Help With An Intense Friend?

[TedTookVows]

On MN in general when a friend is being very intense people often suggest being blunt or ghosting, and at the moment neither of these things feels like an option.

The situation :

Known her 5 years. She has a mental health issue and I have always known this and it has never been an issue in the friendship until the last few months.

She has been extremely unwell and realistically should have been sectioned at the height of it and wasn't. Bed shortage. She did extreme and scary things. I was genuinely in fear for her life and contacted everyone I could think of for help. As a friend, and not a relation, there was very little support provided to me. The response she received from mental health services could certainly be called negligence, but I wasn't even allowed to make a complaint about her CPN due to GDPR.

Meanwhile, ALL her emotional support has fallen to me. Over the last few months she has rung and texted at all hours of the day and night, often making alarming statements.

I have done everything, using Do Not Disturb, not replying immediately, not always answering. And it upsets her and it feels cruel.

At the same time, she is very needy and some of the way she expresses her need makes me feel manipulated. Parents are two of the most self absorbed egotists I have ever met and the majority of her friends have fallen away.

We don't live in the same area, and last time I was able to visit her before C19 I took the strong impression that her behaviour during various unwell episodes has made her "known" in her town and not in a good way.

She is VERY isolated, and seems to be a frequent target for the sort of man who gets off on exploiting the vulnerable.

It's just SO hard.

She is becoming better now, but she wants to talk on the phone at length a lot about a limited range of topics about which she is fixated. I just feel like I am having the one conversation on endless repeat.

I have long term mental health issues also and some serious stuff going on in my own life. During our last conversation I tried to talk about my situation a bit but every time I did, she talked over me, cut in, or changed the subject immediately before I had finished.

Even when I was directly responding to her points and her needs, she would barely let me finish my point before pulling the conversation back on. to her fixations.

I understand that she is unwell still. And I HAVE told her that I have my own shit that she needs to respect my time more. But she either doesn't realise what she is doing or doesn't care.

Last time I wasn't free to speak to her I tried to direct her to a professional, but she just wanted me.

The thing is, I'm not a friend in this situation anymore, I'm an overworked unpaid pressganged therapist. And I can't cope.

And I can't tell her I can't cope.

Because she has nobody.

But "services" can't talk to me.

Just at a loss.

Handhold?

I think the problem here is that you’re still (understandably) looking for friendship when you’re to all intents and purposes now her carer, particularly in the eyes of service providers.

Your question isn’t ‘what do I do about the friendship?’

It’s about deciding if you’re willing to have this caring role, and if so, to what degree?

Yes.

That's it exactly.

Effectively I am her carer. But the Community Mental Health Team don't acknowledge this - I had a wealth of information about dangerous behaviour which effectively proved she met the threshold for needing to be detained.

Her CPN was informed, because I basically made every phonecall and email I could think of - she didn't acknowledge the information or act on it.

Because I am unacknowledged support worker, services legally aren't going to be able to talk to me.

I'm powerless. Even more so by living in a different area under COVID.

So... I am a carer who cannot actually get her the care she needs.

Her fixations have taken her over to a degree which means any conversation that isn't about them and her associated trauma basically doesn't exist. I have heard every sentence a thousand times.

I am running out of headspace. I feel like the worst person alive. When I do get a few days peace, I worry that she is out there again, putting herself in risky situations.

I hate the helplessness I feel. Combined with just being so tired of these intense and repetitive monologues about the same thing. Because of the trauma involved, there is no way of expressing the compassion fatigue I feel without sounding like a monster.

OP.

She’s not your problem to solve, and you couldn’t even if you wanted to.

The good news is that services are aware of her, they are the ones who are responsible for getting or offering her some help and support.

You can step back. It sounds like you need to. Your willingness to listen to her constantly might actually be contributing to her getting or remaining worse, even if you mean well. Contributing to her rumination and self flagellation. The more she can come to you to offload and feel briefly relieved the less impetus there is to actually address her problems and get help.

Do you tend to try and rescue others? Because, gently, for that to have continued for this long it’s partly because you’re getting something from it. I don’t know what. Maybe you enjoy feeling needed or wanted or the rush of feeling like you’re helping to avoid a crisis, who knows? It doesn’t make you a bad person, sometimes it means you’re just too soft when it comes to maintaining your own boundaries and prioritising your own care. But it’s not good for you.

Step back, tell her you can’t cope with talking or listening to her so much when you have your own problems so you’re going to take some time away from the friendship. And then do it. Block her. Let her family know if you would feel better, but you certainly don’t have to.

Remember: you’re just a mate. You have no real control or power or say in any of her issues, you’re a listening ear and she can get that in plenty of other places if she chooses to. She has options and agency here. It feels a bit like you’ve decided that as services aren’t offering what you think they should be that it’s fallen to you to do it all instead but that’s just not true. You’re choosing to engage with her every time and only you can decide not to.

What’s your ultimate worry here? I’m guessing you’re scared she’ll hurt herself or worse if you bow out. But if that happened it wouldn’t be because of you or your actions, nobody who is well in themselves does that because a friend has distanced themselves. She’s not your problem and you’ve given enough, far more than most would. Now is the time to block her and stick with it, choose to maintain that boundary. And maybe see about some therapy for you and why you’ve put your own needs last for so long to try rescue someone else who can’t be rescued and isn’t your responsibility. That sounds really unhealthy for you and something that will be taken advantage of again and again in the future.

Do you tend to try and rescue others? Because, gently, for that to have continued for this long it’s partly because you’re getting something from it. I don’t know what. Maybe you enjoy feeling needed or wanted or the rush of feeling like you’re helping to avoid a crisis, who knows? It doesn’t make you a bad person, sometimes it means you’re just too soft when it comes to maintaining your own boundaries and prioritising your own care. But it’s not good for you

I'm not trying to rescue her. I have acknowledged she is beyond it and not just to myself.

I have my own issues of abandonment and rejection (parental; which I have had counselling for)

I don't want her to feel abandoned or rejected, because of how awful it is. However, I have increasingly begun to see how much of this is a person who actively doesn't want to heal, and is on a path of self destruction and that I can't take her off that path and I don't want to be on it with her.

She is recovering now but we will be here again. The dynamic doesn't serve me, no, but at the moment she thinks it serves her. I think that everyone else has shut her down on these topics (and I have also actually tried to) and she is like "oh Ted will listen"

I have actually said I won't talk to you about X anymore and she didn't respect it for very long.

Actually Lavender you've given me an amazing idea.

I am going to tell her that she can phone but that Topic X and Topic Y are permanently banned and I am no longer and outlet for these topics (obviously better phrased)

I will do it in a firm and non jokey way and see if we move on.

If the friendship fades out, it's because I won't enable her.

I could have written this myself. I had to walk away from my friend because I just couldn't cope anymore with her illness. I was broken and exhausted by her and had to walk away knowing awful things were happening to her, and that was the turning point. That's when it all fell apart and she ended up in secure ward. Finally after years of trying to cope alone with her she was given the care she needed and put on the right medication and moved into assisted housing. For the first few months we stayed no contact as I was dubious she was really better but now we have a genuine friendship back which is not based on her neediness and obsessions. She now has a boyfriend and is content. The phone calls all day and night stopped and we now contact each other a two or three times a month to meet for coffee. It was the hardest thing I ever did walking away but it ended up saving her by forcing the issue and saving my sanity too. I've now got my friend back and she's getting the proper support she needs rather than depending on he for all her emotional support. Cutting contact is going to be hard and bad things may well happen to her but you need to protect yourself from being sucked into all the drama and dysfunction.

If the dialogues as repetitive, I suggest she tries writing it all down until she's tired of doing so.

It's you who needs help now. To preserve your own sanity, literally, I'm afraid I don't see an option here except to block her I'm afraid after giving her an explaination of why you can't carry on. Her behaviour and lack of boundaries worrying and it could become worse.

That is so nice to hear @Kelly345 - effectively the friendship you have now with your friend is how it WAS with mine.

Having me as support this time, constantly trying to stop her behaviour probably contributed to keeping her in the community as she openly acknowledged that me cautioning her stopped her from worse behaviour.

She has already been given housing but the support minimal - she needs more.
She is coming out of this phase now. Another phase probably wont happen again for 8 months (there have been others but I was never called upon this intensely) I will suspend engagement when I can see an episode coming, but in the meantime I am going to write to her, kindly but firmly about her conversational issues.

Her behaviour and lack of boundaries worrying and it could become worse

Specific examples would be too identifying, but basically, this phase, December to now couldn't have been worse and that's why I at breaking point. You are right though @EarthSight

In our case my friend just didn't have the capacity to understand what boundaries were, hence why she was so exhausting. It took a lot of work to get the authorities to understand just how out of control her behaviour was before she came to their attention but we talk about those days and she understands it was too much for me at its worst. Her biggest fear was losing my friendship but her own actions were bringing that very conclusion to reality. You may find even when you do try to explain where the boundaries are, your friend still won't quite grasp it. You could find this rinse and repeat for a while before she reaches the real crisis point which forces the issue and gets her the support she needs. It's so hard. You feel so bad but at the same time bad things almost need to happen to get the authorities involved. I no longer dread the texts and calls. I look forward to them.

It is the fact that her fixations are trauma based that brings the guilt. She knows she needs professional therapy. Like you are silencing a traumatised person from vocalising it. But I have no responses left. And some of the content is not the trauma but invented delusions and paranoia.

I absolutely do dread her name on my screen but there was this one night, I just couldn't have another same conversation and I knew she was distressed but didn't pick up. My night was ruined because I was like :

What if she kills herself tonight Ted?

Her biggest fear was losing my friendship but her own actions were bringing that very conclusion to reality

This in spades at the moment.

She loves our friendship whilst she is actively alienating me.

I will write the letter and hope for the best.

That idea sounds like a good one. You can see if you can salvage any friendship that way. But you need to be really clear that if she raises the ‘banned’ topic you will end the call. And do it. And don’t speak to her again for a while. Otherwise there are no consequences. I suspect it’ll fizzle pretty fast.

Having me as support this time, constantly trying to stop her behaviour probably contributed to keeping her in the community as she openly acknowledged that me cautioning her stopped her from worse behaviour.

This reads as manipulative to be honest, telling you that you were the one who stopped her from worse behaviour. You weren’t of course, she owns her actions. But telling you it’s down to you primes you nicely to keep doing more of the same next time because you believe it’s in your hands to stop her from worse behaviour. It’s a way of keeping her supply of attention from you going. It clearly works because you’ve said this:

My night was ruined because I was like :

What if she kills herself tonight Ted?

She’s conditioned you nicely and although it may not feel like it she has all of the power here currently. It’s up to you whether you continue to allow it. You’re not doing either of you any favours!

I want to ask a direct question too:

Do you genuinely understand and (more importantly) believe that if she did ever decide to take her own life that’s something she’s chosen to do and not anything you can cause or prevent?

I ask because you’re clearly afraid that when you do back off she might do it... and what? It would be tragic, and sad, but it wouldn’t be your fault in any way whatsoever. You’ve done more than most and she’s not your moral or legal responsibility, she’s an adult with choices and agency.

By the way you may know this already but the samaritans will call someone who you believe may be suicidal if you ring them and give them the person’s name and number. If you have reason to believe she’s suicidal (or saying she is) and need to distance yourself you can always make a call to them and they will contact her. Personally I’d advise against it as she will likely have their details already if she’s been in touch with services, it seems like further enmeshment to me as it’s not your place to be facilitating that without her requesting it. But if that’s what it takes for you to believe you’ve gone all you can as a pal and back off then I thought it was worth mentioning.

@TedTookVows

Yes.

That's it exactly.

Effectively I am her carer. But the Community Mental Health Team don't acknowledge this - I had a wealth of information about dangerous behaviour which effectively proved she met the threshold for needing to be detained.

Her CPN was informed, because I basically made every phonecall and email I could think of - she didn't acknowledge the information or act on it.

Because I am unacknowledged support worker, services legally aren't going to be able to talk to me.

I'm powerless. Even more so by living in a different area under COVID.

So... I am a carer who cannot actually get her the care she needs.

Her fixations have taken her over to a degree which means any conversation that isn't about them and her associated trauma basically doesn't exist. I have heard every sentence a thousand times.

I am running out of headspace. I feel like the worst person alive. When I do get a few days peace, I worry that she is out there again, putting herself in risky situations.

I hate the helplessness I feel. Combined with just being so tired of these intense and repetitive monologues about the same thing. Because of the trauma involved, there is no way of expressing the compassion fatigue I feel without sounding like a monster.

I would be very wary of getting in deeper... but if you do want to be able to talk to medical/care agencies and get her support, you could suggest that your friend names you as her next of kin to GPs and any other agencies she is involved with. It sounds like she would be open to this. NoK does not have to be a blood relation and provided she still has capacity she could nominate you for this role. You might find the situation less stressful if you were able to talk to her local services and ensure she has support.

On balance though, I think you'd be better off following Kelly345's advice and stepping away.

Oh god, do we have the same friend? I love her to bits but she sounds exactly the same. It’s draining on the phone and I have to psych myself up for a call as it’s so tiring. I know she’s very lonely so I carry on the friendship though. Tough one @TedTookVows and I sympathise.

@LavenderLollies

Yes. I started this thread precisely because I feel manipulated.

I have lost loved ones to suicide, though I am unsure if I have ever told her so she isn't directly "playing on it"

In terms of that information about the Samaritans I didn't know so thanks.

As an example, she texted last night, to say she was very down, and I knew it was a hint for a phonecall, but we spoke for over an hour on Friday. This morning her first text came before 8am and she texted again 2 hours later when I hadn't replied. In a romantic relationship you would be put off by this. It's like a bombardment..

@VodkaSlimline

Six months ago I would absolutely have agreed to be her NoK, after the last four months no way, way too much responsibility

@BigPaperBag

Solidarity!

My brother has a severe mental health illness and he too fixates on certain topics to be repeated endlessly. Not that I entertain it...I simply end the call. It’s all I can do because he’s relentless. Nothing I say makes a jot of difference. I don’t have the patience or the hours to sit through it.

You can’t go on being her on-call listening service ffs. If nothing else, stop responding to the texts and calls as much and end the call when she starts warming to her theme.

I had a friend exactly like this. Told them never contact me again in the end. Because treating me as an unpaid therapist and support worker was out of order. Being asked to cross the country to hold their hand was also a bit much. The thing is I've recently heard they are just the same after many years. Still blaming everyone else and everyone is against them, abusive and often drug dealers to boot. Fucking nightmare and fuck that. My conclusion is some people enjoy the attention. Fuck them.

I don’t know that it’s as simple as them just wanting the attention. I don’t think anyone would actively choose to be that needy, as it’s a very stressful existence.

My ex best friend behaved exactly like this. She fell out with virtually everyone who knew her, including her loyal DH (they have now split up) and her family. She also borrowed money from everyone who was gullible enough to lend it to her (including me). I lent her a large sum of money, which she never repaid, she wasn’t able to as it later turned out. (She convinced me that the money was to stop one of her two properties being repossessed and that she would then sell it, then paying me back the money. It turned out that her debts exceeded the value of both her properties.)

Yes, she was selfish. But she was also bipolar and was sectioned a couple of times. She was also deeply unhappy.

I’m glad that I’m no longer in contact with her, though. Although my DH and I didn’t lend her more than we could afford, it was an expensive lesson about trusting someone who I already knew deep down was an addict (a shopaholic) and a user. I felt sorry for her and also saw her as a friend who needed my help.

@Mittens030869

Unfortunately out of control reckless spending is a feature of the disorder. No one knows why. It's not on purpose. Never lend money to someone Bipolar. Friend went overdrawn and I wouldn't respond to hints even though I knew she had none. It's a road you can't go down.

@PurpleTrilby

I hear you. Unfortunately I think she will have to reach Rock Bottom before she changes. I saw this happen to someone else and going lower than she ever thought she'd go gave her the impetus she needed to get her life together. This friends Rock Bottom, is I fear, many years away yet, due to her levels of denial. I am going to write and explain, giving her another fortnight to get a bit better, but I expect it to fade when those topics are cut off.

I had a friend like this, and - with a young baby- I couldn’t answer her calls, or provide the attention she needed. So I simply stopped answering. It’s really not your job to save her - and you can make an online adult social services referral if you are concerned. I would just say that you have been finding things hard yourself, that you need some space and you won’t be contactable for a while. And then don’t answer, refer if you are concerned or suggest an alternative help service.

If her response to your need for space alarms you then I’d refer. But this isn’t your responsibility - and you shouldn’t be made to feel that it’s your responsibility.

just text her or email, sorry i'm not the person to help you with this,
i need help myself.
if she persists just keep talking about your problems. don't let her take the lead. talk over her, as if not hearing her interruptions.
i had a clingy person once, not so extreme as this, but i didn't want to be unkind. so i was just very boring when she rang. eg when she asked what i'd been up to, i'd describe housework in great detail.
she had a bit of a crush on me, so that's why i decided to just be very boring, rather than high-handed, alarmed, or drawing boundaries talk.
eventually her interest tailed off. fortunately.
sometimes a kind of lateral thinking can help.
i agree it's not your problem, and you need to protect yourself.
so maybe try telling her how you are struggling, ask her for help.
she'll probably distance herself if you present as the needy one. change the dynamic. good luck.

Thank you @alexdgr8 and @Cogfarm I haven't sent the letter yet as I think it will be 2 weeks at least til she is "better in herself" but I am being A LOT more firm.

This whole situation sounds really tricky and I appreciate how vulnerable your friend is but you are clearly very deeply involved with how she feels and that would terrify me for similar reasons you describe. We live in such strange times now where we are given messages about being available and kind to others in severe distress or crisis as though it is a black and white phenomenon when actually the reality of listening and being receptive to someone who has no clear idea of boundaries or is unable to cope with rejection can be hugely detrimental to our own mental health as you have so described here. I understand why you feel this: 'I don't want her to feel abandoned or rejected, because of how awful it is' and I think we can all empathise with that statement but unfortunately part of healthy emotional growth is learning to deal with that, and we generally have to learn that on our own or in therapy if we haven't developed this in childhood. We can't expect friends or family members to never leave us, life just doesn't work like that. I hope you find a level of boundaries that you are comfortable with.