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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Was it rape?

66 replies

notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 15:00

NC for this because (for reasons which will become clear as you read). I’m not sure why I’m posting this now several years down the line. I just wanted people‘s thoughts on it really as it’s recently come back into my mind.

A few years ago, before I met my current partner, I briefly dated this guy I met online. After our second date, I agreed to go back to his house. We watched TV for a bit, had a drink (I was fully sober as I was driving home afterwards so only had one). He was getting very touchy feely downstairs and after a while suggested we go upstairs. I wasn’t massively opposed to it, nor was I massively in the mood for it (I wasn’t that into him) - I sort of just went along with it really (not sure why).

Anyway, just before we were about to have sex (both of us clothes off at this point and in the bed), I said to him “have you got a condom?” to which he replied “no, I don’t use that rubbish”. Then, without waiting for me to say anything more, he was on top of me and penetrated me. I let it go on but I was feeling very uncomfortable (I was on the pill but I wanted to use condoms too as I didn’t know him at all). I wanted to say “stop” but the word just didn’t come out for some reason.

Shortly afterwards, I’d say no more than 5 minutes, there was knock at his door (takeaway that we had ordered had arrived). He seemed a bit annoyed at the interruption but got up, pulled his trousers on and said “don’t you go anywhere” with a smile, then went downstairs for the food. I saw this as my opportunity (I didn’t feel respected by him and just wanted out of there). I grabbed my clothes and put them on as fast as I could and went downstairs where he was plating up the food. I said “I’ll just eat this and then I’ll have to get back”. I used my babysitter needing to go home as an excuse (my daughter was fine and safely with a family member overnight so it was lie but I wanted to get out).

He seemed disappointed but I ate quickly then left. I vowed on the drive home never to see him again. Then I forgot all about it, blocked his number etc, and moved on. Fast forward a few months a met current partner, who I’ve been with ever since (4 years).

I recently told my partner about this experience (I’m not sure why but we were discussing previous “bad dates” and it came up). He looked horrified and said “so this man raped you”. I said no, definitely not, I consented, I went upstairs with him, after he said he didn’t like using condoms I didn’t say anything further to him (but he didn’t really give me a chance to be fair), I didn’t tell him firmly to stop, and also I didn’t have any condoms with me myself. So how has he raped me? Surely I could have done more to stop him? Or I could have taken more responsibility myself?

My partner says I’m wrong and insists he did rape me, because I clearly asked him to use a condom and he refused and was inside me before I could object further.

Who is right? Was I raped? It was so long ago that I obviously don’t plan on doing anything about it now. But I just want to be clear in my mind about whether or not I was raped.

Any thoughts welcome to help me make sense of it all. Thanks.

OP posts:
rainbowrainfall · 08/03/2021 16:44

What benefit would it be for you to see this as rape?

Let's say everyone convinced you that you were raped, what next? Let's say you report it to the police, nothing will come of it. So long ago and the way you explain it doesn't make it clear whether you consented or not so he'd be given the benefit of the doubt and it would come to nothing.

I don't know if you were raped or not, I believe you and I'm sorry this has reared it's head for you but it isn't going to achieve anything asking this. If it was me, I'd accept it for what I've thought it to be all these years. You clearly have a very wonderful and caring husband, and whatever did or did not happen with this guy.. you had a lucky escape because at the very least he's a disrespectful idiot.

Don't dwell on this.. continue to live you life and be happy.

notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 17:08

@rainbowrainfall

What benefit would it be for you to see this as rape?

Let's say everyone convinced you that you were raped, what next? Let's say you report it to the police, nothing will come of it. So long ago and the way you explain it doesn't make it clear whether you consented or not so he'd be given the benefit of the doubt and it would come to nothing.

I don't know if you were raped or not, I believe you and I'm sorry this has reared it's head for you but it isn't going to achieve anything asking this. If it was me, I'd accept it for what I've thought it to be all these years. You clearly have a very wonderful and caring husband, and whatever did or did not happen with this guy.. you had a lucky escape because at the very least he's a disrespectful idiot.

Don't dwell on this.. continue to live you life and be happy.

You're right nothing good can come of it really, I definitely don't want to report it because like you say it was so long ago and would be hard to prove either way. I knew it was a grey area. That's why I wanted to see what people thought. I think it was just hard to hear my partner say "you were raped". It's not something I want to believe happened to me if that makes sense. But maybe I'm overthinking it.

OP posts:
notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 17:10

@Ruminating2020

He did not give you the chance to say anything, so you went along with it even though you didn't want to. That's not true consent.

The response you describe is "fawning" where the "safest" thing you do at that moment to prevent further violence is to comply.

Fawning is the fourth response to trauma after fight, flight, and freeze but is not often talked about. It will be no surprise then that those who respond by fawning are the least likely to report their assault. Have a look here .

This was an interesting read and it resonates with me. Once he was on top of me I sort of decided well that's that, I'll just go along with this then as he's already made his mind up. But inside I wanted so much to say stop.

OP posts:
alanpartridgefromtheoasthouse · 08/03/2021 17:13

That's probably what he was banking on OP. He didn't give you a chance to say stop before he was inside you. I would classify this as rape and I'm sorry it happened to you.

dieblauenStrumpfhosen · 08/03/2021 17:13

It is rape if you agreed to sex, but you didn't agree to sex without a condom.

Kgrzghtechh · 08/03/2021 17:16

So many scummy rape apologists on this website.

Coffeeandcocopops · 08/03/2021 17:18

My understanding and what I tell my teenage sons is that it has to be positive consensual sex. So a yes here and there and that’s nice etc etc. You didn’t say yes and you were not showing any interest so I would say that yes it was rape.

Coffeeandcocopops · 08/03/2021 17:21

@littlemisschoclover

This is obviously not a very nice experience but I personally wouldn't class this as rape. If you had said no when he said he didn't have a condom them obviously it would have been. I know I will get slated for saying this but to look at it from the other persons point of view, you willing went upstairs to have sex and didn't tell him that you didn't want to have sex so he would have had to make a guess at what you were thinking? He does sound like a dick but I think that these types of lines are getting so blurry now that I can see many seemingly innocent people getting accused of something that they didn't do.
A woman can change her mind at anytime. Silence is not consenting. It is rape.
Coffeeandcocopops · 08/03/2021 17:24

@yearinyearout

if you didnt want to be penetrated without him using a condom, then yes, its rape

Well, you have to say so though? It's not enough just to think it.

No you don’t. It has to be consensual and positive behaviour.

Thankfully I’ve told my sons this. Perhaps some of you on this thread who have sons and daughters need to read up on what rape is. It has to be consensual. Ask your kids about the cup of tea analogy.

Coffeeandcocopops · 08/03/2021 17:26

@CallMeCleo

No, you were not raped.

What happened was, you were not assertive enough, with someone who was very horny and following his dick.

I found myself acting exactly as you did many times when I was young.

Christ!! You will be saying a man has needs.
BillMasen · 08/03/2021 17:31

@yearinyearout

if you didnt want to be penetrated without him using a condom, then yes, its rape

Well, you have to say so though? It's not enough just to think it.

I’ve thought about this for a bit and I think this is where I end up. Yes he’s not been respectful or nice, but thinking no isn’t the same as saying no.

If I were in his position (I wouldn’t ever behave like that, but just assuming...) I’d probably not see anything other than consent. I think.

BillMasen · 08/03/2021 17:33

“ A woman can change her mind at anytime. Silence is not consenting. It is rape”

Absolutely agree. However, that change of mind needs to be communicated doesn’t it?

Not goading, but should a man be able to sense a change of decision and ask if it’s still ok?

RUOKHon · 08/03/2021 17:36

Consent can have conditions attached and if those conditions aren’t met then consent doesn’t exist. You can also withdraw consent at any time. Even during sex.

Your consent was conditional on him wearing a condom. He entered you knowing that. Not only was it rape but if he had knowingly given you an STD it would have been assault as well.

As others have explained, your reaction was to ‘fawn’. This is a trauma response and a survival instinct. It does not mean, as some other rape apologists have suggested in this thread, that you must have been ‘okay with it’.

Yea this was rape. True, there’s probably little point in reporting now, but reaching a place of acceptance may help you put to rest an experience that sounds like it has been niggling away at you for some years.

BillMasen · 08/03/2021 17:41

And I absolutely feel for you OP for what must have been a horrible experience.

I’d be devastated and upset if I’d put any partner in the position of feeling they couldn’t say no/stop at any time, and I’d absolutely respect that, whatever stage we were at. Instantly.

Yes consent can be conditional on anything. But that needs to be said surely?

notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 17:48

@BillMasen

And I absolutely feel for you OP for what must have been a horrible experience.

I’d be devastated and upset if I’d put any partner in the position of feeling they couldn’t say no/stop at any time, and I’d absolutely respect that, whatever stage we were at. Instantly.

Yes consent can be conditional on anything. But that needs to be said surely?

I thought by saying at the beginning have you got any condoms, it would have been obvious to him that I wanted to use them. But his response if he was a decent man surely would have been "no but I can get some if you want?" etc. Not just "no I don't use them" and straight on top of me. I felt a bit stunned by that to be honest, I thought if I just get this over with I can get out of here. Bearing in mind I didn't know him well at all so no idea if he would have got angry etc if I'd said "no stop". But maybe you're right, maybe I should have took more responsibility by saying no stop, or just not going to his house at all on a second date as it's obvious he wanted sex and I put myself in that position by going to his house.

OP posts:
Porcupineintherough · 08/03/2021 17:50

Legally, if he could be said to have to had "a reasonable belief of consent" then it's not rape. And the difficulty with the fawning response is that it can come across as acquiescence (because, as pp have said, the whole reason for the fawning response is to protect you from any violence you might attract by resisting).

Outside of the court of law I think you can define it for yourself. He didnt really have your consent, whatever he may have thought, so if it feels like rape to you I think you can definitely call it that. Or if you prefer to think of it as a shitty sexual encounter you dont have to class it as rape. Whatever helps you is right in this situation.

notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 17:53

The fawning response resonates with me and it's helped me make sense of why I just went along with it, despite inside thinking please get off me. It was because he was already on top of me before I could say anything else so I felt powerless, and also I didn't know him well enough to know what "stop, get off me" would have resulted in. Would he have continued anyway? I'll never know. But I need to put it to rest in my mind somehow.

OP posts:
BillMasen · 08/03/2021 17:53

No maybe you’re right. He wasn’t decent, that’s clear. And you did nothing wrong.

I’m probably projecting how I’d be , which is hard as I’d not act like he did.

notsurewhathappened · 08/03/2021 17:55

Also I felt like I had led him on by that point by even being at his house , in his bedroom naked etc. And he was very touchy feely downstairs etc so I felt like I'd let it go too far to say I've changed my mind, I want to leave. I'm annoyed at myself for even being in his house in the first place to be honest. But we live and learn.

OP posts:
Alexandernevermind · 08/03/2021 18:03

When I read this first time I thought very clearly no, it wasn't rape. However I don't think he took enough care to make sure you were okay with what was going on to be sure you consented. You asked if he had a condom and he said no, at that stage he should have checked you were still okay to go ahead. I think you did the right thing by getting out of their quickly and thank goodness you have someone lovely now.

Champagneandmonstermunch · 08/03/2021 18:08

One thing that is absolutely certain is that he was a shit, and you should not be blaming yourself. If he was a decent bloke you should have felt safe to say, at any point, that you wanted to stop, and know that wouldn't be a problem.

Coffeeandcocopops · 08/03/2021 19:09

@BillMasen

“ A woman can change her mind at anytime. Silence is not consenting. It is rape”

Absolutely agree. However, that change of mind needs to be communicated doesn’t it?

Not goading, but should a man be able to sense a change of decision and ask if it’s still ok?

Not sense it but if the women is laying still like a log and not saying “oh that’s nice” or “yes” or even a slight groan don't you think a nice man might ask if the women is enjoying it? Would they carry on pumping away and not look to see if the women is enjoying it or even ask? Again look up the up of tea analogy it is taught in schools.
NoMackerelInSwindon · 08/03/2021 19:44

I wouldn’t have stayed for the food.

anamazingfind · 08/03/2021 20:21

Its difficult legally as you didn't say no to sex without a condom, just asked if he had one, didn't question his assertion that he didn't use them, and didn't try to push him off or say no and willingly went upstairs. He could equally say you made no objection, didn't say anything, and just appeared to enjoy sex (which was short and interupted anyway by the doorbell). I would say in a practical sense it was rape because it wasn't what you wanted, but if you give no indication at all that you weren't happy, legally he would get away with it. I'm not saying its not rape as I believe it was and your bf is right. You were not a willing participant, but legally I don't think it would get anywhere. The twat probably still believes you consented.

anamazingfind · 08/03/2021 20:23

I think many many women act in a similar way and end up in the same situation. If its unwanted, its rape. Proving it legally is the difficulty

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