mum (and congratulations to you on your pregnancy) is hard enough as it is without someone like your mother demanding she does a proportion of childcare. Look at how she reacts already when you say no and otherwise not accede to her summons.

I would concur with your plans to keep details vague and not tell her anything of significance until you are home.

@LOTR

If there is one thing I know, it’s to trust AtillaTheMeerkat.

She knows what she’s talking about, your mum hasn’t changed, just merely modifying her behaviour

This is so SHE gets what SHE wants. Again.

Go as Low Contact as you possibly can.

Keep in your head that she may have interior motives for wanting your dc unsupervised..
I went nc with my dm.. After 10 years we tried again. Regretted it within 2 weeks. Battled on for 2 years. Never let her have dc alone. Caught her whispering to dd's once about keeping secrets just between them. Eh think not... She tried changing their names, commenting on my parenting etc... Ltb again.
Left the bitch. Wished it had been lamped the bitch tbh!!
Proceed with caution ime op...
Toxic dms make for even more toxic dgms...

Hello @LOTR - I also have a narcissistic mother with alcohol issues so I understand where you are coming from. I'm extremely LC these days but it helps that she's on the other side of an ocean! The thing that jumped out at me was that you said the amount of time you saw her in future being different to how it had been was non-negotiable, I may have misunderstood though. That, based on you wanting some help here about setting boundaries going forward, made me wonder if you've had any therapy yourself? I had bad PND after having my daughter, partly to do with realising that the way my own mother had behaved was very damaging and how I could never do that to my own child. The positive in that was that it led me to seek counselling/therapy which has been invaluable in working through the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and the anger about the knock-on effects on the rest of my life. It sounds like maybe you could do with a bit of professional support to help you going forward? But you may already be on that road. I hope you manage to do whatever you need to do - wishing you the very best of luck with it all. (And yes, definitely agree with your idea to not let her know about giving birth til after you've gotten home and you feel safe and well - it's a vulnerable time and you need to focus on what's best for you).

You see boundaries for yourself. Not for narcissists. Narcissists don't care about your boundaries. And infact if they know you have set certain rules in place, they will go out if their way to break them.

Speaking as the grandchild of a narcissist, never EVER leave your child alone with one. Ever. Not even for five minutes.

If they must visit then never leave your child in the room with them alone.

I would be appalled by anyone who truly knew what their kind were capable of that exposed their children to them deliberately. There no excuse.

There's no way I'd have her looking after the dc.

Family visits for an hour at a time at the absolute most. The first time she shouts is the last time she sees the dc. No ifs bits or maybe's

Just keep well away.

If she is truly narcissistic you’re in for a battle on your hands. I decided to give my mum a chance and kept a close eye on things, as a baby not many issues arose tbh as my issues with her was exactly like yourself, the way she would speak to me and tell me all my flaws, knock every ounce of self esteem I ever had by calling me names etc. I thought to myself how much damage could she possibly do to a baby and I gave her a chance.

When my child turned two and she started to talk, I thought it was now or never to have the chat as my daughter would now be able to be affected by any name calling or spoken to inappropriately. The talk didn’t go well at all, she was in complete denial and decided to smear my name with every family member possible telling them I shout at my children etc so more or less turned it around on me what my problem with her was. She knew I was on the verge of breaking contact with her at that point so had nothing to lose with the smear campaign.

I am now NC with her to protect my dc. I’m not bothered by the smear as everyone can see her for what she is and the relief of not having to deal with her anymore is worth everything.

They are totally unaware of their behaviour, I wouldn’t waste your time giving a chance if I was you.

Two things stick out:
Firstly, that she's already pushing for a high level of contact.
Secondly, that she still gets angry and stonewalls when she doesn't get her way

Neither of these bode well and if you are going to allow her to play a part in your child's life you need to lay down boundaries now and make it clear that unless they are adhered to then it's not going to work. If that's too hard to do or you feel that she won't engage then for the sake of your own mental health and well-being you may have to consider whether you have any contact with her at all

I definitely wouldn't be allowing her to do regular childcare. Keep any contact with your children supervised so you can keep an eye on how she behaves.

Been there. Run for the hills and remember you owe her nothing. You are not responsible for her happiness. I second Stately Homes, it has been a lifesaver for my mental health as others with "normal" mothers will never, ever understand what it's like to be treated the way you have been.

If you refuse to go NC you have occasional meet ups in public places such as cafes etc.

I'll read some more Stately Homes.

I meant that we currently have once a month visits and ensuring this stays constant rather than increasing in response to new grandchild enthusiasm would be a priority.

I am horrified by some of the stories above. I think supervised contact with an ultimatum of NC should rules be broken might be the only way forward.

In some ways, acknowledging all this makes me feel guilty as it makes me feel like I'm painting my mother as some horror and my MIL/rest of family as angels...my MIL in particular is not much better I just know how to deal with her I think...

I haven't ever found therapy all that helpful but I'm grateful for the suggestion. I tend to outthink the therapist if that makes any sense and explain away my issues...I might look into family therapy with my partner focused on establishing the future and making sure our childhoods try not the leave an impression on our parenting (or at least minimise the effect where possible). I never want to be like my own mother.

I worry about going NC with her as well because I don't live near any other family - if I cut her out, I would feel more vulnerable even though I'm lucky to have friends who are close by and supportive. I'm relying on my best friend (who is due a month before me) to be the main advisor during early parenthood as this will be her third baby, rather than asking for help from my mother.

I'd always be present.

LOTR, she's not going to be any actual help at any point. She won't want to be. She will want to have photos and be able to tell her friends she has a great relationship with her incredible talented, beautiful GC! So send her photos and never, ever let her know about any struggles the children have.

In terms of teaching the DC strategies, I mean as simple as:

Visiting at Christmas, presents given- on the way remind them to say 'thank you, that's really kind' even if it isn't something you want (an electric toothbrush when you are ten, a pair of too small, grandad style slippers when you are 14, a fluffy pink biro when you are an 8 yr old boy).

When you eat at their house, tell DC that they only need to behave politely at the table- you have brought plenty of snacks they can eat if they are hungry after dinner.

Before grandma arrives, remind them she may talk a lot (doesn't stop talking the entire time) but it's ok, they just need to sit in the room, smile occasionally, and can go on their games gadgets/read a book).

Basically I ran interference between them and her, made sure their needs were quietly met with no need to involve my mother, and arranged things so both were comfortable.

As they got older, coach them on things they can tell her about- swimming lessons, party last week, friend's new dog etc.

In a way, it's old fashioned manners- but she gives no quarter while a child learns those skills, so you prime the kids for success. Teach them phrases to say that she will like to hear 'hello grandma, you look really well is that a new dress/was your journey ok/did you have a nice holiday?'

Does that make any sense? She's never been nasty to my children- incredibly thoughtless, yes, greedy and selfish, yes- actively nasty, no. She wants to keep them on side.

They are incredibly patient with her, and recognise she's a little old lady who is useless at relationships and struggles to get people to care about her because she's not likeable.

They also recognise that she actually has no skill, no resource, she simply doesn't understand why her relationships are not like those of other people. Her friend is very close with her own DC. Mum complains they are all in each other's pockets and should be more independent, yet also complains because we don't take her on outings/on holiday/out for a meal/on girly shopping trips. She doesn't enjoy being with people, she just wants people with her because it's not nice being on your own and she needs an audience. She has no interest in whether you are enjoying yourself or not.

Oh OP, from your posts, it sounds as if you have a very high level of concern for her and what she wants, despite everything.

You’ve had some amazing advice from so many great posters, here, who clearly know what they are talking about. Please heed it.

Imagine for a moment that the person you describe in your OP is a colleague or neighbour or most distant relative, and then consider why anyone would leave a child with them for any reason. They just wouldn’t.

You have around 5 years before you child might be able to tell you clearly if something bad had happened to them in her care, and if it’s something more subtly damaging then even longer before they understand it was wrong.

Your grandmother sounds amazing and I hope she would understand the very significant boundaries you would enforce to stop your mother being alone with your child.

Please put yourself and your baby first and make happy lives without any FOG around your mother (or MIL). 💐