Relationship with DB

[ThePurpleOctopus]

Hello all. This is going to be long, so thank you in advance for reading and responding, if you do.

Short story: Me (and DH, plus three kids) and my parents have sold our respective houses and bought one together that is larger with an annexe next door, for us all to live together. DB (and SIL, by extension, I guess) hasn't spoken to me since he knew this was happening. It's been six months, and we've now been in this new house around two months.

Long story: for many years, me and DM have been talking on and off about living together. DP have provided a fair bit of childcare for both me and DB (DB and SIL have two children, and our children are all aged between 1 and 7), and has stayed with us while doing this (and stayed at DB's when doing it for him). I would describe myself as being close with my parents, and my DH loves them too.

My DH hasn't wanted to leave the city we lived in, and that was a deal-breaker for him for a long time. DP never wanted to live in a city, so it's regularly been discussed offhand about living together but no one ever thought it was a reality. FYI: I would also very happily live with MIL, and DB and his family, if they wanted to.

Anyway, COVID and WFH changed things, plus me and DH getting older (mid-30s) and thinking about the life we want for our DC. Suddenly, he showed an interest in living outside of our city and got excited by the countryside life, and how we'd be able to get a bigger and better house (city money going further outside of the city, etc.). This has also come at a time when DH is changing jobs, so we're both about to WFH indefinitely, or with occasional visits to the city.

It then just happened really quickly, and none of us four (me, DH, DM, DF) really expected it at all. We went from vague, offhand discussions about potential areas to live in, to suddenly finding 'the one' and putting our offer in (neither of us was on the market, that's how quickly this happened).

When DB was told, I hear from my DP that he was VERY shocked and not expecting it at all (fair enough, totally). And from that day he hasn't spoken to me and won't answer my texts (in that time I've sent maybe 1-4 a month - going from 'how are you' and 'haven't heard from you in a while, is everything ok?' at first, to now one a month with a general question or comment in case he wants to reply. He reads them all but doesn't reply. I was worried I'm harrassing him, but there's a family WhatsApp for our family and he posts photos of his children in there, knowing I'll see them. So I'm hoping he doesn't think I'm messaging too much.

By extension, he hasn't spoken to DH in the same timeframe, nor my children. SIL replies to my texts (used to be frequent and we had a good relationship, but are now few and far between) briefly and distantly. Hasn't asked how we are, etc. A few weeks after finding out about the house plans, DB and SIL sent all our Christmas presents in the post - this was September, and at the time the plan was for them to host us at Christmas. (We didn't know what was coming in terms of the COVID rules at that point). So very quickly me and DH realised how the relationship was fracturing. I messaged 'merry Christmas' to DB and he chose not to reply.

DH and DP think DB is very ridiculous and will 'snap out of it' at some point. They say they're all quite taken aback with his behaviour. For me, I'm devastated. Probably not a day has gone by that I haven't thought about DB or tried to speculate what he thinks or why he has cut our relationship.

I don't really know what I want from this post. I know that I can't force DB to do anything, and he might or might not come round. I guess if anyone reads this and sees something obvious that he's upset about and I can try to fix it, then I'd be grateful. I've speculated for months on what's going on....

1. Is it that he wants to live with us? (From DP I understand the answer is definitely not, and I'd be surprised if he did)
2. Is it that he wants to live with my DP? (Possibly. One month before we decided to do this, he and SIL moved into their forever house in the country (it took months to build it, so a fair bit of time coming), and it has a loft room. DB has mentioned in the past that DP could stay in the loft room when they're elderly; DP are surprised at this because it won't be very accessible to older people if it's not on the ground floor).
3. Is it that he wants to be closer to us all? (Maybe, but it would be arguing a tiny point. He used to be ~2.5 hrs from me, now it's about 55 mins. He used to be 45 mins from DP, now he's 55 mins - apparently he's cross that they've moved further away from him).
4. Is it that he wants to live where we now do (Possibly, as it's a special part of the country for our family, and a lovely countryside, but he and SIL chose country 1 hour down the road instead).
5. Is it that he's worried about DP's relationship with DGC? (Possibly, and this was a HUGE point of mine when we made this decision to move. He won't know it, but I've been clear with DP from the start that I want to make sure DB and SIL's children can visit without feeling like it's OUR home. As a result, we've found somewhere where DP have separate living space in their annex next door, and I've already said that sometimes when DB and SIL visit, me and DH and DC should visit MIL or other family, to not always be here. I've read enough threads about how parents don't feel their children get the same attention as nieces and nephews.)
6. Is he worried about inheritance? (Possibly; if it was discussed he'd hear that DP are desperate to be fair about it, and writing various things into their will to ensure he gets 50%).

Have I done something wrong?

And (I know this is so long, I'm very sorry), the more I've thought about this, the more I've reflected back on our relationship. And the truth is, he's never really liked me, I don't think. He seems to find me intensely irritating and annoyingly (I guess you can't choose your family), and has occasionally sworn at me and been cruel. And before this happened, he didn't acknowledge my birthday, didn't acknowledge my DS's birthday, and a few other things. That is NOT to say he's a bad person - in fact, I think I've been coveting his attention our whole lives, but that if at some point in the future we are able to fix this, I probably need to listen to what he has to say and apologise to him, but maybe he should also listen to me and realise he's not been the best brother.

What do people think?

@LaLou7

I think that either you or your parents need to talk to him properly instead of letting this fester. If it's been 6 months already with no change then he's clearly not going to snap out of it any time soon. I do understand your predicament in not wanting to pester him but he's clearly ignoring you intentionally and I doubt he's just going to reply to one of your texts all of a sudden deciding he's ok with you. He might actually be waiting for you to bring the issue up directly instead of asking how he is and other generic questions. I think for the sake of the relationship between your children and nieces/nephews at the very least then you need to ask him directly (or SIL) to explain exactly what is upsetting him and causing him to go NC with you. If you have no luck via that route then your parents need to get involved. I don't mean to be rude but I never really understand how families can sweep things under the carpet for so long, when often, asking a direct question can save a lot of heartache and provide a lot of answers. Even if your brother tells you that he no longer wants a relationship with you for whatever reason, then at least you will know where you stand and can move on.

Thank you. I agree, and I messaged yesterday to be more direct and try to see if he wants to chat, rather than a generic message.

My messages in the first two months when he first went NC with me were direct and asking to chat and if he was ok, but I agree I didn't tackle it head on enough to actually mention the issue (if that makes sense). It might not seem it, but I actually agree about not sweeping things under the carpet, and I don't think this will be fixed by him eventually coming to a family event. We need to sit down and talk about it properly.

@Theworldisfullofgs

I can see where he is coming from and against the trend I doubt its really about inheritance although it will present like that. You and your parents made a big, life changing decision without him, that fundamentally changes the family dynamics. You've said you thought about how to mitigate that and has it been discussed with him? Did your parent's discuss it with thim?

Your set up changes what was the well worn groove, the dynamics of how things are done in the family - all the relationships. You did the new ground rules in your head but not with him. And even with those in place you'll have a different relationship with your parents than he will have and your parents will have a different relationship with your children than his children will have with them, its inevitable.

I can see why he would be miffed. Equally he needs to find the words to tell all of you (including his parents) how he feels.

You're right. What we've done has changed the dynamic forever. I don't know what my parents have discussed with him, but I haven't directly spoken about it with him (i.e. what I want to do to mitigate concerns he may have), because he never replied to any of my messages or took my calls.

I guess it felt weird to suddenly message and say 'you're probably worried about 'this' and 'this', but I want to do 'that' and 'that' to mitigate it, when he wasn't even talking to me. It felt like that would be too presumptive of me that he even had those concerns. But yes, maybe I should have.

@InescapableDeath

You should have spoken to him. I have experience on both sides of this. I have a younger brother I would love to be in touch with but he’s decided not to bother with me and it really hurts (and he says nothing is wrong).

I also have just found out my inlaws and SIL are moving away to a seaside town together, combining the inlaws properties (they own two) to buy a house for each of them. They can do what they want with their money but yes it does hurt that it’s been presented as done deal when they’ve been planning it for months. And they’re massively helping out SIL (like they always do) without even considering what my DH might feel. And as they’re not my side of the family there’s nothing I can say about it. But to my mind, they’re not ‘in the wrong’ but they have tried to hide it because they didn’t want to have a conversation about it.

Thank you. I promise we haven't kept anything secret for months (it was maximum two weeks, and there was no deliberate intention to hide anything, it just didn't occur to me). But I see that that's not how he feels, and that it looks different from his side.

Thinking about this in the night, it just never occurred to me to give him that immediate heads up and talk things through. He's never told me anything, and my main relationship with him has been through SIL. But this decision was different, and I should have spoken to him straight away and heard his feelings and concerns.

Op, I'm another one who's been the other side of this and I also feel it won't be about the inheritance.

My brother is the "golden child" despite vehement denial of this from my parents.

My parents look after their children for them on a weekly basis as they both have careers meaning they work long hours.

I have children too who only get to see my parents (their grandparents) about once every couple of months in pre pandemic times.

This hurts my children immensely and the anger and resentment I feel because of this is immense.

I've found it easier to go low contact than cope with the pain.

They then moved- to be closer to my brother and his children, so not quite the same as buying a house together- but still stung that their only concern is him and his children.

My entire childhood was spent feeling second best with him being the firm favourite.

It was so obvious that even childhood friends would comment on it.

My brother and my parents just don't see it like that though.

Your brother is probably hurting, a lot.

My mother had my sibling live with her for years when she went back to Uni as an adult. She then bought them a house in the same village. They saw each other daily.
My sibling is technically my half sibling, and I was told that they would inherit everything, as I would "presumably " have an inheritance from my father so it wouldn't be fair on my sibling.
The thing is, none of this was forced by my sibling. They didn't have a spell over my mother. It was all offered, not requested.
My mother made all the choices.
I don't hold any resentment toward my sibling.
I think if there's any fixing to be done, it's between your parents and brother. You've nothing to apologise for. You didn't hold a gun to your parents' heads. And tbh, isn't pleading for crumbs from your brother wearing a bit thin??

I expect it's a combination of things rather than just one cause.
Feeling left out or that you are favoured, wondering how his and his children's relationship with your parents will be affected, less (free) childcare, and potentially no inheritance while you end up with a large property.
And you sending him breezy 'how are you' messages rather than addressing things directly will just be adding to his feelings of you all not caring.
Don't wait for him to reply, or send a vague message about wanting to talk. Be direct. I'd avoid mentioning any reasons like it happening quickly as he'll probably see it as excuses no matter how valid they may be. I think your parents need to say something too.
It's not necessarily going to make everything suddenly change but I think it's the only way if you want to try and maintain a relationship. If he carries on ignoring you afterwards then that's his decision.

I don't mean to be rude but I never really understand how families can sweep things under the carpet for so long, when often, asking a direct question can save a lot of heartache and provide a lot of answers. Even if your brother tells you that he no longer wants a relationship with you for whatever reason, then at least you will know where you stand and can move on.

100% this. You know he's not speaking to you and you know (in general terms) why. I don't think all the vague 'are you ok DB' messages over months have been helpful. An acknowledgement that he's upset/angry and that you want to understand why and try and sort it out would go a long way if I were your DB. And at least then you'll know exactly where you stand.

OP, I think your DP are responsible for sorting this out. They should have had a conversation with your DB, before selling up and moving. I suspect it is easier for your DB to be angry with you, as the ramifications of him expressing his hurt, disappointment and anger to your DP has far reaching ramifications.

If you are honest with yourself, firstly if your DP and your DB had done what you and your DP did, how would you feel? Secondly, are you really suggesting you sold two houses and bought one in the space of 2 weeks and that there was absolutely no time to tell your DB know of the plans? That sounds unlikely to me. You have said your DP seem unable to understand your DB behaviour. Is this really true? They really can't understand why he may have felt excluded from a major family decision and therefore is quite hurt. Or did they decide it was easier not to engage with your DB until after the move was done and dusted so they didn't have to deal with his reaction?

All in all I think both your DP and you have behaved badly and I can totally understand your DB feelings. That dose not mean the move should not have happened, but I think your brother should have at least been included in the conversations.

As the sibling who often simply gets told what is happening after the fact, I sympathise with your DB. The fact that it was fast isn't really the point, he was just presented with this. My sister and parents did this kind of thing all the time, still do, and it never ceases to irritate me. Especially as if I then do something that they think impacts them, they are quick to be vocal about why it's a problem.

The big mistake here was that you didn't address it head on. if you really want a relationship you need to say something direct to your DB. Nothing vague. "I know you're upset but while I can imagine all kinds of reasons why, I don't know specifically and therefore I can't fix/apologise/change anything without you telling me. Please can we talk or email to discuss?"

Unfortunately, what you hear might not help that much - some of what he feels may well be unfair or irrational and that means you can't fix it - but at least you'll know and have the opportunity to try.

@NerdyBird

I expect it's a combination of things rather than just one cause. Feeling left out or that you are favoured, wondering how his and his children's relationship with your parents will be affected, less (free) childcare, and potentially no inheritance while you end up with a large property. And you sending him breezy 'how are you' messages rather than addressing things directly will just be adding to his feelings of you all not caring. Don't wait for him to reply, or send a vague message about wanting to talk. Be direct. I'd avoid mentioning any reasons like it happening quickly as he'll probably see it as excuses no matter how valid they may be. I think your parents need to say something too. It's not necessarily going to make everything suddenly change but I think it's the only way if you want to try and maintain a relationship. If he carries on ignoring you afterwards then that's his decision.

I appreciate all that advice, thank you.

@Triffid1

As the sibling who often simply gets told what is happening after the fact, I sympathise with your DB. The fact that it was fast isn't really the point, he was just presented with this. My sister and parents did this kind of thing all the time, still do, and it never ceases to irritate me. Especially as if I then do something that they think impacts them, they are quick to be vocal about why it's a problem.

The big mistake here was that you didn't address it head on. if you really want a relationship you need to say something direct to your DB. Nothing vague. "I know you're upset but while I can imagine all kinds of reasons why, I don't know specifically and therefore I can't fix/apologise/change anything without you telling me. Please can we talk or email to discuss?"

Unfortunately, what you hear might not help that much - some of what he feels may well be unfair or irrational and that means you can't fix it - but at least you'll know and have the opportunity to try.

Appreciate all of this, thank you. I've now sent a more direct message, and specifically acknowledged that my previous messages were clearly not what he needed or wanted to see.

@littlemissdirectional

OP, I think your DP are responsible for sorting this out. They should have had a conversation with your DB, before selling up and moving. I suspect it is easier for your DB to be angry with you, as the ramifications of him expressing his hurt, disappointment and anger to your DP has far reaching ramifications.

If you are honest with yourself, firstly if your DP and your DB had done what you and your DP did, how would you feel? Secondly, are you really suggesting you sold two houses and bought one in the space of 2 weeks and that there was absolutely no time to tell your DB know of the plans? That sounds unlikely to me. You have said your DP seem unable to understand your DB behaviour. Is this really true? They really can't understand why he may have felt excluded from a major family decision and therefore is quite hurt. Or did they decide it was easier not to engage with your DB until after the move was done and dusted so they didn't have to deal with his reaction?

All in all I think both your DP and you have behaved badly and I can totally understand your DB feelings. That dose not mean the move should not have happened, but I think your brother should have at least been included in the conversations.

Thank you for this. I can agree on not behaving well, in hindsight, and I want to fix this.

I do disagree on two points though:

1. I don't think this is on my DP to sort out. They need to sort out THEIR relationship with him, but if I want one with him, that needs to be from ME sorting it out (and I appreciate he may not want one back, of course).

1. I'm not at all suggesting we bought and sold houses in two weeks - I was just saying that's the timeframe from making the decision to putting in an offer (which was later accepted, and then we put ours on the market). DB was told (and yes, I know 'told' isn't what we should have done) two days before the offer was put in, so almost two weeks after we'd made the decision and started looking. I don't mean to say we didn't have time to talk to him earlier (we did, and clearly should have done), but it really wasn't a case of months going by and us not saying anything or hiding anything, I promise.

I think if there's any fixing to be done, it's between your parents and brother. You've nothing to apologise for. You didn't hold a gun to your parents' heads. And tbh, isn't pleading for crumbs from your brother wearing a bit thin??

This.

Your DB didn’t want a RS with you beforehand. He treats you disrespectfully. Why are you chasing after him?
Where is your dignity?
And where also are your boundaries - how can you continue to text someone 30 times with no response. He has clearly made a NC decision and you are choosing to ignore this with your disingenuous texts. You know why he is hurt but you want and continue to sweep it under the table and expect a RS with him on these terms. He’s not playing ball. Your “RS” with him was one sided already - very entrenched dynamic for decades - and this is just the end of the line. Just accept it - it isn’t salvageable - there was nothing there anyway.

Your DP are the ones who have not stepped up - they should have taken the trouble to talk with their son and reassured any concerns about inheritance, visiting, DGCs etc. They chose not to and they continue not to address this directly with their son.

Why?

Are they in assertive? Are they scared of him?

They are also painting this as an issue to be fixed between you and your DB. But the real issue is with them and their son.

When did you move? When did your DPs last see their DGC and DS?

What will the arrangement be now - and how will the cousins socialise?

What was the % investment by DP in your property - how much is this of their assets?

What is the exit strategy / contingency plan if anyone divorces, gets made redundant, gets ill, needs residential care or dies?

It's sounds like your DB was never interested in having a relationship with you? From his side there seems to be historical issues that pre-date the massive clanger or you moving with your DP.

I suspect for him this was the final nail in the coffin.

It seems he has always taken his anger/hurt/disappointment in DP treatment of him out on you.

OP you said upthread "I don't know what my DP's have discussed with him "

I think you absolutely need to know what's been said.

That's quite a large gap in crucial information to be missing if you/we are to understand the true dynamic here.

this is about money and the fact it seems none of you discussed it with him beforehand, surely? I can see his point, you should have discussed it with him before making an offer.

He's been abruptly disinherited in favour of you and your family and noone so much as bothered to tell him. My guess is that this is the enormous straw which broke the camels back.

Are you the favourite? Is he the family scapegoat?

There's no fixing this OP, without somehow structuring the house ownership to reinstate his inheritance (plus a lot of work by your parents to demonstrate equality of feeling to his family). Of course that would entail you buying him out, possibly needing to sell, when your parents died and I'm sceptical you're willing to do that.

So I would presume this is not fixable.

My guess would be that he's jealous of your relationship with your parents and always has been to some degree.
I'm also wondering if your DH is seen as a bit of a golden boy which has made him resent you even more.
He's worried about his children's relationship with their grandparents - worries they'll end up feeling as he does- second best.
Also issues with inheritance. He feels he will loose out.

Definitely inheritance.

It’s the inheritance and feeling left out. It’s is your parents job to smooth this over, not yours. You are a beneficiary of this plan, and he is the one most likely to lose out, but it was your parents decision to do this with you - you didn’t force them into anything. I think it is most likely resolved by your parents sitting down with him and explaining how the inheritance will be distributed fairly.

Very difficult to rectify op, I can see exactly why your brother feels aggrieved and side-lined. I do think when your the favoured child, it’s very hard to see the other side of it and you are clearly your parents preferred offspring. I think if you want to sort this you need to point out to your parents exactly how and where the four of you have gone wrong ie. not involving him in a major change in all your circumstances and the fact that your family (not his) will be up front and no1 in your parents lives. He’ll now not share equal access to them and he’s pissed off at not being consulted about it. It’s up to your parents to sort their issues with your brother, and for your part you’ll need to get very proactive to repair the damage.
Good luck as I think you may have a job on your hands.
I not so sure this is an inheritance issue, he’s just been badly hurt I’d say.

Just another thought. Sit and really think hard about how you would’ve felt if him and his wife had done that.

Having RTFT there’s blame on both side - but more on your brother.
While you could’ve given him more notice going NC for no apparent abuse is childish and pathetic.
Personally it sounds like you’ve scuppered his own little plans snd thats why he’s pissed.

Just another thought. Sit and really think hard about how you would’ve felt if him and his wife had done that.

Exactly! I often find these threads bizarre, in my world most people would feel hurt for a few reasons in the brothers shoes.

If I was your brother I would be feeling incredibly hurt by this situation and would find it hard to get past. It must have come as a huge shock to him. Essentially, you and your parents have changed the whole dynamic of the family without including him, because by living together, the family unit is now your parents, you, husband and kids. Your brother, wife and kids are on the outside and that must hurt.
Also, he can now no longer have a relationship with his parents that doesn't involve you. You say you've made it clear that his kids should visit and not think of it as your house, but it is your house so that's just not possible. If he visits his parents you are there because it's your home. If your parents visit him he'll feel like he's excluding you if you're not invited. He can't win. I get on well with my siblings and their partners and kids but I really cherish my individual relationship with my parents - you've taken that away.
The fact that your husband and parents think he's being ridiculous must only add to his hurt.
Have you tried calling him? Sending messages is a bit lame. If you want to speak to him, call him. Arrange to go for a walk with him, or sit in a park with him, or anything. Don't leave it to a "how are you" message.