Help me cope

[CrazyCircles]

After years of therapy, psychiatry, medicine reviews, hormone tests, and marriage counselling, there are no further reasonable options left to try to resolve my wife's aversion to sexual intimacy (intercourse, oral, sexual touching, kissing etc.).

Our latest therapist says we've reached the point where we just need to accept it and focus on enjoying what we do have, in the way of a wonderful family life with our kids. He says my wife has a psychological condition, probably trauma-related, which means that sexual intimacy has become simply impossible for her.

My wife can live with this, but I feel panicked about committing to celibacy for the rest of my life when I'm only in my forties. We discussed an open marriage, but my wife feels that she has put incredible efforts into resolving this (which is true), and that it seems harsh for me to seek sex elsewhere, or to leave the marriage, when she is just as much of a victim of this as I am, if not more. I can totally see her point.

I feel like I've lost hope that our marriage can ever be what I want it to be. And I feel incredibly guilty for wanting it to be more. And weak for not being able to cope and put her happiness first. Me feeling this way makes my wife feel guilty too, and as if she's not good enough, which is horrible for her.

I just feel completely lost.

@noego

You mean Orgasmic Meditation? Yes, tried it quite a bit maybe 3 years back. It didn't do anything much for my wife, and if I'm honest I couldn't see the point in it!

Did you read what soulofanaggron said about her experience of EMDR?

@SoulofanAggron

Thanks for this. I'll see if my wife is up to try EMDR. She had reached the point of saying "no more" with any form of therapy, but given this is a bit different, she might be willing to have one last go. We are really struggling with money now though - we added it all up, and have spent nearly £20,000 on trying to resolve this issue over the past 7 years...

You say she isn’t happy

But it sounds like she is content to stay in the marriage & expect you to remain in a situation which isn’t happy.

If you have kids it sounds like you’re the chump who has given her the kids she wanted, the lifestyle & help finance her life but you don’t get laid.

Don’t you feel sold short?

I am not a big believer in repressed hidden memories - usually if someone has a traumatic event they will have some memories associated with it. To have subconscious memories you work through with a therapist sounds like bulldust to me.

I think your wife has a low sex drive, put out while she had to & is now asking you to commit to a life of celibacy, because that’s what she wants out of life.

This will end in at least some emotional affair. You’re 40 - The chances of not meeting someone else you feel a spark for is unlikely. One day you will encounter someone who will make you realise that your marriage makes you unhappy enough to leave.

It sounds like you’re still at the stage of looking into solutions, but if you admit to yourself your sex life likely was never all that great to begin with.

I think she guilt trips you by using family (ie children and the family as a collective) against you & you feel that having your own needs met is selfish

My prediction is if she actually thought you were walking out the door right now she would start hysterical bonding & actually fuck you.

I also think all these talk therapies for so many years do nothing but make a selfish person even more selfish

Too long spent navel gazing about imaginary supressed negative memories about sex

Too little time spent asking someone how they reconcile trapping their partner into a sexless marriage but will not compromise to allow this need to be met elsewhere

I predict she hides behind therapy & having “issues”

At the end of the day you are still celibate & this isn’t the agreement of the marriage you entered into.

She hasn’t suffered an injury, no actual solid info about past sexual abuse, no horrific accident.... yes there is for better or for worse.

That’s not what this is about.

Apologise she had a traumatic birth

Still went back for another one though huh 🤔

Jesus, gutful, full of compassion ain't you?

@CrazyCircles

The point of OM is to come out of the subconscious mind where trauma is held to release any inhibitions that the subconscious is holding onto.
It goes without saying that OM goes alongside psychosexual therapy. It is not a quick fix!!!
From your POV it seems that you are in a relationship that is not to your liking and which is making you feel uncomfortable. In that instance you're therefore being manipulated and controlled by your wife's insistence that you be celibate. She does not have that right over you!!

In that instance you're therefore being manipulated and controlled by your wife's insistence that you be celibate. She does not have that right over you!!

@noego His wife mustn't feel made to have sex she doesn't want (which is ery unpleasant.) Most women wouldn't want their husband shagging someone else, even if they don't feel up to sex themselves. Monogamy is most people's idea of what a relationship entails, so OP's wife not wanting him to shag other people is not unusual.

He can either live with it, or if he feels he's going to shag someone else, should split up with her.

@SoulofanAggron

I think you might be missing the PPs point. I didn't agree with their views overall, since I don't think my wife is in any way attempting to manipulate or control me, but I think the point the PP was trying to make was not that my wife should feel obliged to have sex (which as you point out, would be very unpleasant, and wrong), but that in the absence of any wish herself to have sex with me that she doesn't have any right to insist on me being celibate.

While it is true that by default marriages are monogamous, it is also true that the flip side to monogamy is a sexual relationship, which is also part of the default for a relationship. In fact, without any sex at all it isn't really "monogamy" (mono means "one", not "none"!), it is simply celibacy, which certainly isn't part of the general expectation for a relationship.

The fact that (as you put it) I have the choice to split up is a cop-out point, since the penalties to do so in terms of kids, financials, and the parts of my marriage that are good, are very substantial. Leaving a marriage "over sex" is also pretty frowned on, making the social cost significant too. Pretty harsh to lay that on the person in the relationship who just wants it to be "normal", and to absolve the other person (who wants an abnormal, sexless, relationship) of any responsibility whatsoever.

If my mortgage company suddenly ripped up my contract and insisted that I pay twice the rate, the fact that I could hand back the keys to my house wouldn't make their actions any more fair.

in the absence of any wish herself to have sex with me that she doesn't have any right to insist on me being celibate.

@CrazyCircles What are the alternatives? That's what I was saying in my post. She doesn't want her husband to shag other people, to make it an open relationship (and it's normal for a wife not to want that- that was my point. Even if a couple don't have sex much it doesn't mean it's abnormal for her to not want her husband shagging other women. Monogamy is what most people sign up for and if she doesn't want you shagging other people that's not abnormal. That's what I was saying.

without any sex at all it isn't really "monogamy" (mono means "one", not "none"!),

Monogamy = one wife. You have one. Sex is not an entitlement. That's why marital rape is illegal in most of the civilized world.

Leaving a marriage "over sex" is also pretty frowned on, making the social cost significant too. Pretty harsh to lay that on the person in the relationship who just wants it to be "normal", and to absolve the other person (who wants an abnormal, sexless, relationship) of any responsibility whatsoever.

What do you suggest?

If my mortgage company suddenly ripped up my contract and insisted that I pay twice the rate, the fact that I could hand back the keys to my house wouldn't make their actions any more fair.

Sex with someone else is not a right/entitlement. I think you claimed you believed that earlier in the thread, but you're showing your true colours now.

@SoulofanAggron

I'm sorry, but your post is an exercise in deception. Possibly to yourself, and definitely to others. And I'm pretty disgusted that you think I'm showing myself to feel entitled to sex, when it's quite obvious that isn't the case.

Firstly, like many words, "monogamy" has more than one meaning. The dictionary refers to yours, but also to mine:

"the practice or state of having a sexual relationship with only one partner."

Pretty clear which one I was alluding to, and which is relevant in the context of a discussion about sex.

In terms of the entitlement point, I've not even begun to imply any sense of entitlement to sex. That seems to be a fabrication of your own imagination.

You are quite correct to state than monogamy is a legitimate expectation within a marriage. Clearly that can be overriden by agreement - some couples a ethically non-monogamous, but it's certainly the default.

You erroneously and maliciously conflate the equivalent legitimate expectation that a marriage will include a sexual component with a sense of entitlement to sex. That is utter bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself. If you were to ask 100 people at the altar (ok, maybe not the most appropriate location, but still) if they had an expectation of some form of sex life, 99 of them would answer "yes". Probably a similar number to those you would profess an expectation of monogamy. Do you seriously believe all those people consider "sex" an entitlement? If they were to be asked if they felt entitled to sex with their partner, the number would be much lower.

Expectation and entitlement are not the same. You can expect something but not feel entitled to it. I suspect that most of your flawed thinking on this point stems from this basic misunderstanding.

Personally I'd be more concerned about keeping the family unit together than having sex.
But I think you've destroyed your wife by making her go through all that when she has a psychological fear of sex and completely destroyed any hope of having any - I should think all of that has killed off the very last shreds of her sexual desire.
I don't know why you just don't go and see prostitute now and then and just keep quiet about it.

@CrazyCircles I disagree that leaving a marriage for lack of sex is frowned upon!!! I certainly would never judge anyone for leaving a partner because they crave intimacy/can’t face a life of celibacy! I would wholeheartedly support any friend who wanted to leave in that situation and would hope they found a new fulfilling relationship.

Yeah getting a divorce will be tough financially and for the children but is it healthy for the children to watch you suffer in this way??? I think not.

I think you’ve tried absolutely everything and you’ve been very patient. Your wife has tried everything too and clearly on some level she’s unhappy about the situation too. From what you’ve said I cannot see how you can stay together and both feel happy.

Even if leaving a marriage for lack of sex WAS frowned upon, who the fuck cares! You are a young man and you deserve to feel desired, you are not entitled to sex with your wife but you’re entitled to want sex IN your life! If you can’t have that with your wife and it’s important to you then leave her. There are women out there who are sexual, who can meet your needs and you can meet theirs. Your wife will probably be happier too in a better-suited relationship with another person.

TLDR: I commend you for your patience but you’ve reached the end of the line. Leave your wife and find sexual fulfilment!

The fact that (as you put it) I have the choice to split up is a cop-out point, since the penalties to do so in terms of kids, financials, and the parts of my marriage that are good, are very substantial.

Unfortunately there are no painfree solutions when you have a serious intractable incompatibility.

Yes, divorce sucks but you're in your forties, you have time to rebuild from any financial losses and if handled well, an amicable divorce and co-parenting can work nicely. You don't have to proclaim you left over lack of sex to everyone, you don't have to explain your reasons in any depth with anyone outside of the divorce court and your wife.

Your other choices:

• celibacy within the marriage, and in your 40s I don't think that's sensible or happy-making. You could have another 4 decades ahead of you.

• revisit the idea of an open marriage

• cheat or pay prostitutes. Which when caught, will likely lead to a very non-amicable divorce. And "I paid prostitutes/cheated" are far more frowned on reasons to split.

Personally I'd see if your wife is willing to try EMDR and hang on a bit longer to see if anything changes.

The problem is OP, do you know yourself what you want— is it that you want her to agree to an open marriage? Because the way I see it there are only 3 solutions— you separate amicably and stay good friends, an open marriage or you accept that sex isn’t going to feature and it’s even less likely to feature if your wife is constantly feeling she has to see someone about it. I say this as someone who feels somewhat like your wife - but am quite a bit older than yourselves, have been through menopause etc— if my H decided to separate because he wanted more, I would be sad, but would understand why- I just know that I struggle to actually feel interested in that way and I think I would with anyone to be honest these days after a few months. I don’t think in many cases like this their is a satisfactory solution so you have to decide if it matters to you enough to separate but if you do be fair, be kind.

How awful for your wife.
She must be feeling really sad and scared.

How is she feeling?

If you google “monogamy definition” it is clear that a definition of it is having a sexual relationship with one person.

It’s not the wife doesn’t want him to have sex with other women - she doesn’t want sex at all so it’s essentially commanding that he live an asexual / celibate type life as she would prefer to.

That’s not monogamy - that is trapping someone & controlling them using guilt.

The OP is obviously the caretaking type & therapy has been focusing on the wife’s feelings here. He sounds as supportive as anybody could hope to expect given the circumstances.

The reality is most people who have self esteem & know their self worth would not stay in a controlling relationship.

Has your wife had therapy on her own without you?

Is her aversion to sex a physical problem or a psychological problem or both?

She sounds as though she has been pushed from pillar to post and I agree she must feel very sad and scared if she is feeling you will desert her and choose other options to fulfil your sex life.

It's a very difficult situation but it sounds as though you have essentially made your mind up, you don't wish to loose the benefits of your marriage but feel you should be able to EXPECT a sexual partner.

Tell your wife you expect a sexual relationship and allow her to make the choice whether she wants to remain your wife.
Someone has to make a decision.

@Onthedunes

"It's a very difficult situation but it sounds as though you have essentially made your mind up, you don't wish to loose the benefits of your marriage but feel you should be able to EXPECT a sexual partner."

It does seem that way, doesn't it.... the comforts of the relationship sounds like they outweigh his upset at a lack of sexual relationship. But instead of accepting that's who this person is & making the best of things, he is focused on therapy/changing his partner & there seems to be this expectation that one day a magical cure will be found & his wife will be NORMAL again & return to normal wifely functionality.

In reality the writing is on the wall that this couple will never have a good, active sex life.

Throwing good money after bad with all this therapy - what he really could benefit from is a "fleshlight" (outdated term but you know what I mean) so he can explore his sexually in a safe space. Instead of spending money on therapy it would be better spent on sex toys for himself IMO

You aren't required to sacrifice a huge part of your own one and only life here on planet Earth, merely because you pity her.

Divorce, be friends and co-parents, and enjoy your own sex and romance elsewhere.

She is bonkers and selfish to expect you to shackle your life to her unfortunate neuroses. A loving person would not demand that of you.

She was selfish to marry, knowing she had issues that would preclude a healthy sexual relationship. Go forth guilt-free!

"That’s not monogamy - that is trapping someone & controlling them using guilt. "

Exactly. Marriage is a two-way street. Expecting someone to become celibate for life is absurd.

They need to separate and co-parent. If the wife is afraid of losing a meal ticket she needs to train for some sort of job. Expecting him to lead half a life is beyond selfish and unrealistic.

"Personally I'd be more concerned about keeping the family unit together than having sex.
But I think you've destroyed your wife by making her go through all that when she has a psychological fear of sex and completely destroyed any hope of having any - I should think all of that has killed off the very last shreds of her sexual desire.
I don't know why you just don't go and see prostitute now and then and just keep quiet about it."

What uptight, pious hogwash.

"Monogamy = one wife. You have one. Sex is not an entitlement. That's why marital rape is illegal in most of the civilized world."

But he doesn't have a wife. He has a platonic housemate and co-parent. So the argument about "one wife" is rather moot.

@gutful

I also think all these talk therapies for so many years do nothing but make a selfish person even more selfish

Too long spent navel gazing about imaginary supressed negative memories about sex

Too little time spent asking someone how they reconcile trapping their partner into a sexless marriage but will not compromise to allow this need to be met elsewhere

I predict she hides behind therapy & having “issues”

At the end of the day you are still celibate & this isn’t the agreement of the marriage you entered into.

She hasn’t suffered an injury, no actual solid info about past sexual abuse, no horrific accident.... yes there is for better or for worse.

That’s not what this is about.

All of this. She had a responsibility to avoid marriage if it were so repugnant. Not enmesh OP into her problems.