Is my mother neurodivergent?

[Raemie]

For the longest time I have been ashamed of mother.

Let me explain before I make myself sound like a total b. My mother had 6 children including me, all of whom suffered some form of mild physical and emotional neglect which sometimes crossed over to mild abuse( being left unattended, not bathed for weeks, told we shouldn’t have been born etc.) To set the scene, I’m the oldest, two of my siblings are biological and the other three are half siblings. My dad left us when I was about 5 and my mum met another man who is the father of my half siblings. we grew up in a three bedroom house, my mother claimed benefits most of her life (she did work briefly when I was a teen) and basically we were viewed as ‘hillbilly’s’ by our neighbours. We were hardly washed, our house was filthy inside and out, my mum hoards everything, cleans but doesn’t clean properly so you’d find crisp packets down the back of the sofa, dishes piled up with food left on them overnight. If anyone stepped in to clean she would get defensive and call us snobs, my stepdad did a lot of the housework but he worked full time and I’m sure he eventually gave up because my mum would never keep it clean.

Anyway to get to the point, I moved away and lived in Canada and now live in the UK. I had so much resentment towards her for years but still kept in touch with her and visit the family home in Ireland a couple of times a year (pre Covid). It’s only in recent years I have started to be slightly more understanding towards her as I am now training to be a psychologist so I understand a lot about behaviour a lot more than I did when I was younger. I am honestly starting to wonder if she has some sort of ‘special need’ or mental health problem that was never diagnosed.

These are some examples that make me think she might be neurodivergent

Firstly she used to do strange things when we were small like hide in various parts of the house to see if we’d go look for her. We used to panic of course, we would call out to her and then find her hiding in a wardrobe. I copped on at about age 8 to what she was doing so didn’t look for her anymore but saw her do it to my younger siblings.

She used to masturbate in front of the tv even if we were in the room

She never closed the door in the bathroom so I used to think it was normal to leave the door wide open while going to the toilet. She would do this when I had friends over too.

She is unable to clean, hoards things, keeps laundry on the table, old broken items out in the garden. We even had rats in the house as kids.

She has never really had friends, isolates herself away from family, gossips about people and judges them in a very obsessive way.

She is extremely chatty and appears friendly and gentle to people who wouldn’t know her but she doesn’t know when to stop talking and talks about silly things. For example, when I lived in Canada and phone her once every three months she would ask questions like, ‘do they have frozen pizza over there?’ She still checks the weather for Canada and texts me sometimes to tell me what the weather is like there even though I’ve lived in the UK for 5 years now. She knows this obviously but still thinks this is interesting information to me.

She acts like a child, will blubber at the drop of a hat. When she worked in retail briefly, the manager asked her to work Christmas eve once and she said she just burst out crying straight away instead of handling it like an adult. She also cried before because I told my younger sister (who was 12 at the time) that Santa didn’t exist, this was because she asked me. My mother cried like a baby and asked me shy I was so evil to tell my sister such a thing.

She doesn’t have great personal hygiene, rarely showers and can be smelly but when she really needs to appear clean she can do so. She seems to be very socially aware in that sense but just lazy.

She is morbidly obese and can barely walk
or find clothes to fit her. Myself and siblings have encouraged her to lose weight, she always says she will but never does.

She apparently struggled in school but did ok in English as she likes reading. In fact she can read long novels, nothing too difficult but a good long story.
She told me she walked out of most of her leaving cert exams (equivalent to A-levels) and couldn’t grasp maths at all. She did grow up in rural Ireland where she said she was constantly out down by teachers and told she was stupid. One of her sisters (whom I’m close to, had a similar experience with teachers but did ok in life).

The list could honestly go on, she’s basically very uneducated and is socially awkward and I’m beginning to think it’s something more. The thing is nobody else in her family are like that, her sisters all did ok in life, some became teachers or nurses others married ‘well’ and became house wives who raised children that excelled in life. we all struggled and all of my siblings have mental health or addiction problems, never even completed education or got jobs. I think my sister could have the same problems that my mother has as she is quite vacant compared to my other family members and reminds me of my mother a lot.

My mother had a difficult upbringing as she was brought up (unknowingly) by her grandmother and only found out at 13 that this was in fact not her mother and her real mother was her sister (who was, and still is quite mean to her). Apparently she told my mother that she would have aborted her if she had the chance. I can only imagine how confused she would have felt growing up. She talks about feelings of abandonment a lot although I think she goes on about it a little too obsessively as she wasn’t left on at some strangers doorstep but brought up and cared for by her birth family.

She also has a ‘feel sorry’ for herself attitude to most things in her life including her divorce with my dad which happened over 25 years ago. She would talk about it for hours and hours if you let her and she has done, it’s almost an obsession.

Anyway I don’t really know what I’m asking for with this long, exhausting post but I just wonder could it be a personality disorder, ASD or is she just uncaring and unbothered? Anyone have family members like this, what do you do?

Do you think she's mentally compotent as an adult? Some of her behaviour makes it sound like she might have very low IQ. Then again she could just be abusive.

I can't see anything in your post that points to Autism. I'm not very familiar with personality disorders.

What do you feel you want to achieve out of this? Maybe your mum has mental health issues or a personality disorder, but she is also abusive. And unless she's prepared to get help it's a moot point. Her behaviour won't suddenly feel OK to you because you can put a label on it. It's not OK to be abusive no matter what your background or mental health issues. A person's history, mental health, personality disorders, can all provide a reason for why we are how we are, but they never excuse abuse. Abusive behaviour is abusive no matter what the other person has been through. She was horribly abusive, you don't owe her anything. You don't owe her acceptance or mitigation for what she's done to you and your siblings because it might have a cause in some mental health or personality issue.

Thanks for your reply, it was really hard for me to write this and I didn’t think I’d even get a response. I’m not really sure what I want from this post, maybe to see if anyone else agrees with me. It would be easier if I could label it, find a reason for her behaviour, not an excuse but a reason. Low IQ would make sense however, she is quite manipulative and controlling so still think there’s more to it than that. I’ll always resent her for what she’s done to my sister, she babied her in an emotionally abusive way. For example, she kept my sister sleeping in the same bed as her until she was 16 even though there was room in my bedroom as we were the only girls( there’s no sexual abuse there, I’m sure of that). She would discourage her from ‘growing up’ and treat her like a baby but at the same time neglect her in the same way she neglected the rest of us. It’s all so weird and I’m trying to mage sense if it. My partner and I are trying for a baby now and it gets me thinking that I would never leave our children in my mother’s care but I still wonder should I stop all contact completely as I know a lot of people in similar situations do.

really felt for you reading your post. I grew up with a mother that exhibited odd behaviour and was ashamed of her, especially as a teenager. Many year later she was diagnosed as bipolar although she would not be as severe as many, she held done a job as a nurse when I was 17.

I'd suggest looking into personality disorders. I am a psychotherapist and would say I feel something is amiss beyond the classic signs of abuse, the lack of boundaries and childlike behaviour really flags that.

As said, you dont need a label, although I understand why it would be good to have one. As an adult you are free to live your life as you choose perhaps some counselling yourself would help you as you approach motherhood. This experience is likely to stir up lots of emotions, possibly even previously suppressed ones.

Take care and all the best with your baby and career.

If you are training as a psychologist then I would hope you are familiar with trauma by now although surprisingly haven't mentioned it, are wiser than to throw around terms like "personality disorder" or to suggest ASD makes people abusers, and know that diagnosis cannot be undertaken in this way.

Have you had therapy for your own trauma? Because it sounds quite extensive and I am sorry for the abuse you went through.

She was abusive. She was also traumatised by her own upbringing by the sounds of it. This is not an excuse but may explain her behaviour, in a similar way to your siblings' difficulties being caused by their trauma from their abusive childhood.

Some people find it helps in their recovery to understand, but some don't. I don't think browsing for labels will help that understanding and I'm surprised a trainee psychologist would be engaged in label shopping.

Sometimes we want to help others because of our own struggles, but if we haven't recovered and dealt with them properly then we aren't the right people to be trying to help.

What would happen if someone disclosed abuse to you that was less severe than your own? Would you be able to keep perspective ? Would you see it as abuse if it didn't match your experiences? If you can't see your mother's experiences as traumatic would you be able to see somebody else's similar experiences as traumatic?

How you safeguard your own children is a separate question. You can potentially do that whilst remaining in contact yourself, but is contact working for you personally?

Have you been on the stately homes threads?

The Survivors Trust have some resources for abuse survivors when they become mothers themselves, although it is aimed more at sexual abuse some of it might be of relevance. NAPAC might also be helpful.

My mother is probably a narcissist. She did a lot of damage before she cut all contact in my teens, especially to my older brother. She destroyed him. The best thing out mother did for us was go NC, I wish she'd done it sooner then I might not have lost my brother. As a mum I'm very glad she isn't a part of my DCs life. But every situation is different.

Do you want her as a part of your life? If you do is it that you want her as she is or that you feel guilt about going NC? Do you get something positive out of your relationship with her? After what she's done you don't owe her any consideration. Think about what you want, what's best for you and any future DC.

I dont think tbe op was saying personality disorders or autism make people abusive. I certainly wasnt suggesting that. Often times people look for a diagnosis in a way to understand and even minimise abuse.

There is a difference between helping and understanding and at this point the op is trying to understand and make sense of her childhood and why it was the way it was. Having an understanding of what her mother may of been going through is a part of that.

For me, personally, my mother's diagnosis brought me a sense of peace and forgiveness that I dont know would have come without it.

No one here is diagnosing the op's mother, but I have real understanding for why a diagnosis (if this more than abuse) could be very helpful.

@Windmillwhirl thank you for understanding, you’ve hit the nail on the head and yeah of course I wasn’t trying to find a label but trying to find a reason. I’m glad it helped for you to have a diagnosis for your mother. I feel sorry for my mother, I’ve tried explaining how her behaviour has caused us pain but she’s unable to understand it. She just goes into a blubbery mess which is very manipulative but I think she genuinely doesn’t have the self- awareness to understand a lot of things. My dad on the other hand could be a narcissist, he was aggressive and selfish but I’d never feel sorry for him because I know he is smarter than my mother and more educated. This is why I think there could be a personality disorder there for my mother but nobody cared enough to help her when she was younger. I wouldn’t even know where to begin with getting her mental health assessed because she is extremely defensive and would fly off the handle if anyone suggested doing so. Although I just think it’s terrible that she probably does have a personality disorder and has lived her life with people shunning her, calling her weird or stupid and thinking it’s her fault. If she had a diagnosis at least she could get therapy, explain to people where her odd behaviour comes from. It would help her but also her children.

@Kintsuji there are virtually no positives to keeping her in my life and I keep in contact because she’d be horribly lonely if I didn’t and yes I would feel guilt. I am glad NC with has given you some peace. I think o would do that if she ever said or did anything to my future children but believe me, she won’t get that far.

Its not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. Even if you were able to describe some personality disorders (the plural is deliberate) to her its not going to aid in your own recovery from her abuses of you. Hoarding too is a recognised mental health disorder.

I would keep any children you go onto have away from her in any event. She was an abusive parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed in all the years since. You staying in contact for the reasons you cite (she is the reason practically no-one bothers with her now ) are poor reasons and will do you no favours in the long run. You do not owe her anything let alone a relationship with her now.

Deal with your fear, obligation and guilt here through therapy. Those are powerful forces that will keep you otherwise trapped with someone like your mother.

Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend, no you would not have done. Your mother is no different.

It is really sad that no one helped her get the support she needed before she had children. If you feel an explanation would help you and aren't expecting that to change her, then pursue that . I don't know if I'd ever have gone NC or not it our mother hadn't cut us off. It's not an easy thing you do, especially if there are trauma bonds in the relationship.

I agree given her behaviour that it would not be just one thing, but a more complex diagnosis. Like low Iq, but also trauma and mental health issues. Do you have a mentor on your course or a therapist you could discuss this with? Someone experienced in MH might be able to give you some insight into her issues.

One of my friends growing up had an abusive father and a very passive mother who had low OQ. There were some things in your first post that reminded me of her.

My Dad has a lot of trauma from physical abuse as a child and mental abuse from his marriage to our mother. He does the same obsessing over the past.

It's very hard to get people to therapy that don't want to go. Even harder for them to stick at it if they see no point or dont want to be there. It is rare these days that I would take on a client because their husband/wife/family member is forcing them". Your mum may not want any help. I actually meant therapy for you, op. Your childhood like mine was traumatic; I underestimated the guilt I felt being ashamed of my mother as I just buried it and drank heavily in my 20s and 30s. It was only through addressing my own past as part of my psychotherapy degree that I really got to grips with the impact my childhood had on me, not just childhood, but also my adult life.

Whilst my mother's diagnosis brought me forgiveness of her, therapy allowed me to forgive myself and stop punishing myself for the thoughts I had about her, in part because I explored her childhood, which was also traumatic. Some of my siblings are estranged from her, but I love my mum. I accept she is who she is and wont change and we do have a better relationship now. In part probably because I live in another country (that was my plan from my mid-20s). Escaping put a physical distance between us, but the emotional trauma stayed with me for many, many years beyond that.

Regardless of the reasons for it, you were a victim of sexual and emotional abuse as a child. I think you need to start there. You may never understand why your mother is the way she is. But I think that, rather than try and unpick her behaviour, it would be a good idea to explore your own feelings and responses to the abuse in therapy.

@user141635812632
Label shopping indeed.
Your post is very harsh and off target.

Its not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. Even if you were able to describe some personality disorders (the plural is deliberate) to her its not going to aid in your own recovery from her abuses of you. Hoarding too is a recognised mental health disorder.

I disagree.

Understanding that someone has an illness, that they could not have behaved differently even if they had wished it, makes a BIG difference.

It makes a space possible in the healing process for the victim, to understand that the abusive person is not their illness. It really matters to a child to know that their treatment was not as a result of them, of their actual relationship with the parent - of which they were, after all a part. It helps to know that much of their relationship was with an illness or pathology. It can be liberating.

I am autistic and don’t recognise any of your mother’s traits either from my own experience or extensive reading on the subject.

My own mother was very abusive too and I’m no longer in contact which has helped my own mental health enormously. I would recommend talking your experiences through with a counsellor and seriously asking yourself if you want to continue seeing your mum. It is ok to walk away from a dysfunctional relationship if it will help you. I understand your need for answers as I got stuck there for years, but sometimes there are no answers and you have to find a way forwards for you and your family

Understanding that someone has an illness, that they could not have behaved differently even if they had wished it, makes a BIG difference.

I 100% agree with this.

Some of what your mother did makes me think of my own mother.
My mum is very intelligent but had a neglectful, abusive upbringing that she talks about alot. She copied some of that, but there is behaviour that I have no idea where it came from, but that could be due to her past, not copied.
She is definitely a narcissist and denies things sadly.
I wish she could have mended herself before she had kids and I resent her for it.
I have to have psychiatric intervention because of her actions.

@Haffiana

Its not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. Even if you were able to describe some personality disorders (the plural is deliberate) to her its not going to aid in your own recovery from her abuses of you. Hoarding too is a recognised mental health disorder.

I disagree.

Understanding that someone has an illness, that they could not have behaved differently even if they had wished it, makes a BIG difference.

It makes a space possible in the healing process for the victim, to understand that the abusive person is not their illness. It really matters to a child to know that their treatment was not as a result of them, of their actual relationship with the parent - of which they were, after all a part. It helps to know that much of their relationship was with an illness or pathology. It can be liberating.

What you said is part of my healing. The child biologically thinks they are the cause of their parent's actions.

I am really sorry that you had such a hard upbringing, Op.

To me, your mother sounds as though she may have a learning disability and mental health issues, but this is a guess only. I work with people who have learning disabilities and it took me a little while to understand that this doesn't mean that they are less nice / nasty than everyone else. They are people with their own personalities and foibles. I know that this sounds incredibly naive but it did take a while for me to realise that.

I hope that this is helpful.

OP, I don't see anything in your description to indicate autism. There is clearly something "off" and your childhood sounds significantly abusive - there's no "mild" about it. You were neglected terribly and masturbating in front of children is most definitely sexual abuse and will have a very long-lasting effect.

I think she does sound like there is a combination of things going on, primarily I'd suggest low IQ. Some of her behaviours sound learned, but if her siblings are "normal" (for want of a better word) then it doesn't sound like she was brought up to think hoarding, emotional manipulation, lack of understanding boundaries were learned from her parents.

That said, you never really know what your extended family are like - you only see them when you visit. I've learned from my own experience that the image a family portrays can be far divorced from the reality. One of my aunts, who on the face of it appears very calm and capable, has regular meltdowns behind closed doors and suffers from health anxiety to a point which has severely affected her life and her children. I knew nothing of this until speaking with my (now adult) cousins. And I spent a lot of time with my aunty as a child.

It's also possible that her behaviour is a trauma response in some way. The public masturbation would point to sexual trauma of some sort.

On that subject - it's not uncommon for this type of covert sexual abuse to actually be more difficult to process than abuse which included physical contact. It's much harder to name, and harder to see the effects. That doesn't make it any less severe or traumatic.

I hope you can find a way forward to protect your own mental and emotional health. Ultimately it's not up to you to try to heal your mum, and I wonder if as children you were conditioned to feel responsible for your mum's emotional needs? That is a burden a child should never have to bear

OP, my post is deleted but I hope you read it and took note. You need help with what you are feeling.

Some of her behaviours sound learned, but if her siblings are "normal" (for want of a better word) then it doesn't sound like she was brought up to think hoarding, emotional manipulation, lack of understanding boundaries were learned from her parents.

Hoarding can be dissociation, boundaries never given to her so she has no clue, manipulation often a strategy children learn who were never listened to.

The OPs mother didn’t have siblings - these were her aunts, uncles and mother.

Your DM has likely sufferered emotional and physical neglect and abuse at a very young age which has caused developmental trauma. I suspect she has no attachment to a reliable caregiver. She then it sounds went straight into another abusive and traumatic RS with your Narc Dad.

This has left her emotionally, socially deficient which means she is unable to self regulate in many areas of life and her consequent behaviours were inadequate, neglectful and abusive.

All of this explains but doesn’t excuse inter generational trauma which has been past on to you and your siblings - some of them are obviously affected as addicts - others covertly likely to have dysfunctional co-dependent traits.

Don’t know who your DM is at risk to currently - seems she is unlikely to engage in therapy.

However I would suggest that you get a simple narrative in place that you can put behind you to allow you to focus on yourself and your capacity to be an effective parent and partner. This isn’t a criticism - it’s where you can break the inter generational trauma. You will have your own deficits and flaws to address - it’s not possible that you have zero emotional wounds with that upbringing. Look to heal you not her so that you and your children have a better life.

Impact of early developmental childhood trauma on your Mum, you and your siblings is the only “label” I would ascribe.

@Sssloou and @EvenMoreFuriousVexationI agree with a lot of what you both say, according to one of my Mums sister (she refers to her aunt’s, uncles her sisters, brothers) the family home they grew up in was very dysfunctional, deeply religious but dysfunctional. Lots of emotional abuse it seems. They all seem to have a mean gene and I can see that they treated my mother as being ‘different’ growing up. It was a huge in Ireland at the time to be born out of wedlock so there was a stigma attached.

I am realising now that her behaviour is likely caused by a mixture of things, attachment issues, low IQ, learned behaviour, maybe she has a developed a personality disorder but it would be hard to get her to see that fir herself and go to therapy.

@Hailtomyteeth no i didn’t see your post. Was it bad?

To answer some posters about therapy for myself, I’ve been to different types of counselling through the years as I’m have a lot of anger problems and body repetitive behaviours. My problems got worse when I started nannying in my 20s because I witnessed how parents are suppose to raise their children, also when I started studying psychology a few years ago, I started to process things all over again. It’s a never ending process. I’m currently in CBT but strangely my mother doesn’t come up, my dad comes up but my mother doesn’t that often. When she does, it’s too difficult for me to access my emotions about her. I did more of a ‘talking therapy’ before but it was only for 6 weeks and I didn’t really feel comfortable with my counsellor, she was quite young which made me think she wouldn’t understand. I didn’t really find it helpful to talk over and over again about it so maybe something more intensive and long term would be better. I definitely need it before I go into working with vulnerable people, I have a lot flaws, sometimes obscured views about things. If anyone recommends any therapy or therapist, I’d be interested in hearing as normal NHS counselling doesn’t seem to cut it. I do have a supervisor actually and think I will chat to them on my next supervision. I’m in the very early stages ages of training as you might be able tell from my naivety with some things.

It is comforting to hear that others have had similar relationships with their parents but also sad that’s it’s not uncommon.

i think maybe if your mother is on the autistic spectrum and also with that amount of trauma and so many children, then it would explain why she had obsessions, difficulty managing emotions and expectations, and lack of executive function with regards to looking after her children, household and holding down a functioning relationship, and rejection senstivive dysphoria is also a common part of ASD which would explain why she cannot cope with criticism, and impaired theory of mind would explain why she cannot understand your point of view.
I think you might well be right about it, but obviously there is no treatment for autism, and sometimes when family members suspect autism, it becomes all about making the person accept theyre autistic in order to get help for it, but the reality is, there isnt any help unless its things like help with organisation and cleaning etc. Its really easy for it to be taken as an accusation - being accused of being abnormal, rather than a genuine wish to help them understand themselves. Its a very different situation than when someone pursues their own diagnosis